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Sexual interaction

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by jmervyn, May 29, 2015.

  1. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Well, THAT got your attention, didn't it?

    Friday afternoon, so may as well be random: I used to be ignorant enough to think that certain behavior had to do with religious and moral upbringing, rather than current culture. I always thought it was pretty stupid to have those old Victorian rules about men talking with men and women talking with women... yet as I've aged, I have realized that upbringing doesn't necessarily have that much to do with it.

    I'm not really a misogynist, but my opinion of female behavior has decreased to a far degree greater than than that towards male behavior. My mother raised me with the false impression that all women were saints, truth-tellers, and unfairly suppressed, so my un-learning of Leftist dogma is part of this decrease.

    When I went to university I was stunned by how poorly I did in the dating scene - a continuation of my bad track record in high school - since I wasn't interested in "hook up" culture but in something meaningful. The trite saying of "nice guys finish last" simply didn't explain the way that while many girls/women would make a hard play for me, all would treat me like something to be scraped off their shoes once they felt they had my attention.

    My wife explained to me the psychological version of 'the birds and the bees' and it stunned me - not only that my own mother was either so delusional or such a liar, but that women went through life in this psychotic fashion. A recent essay caught my eye (I can't open the link at work any longer due to filtering) which sums up the issue well - basically men who behave decently to women get treated like shyte, where men who treat women like shyte have to use a razor scraper to get the girls away. The article's claim is that this is instinctual behavior, processed through the filter of modern society.

    I think the article is worth consideration, but there's more. I recall a couple of years back being at a party with my wife, and talking freely to a British woman (I forget if she was a divorcee). I didn't much like her, and dropped a couple of comments which would have made it clear that I was sneering at her, if she had been listening - yet I learned from my wife that she and all the other 'frenemies' insisted that I had been flirting heavily rather than dissing.

    In like fashion, a married father of one of my boy's martial-arts classmates is the sort of fugly lowbrow self-absorbed road-worker jackass straight out of a New York movie stereotype casting call, yet a very good looking, highly intelligent and educated Indian woman whose son is friends with mine ensures that she sits close enough for him to lick her jeans.

    So looking back, I have realized that what I considered a diseased mentality - not just in Indiana with Techno's population (which in fairness he dislikes) but everywhere I've lived - is apparently the norm and it is I who am anomalous.

    Is it perverted of me to think that talking to someone of the opposite sex is NOT an attempt to maneuver them into sex? Why is that the immediate assumption on so many people's mind?

    Are we really such an immature species that we accept Bernie Sanders' claims as reasonable?

    Or is it that our society has devolved either due to or simultaneously with the so-called sexual revolution, to the point that we over-sexualize every aspect of our interactions?
     
  2. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    I'm not sure what your point is, but here are a few random thoughts about your posting:

    The nice guys finish last: Yes, they do, but "last" might involve a bit of time. However, I think we learned from Star Wars (Ep 4-6, of course) that princesses love rogues.

    Regarding your mother, I think you should come to peace with her. She's probably the only person in the world who might (not will) love you unconditionally. You know her better than me, but you might also be more biased about her than I am. I think you made her a bit too much a part of your view of the world. When the right opportunity comes, forgive her (in your eyes, not in hers). If you are sincere, she will probably burst out in tears and feeling the love of a mother makes up a lot of what most men are yearning for.

    Interacting with women does definitely include a bit of a "have sex with her" option for men, but that's also a matter of her behaviour, although I'm not well enough into the minds of women about adjucating to which extent it is the other way around. I guess if a woman strips naked and jumps on my waist for whatever reason, something is going to happen a bit below. Blame evolution or biology for it, but quickies are a part of male reproduction strategies.

    In extreme situations, not even the consent of the woman may be required. That's why wars usually involve a certain amount of rape. I can hardly imagine to be able to perform such a deed, but there are certainly enough men who would do that if they can get away with it.
     
  3. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Well, it's two-pronged. First is that girls like assholes, per the article, but that's an instinctual thing more than I used to believe.
    Second is why must personal interaction (I debated the thread title of "sexual relations" but that would have been over-egging the pud-ding) incessantly be reduced to a sexual, even puerile level?
    Did you read the article? Please do; it's short & easy. I recall another, which even though it was political in content, discussed the logical issue of "nice guys finish last" in somewhat technical terms with an interesting allegory of the "Tit for Tat" game theory concept.

    That ship sailed long ago, and I'll be visiting in the fall & praying for peace! I hold her in the highest respect - she was a single mom back when it was completely unacceptable - but part of her raising me was painting herself in the role of an unimpeachable authoritative goddess. Not much unconditional love to be found - I'm supposed to grovel & be grateful though she hates herself when she recognizes that's her attitude.

    The few times I went to her for motherly affection I got figuratively bitch-slapped; for all her far-left socialist mindset she's incredibly like the Hoosiers which Techno despises (despises poor people, massively aloof and arrogant, warm outward personal but very little human kindness off-camera, &c.) I don't doubt that she's in part responsible for my political beliefs, since she's very like a large number of the Progressive Democrat women such as our next President.

    Still, this isn't intended to be about Freudian psychology...

    This is another reason I thought it would be an interesting discussion topic. Not only are the cultural differences worth exploring, but the New Left that controls the collegiate population (and thereby the young culture) would scream all manner of claims about fascism at you for these comments. It's become quite a clown show here in the U.S., way beyond Gamergate, to the point of demands to remove a bronze statue from 2006 because the male figure is "man-spreading".

    So much for Captain Morgan (rum)...
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2015
  4. Technomancer

    Technomancer IncGamers Member

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    Damn, I could have written the intro for that essay...

    I used to always be the incorrigible nice guy doormat. I would bend over backwards for girls I liked, but to no avail. I kinda had the Gamma male thing going on the surface, but just under that thin veneer I was a total marshmallow. By the time I figured some things out, I was so beaten down, I just didn't care anymore. I've figured out a lot of things since then, but frankly, I'm just left feeling like it's not worth the trouble. My own parents being more like roommates than a married couple (they're still together, somehow) as far back as I can remember was less than inspiring. Pretty much every other relationship I've been in a position to personally witness is also less than inspiring. Either one person owns the other one, they hate each other, one or both cheat, and/or it's fly-by-night. The few that do seem to be going alright also tend to be the most boring, emasculated, and plastic people on the face of the earth. Wtf.

    As for why everyone assumes a guy talking to a girl is trying to "get some", it's just the safe bet across the male species. It's obviously not always the case (for many guys IT IS ALWAYS THE CASE), but if you bet money on every inter-gender interaction that the guy was at least "interested", you'd be a rich man.

    As to why inter-gender interaction can tend towards the flirtatious, I've got some ideas. First of all, flirting is fun. :p Can't really deny that. Further though, from the man's perspective, I think it's from a primal fear and loathing of the dreaded "Friend Zone". Some men are fine being locked away inside the friend zone, but most aren't, even if they are otherwise spoken for, even if they aren't even trying to get some. It's like a cat pawing at the door incessantly, just to sit there like a asshole after you drag your lazy butt off the couch to open it. They (sub)consciously like the idea of having the option. As such, a lot of men automatically make sure that they come across as a piece of meat for sale by flirting. If they just come across as a normal human being interacting with another human being and express friendliness/friendship that way, chances are quite good it'll stay that way. I know this from extensive personal experience. On the other hand, striking up a friendship by being a sexual man interacting with a presumably sexual woman will at least provide a framework for the idea, making more than just friendship more plausible, even if it would never be acted upon. Also, if this behavior makes the woman disinterested, then the man won't have to "waste his time" on someone who has no chance of being more than a friend. Now, how much of this is conscious or subconscious can vary wildly from person to person, I think it's mostly subconscious with most people. The social acceptability of such discourse has obviously increased over time, you can make moral judgements about that as you wish. I think it's just people saying what they've always thought.

    Also, did I mention that it's fun? :D

    The attraction to assholes part is the real head-twister. It's primate behavior and makes me want to punch kittens.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2015
  5. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Pretty sure we've both discussed the issue in years past.
    I take exception to this bit. My marriage may not be thrill-a-minute (though my wife's Italian bullying & my PTSD must be loads of fun for boyo) but we're over 25 years at this point. I find the truly plastic to be the ones like the aforementioned construction worker steroid addict guy who views other people as nothing but sexual rivals or sexual prey.
    This is what I thought was a Hoosier issue at first, but am sad to be sadly mistaken about. New Yorkers are worse, if anything. I take deep offense at the way that I can't talk with a friend's wife without the friend being present lest presumably I throw her into a closet and savage her - it puts me in mind of the behavior of ISIS and assorted tribal cultures. I thought Western Civilization was supposed to be some sort of pinnacle?
    One of the best waitresses we ever had was in Oakbrook - her behavior would have been considered incredibly flirtatious, but not only was it asexual, but she did it with both my wife & I. I guess my gripe is that the default assumption for pleasant social behavior is now inherently sexual intent. It's like my work environment - all but a handful of the "younger" female staff (as well as nearly all of the not-so-younger) could be imagined as pulling up their skirts and gyrating when I talk to them... if I thought like that. Yet they're (happily?) married and many have kids; they're not trying to get me to bend them over the computer and have my way.
    That's a given. I don't see where the demarcation between the primate flirtatious behavior and the thuggish Bernie Sanders fantasy exists, though. If the post-modern-feminist mentality about "all men are potential rapists", and men are believed to behave in such fashion, then how can all the shrieking and carrying on be in any way valid?

    Put another way, if society has to "train" men not to rape, and society is an EBIL patriarchy, then isn't this completely contradictory? If women are going to be all about the va-jay-jay, then isn't that equally contradictory?
     
  6. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    OK, I did.

    Before point 5, I thought "oh my, that guy got it wrong", but then he hit the nail on the head, at least with respect to those women which he finds attractive.... those who feel attracted to men with a a certain amount of a badass impression. He's also right with saying that most men don't want the girls who want real arseholes, at least not for long.

    However, I wouldn't say that all women are like that. Just like there are men with badass and non-badass behaviour, there are also women who will finally decide for a the non-asshole. At the end, things like character compatibility become the dominant factor while things like physical attractiveness first impression to the other have a greater impact at the beginning of a relationship.
     
  7. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Sadly, the converse hasn't been the case in my experience (and presumably Techno's) - (American?) females seem predisposed to confuse vile asswipes with real men.

    Sure, my wife for a partial example, but that's not the topic.

    In point of fact, my wife would probably have greater tangible respect for someone who regularly beat the shit out of her when not committing adultery (AKA "nice Italian boy", according to her mildly disappointed Sicilian grandmother) such as members of the evil branch of her family did, rather than just someone who is in every way her superior but once in a while gets tired of crap and puts her in her place (echoing her own neurotic Italian mother & Irish father/war hero).**

    **
    Perhaps that's why some cultural mixes seem to work well together - Italians/Mexicans with Irish, Germans with Scots, that sort of thing. That also might be why "opposites attract" often has real-world meaning; my wife is far more "street smart" than I would ever desire being.

    However, the topic is the sheer number of biddable and mate-able women who desire to cleave to someone who is either a horrid person <because of what makes them horrid> or who treats them fairly badly. Why does someone cling to the crotch of a person who really doesn't much care what happens to them, or worse? There's definitely some men who fall into this category, but the vast majority are women...
     
  8. Technomancer

    Technomancer IncGamers Member

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    I may have been *slightly* hyperbolous, but not much. I know relatively healthy, functional relationships with relatively normal people exist, but my limited first-hand exposure to it has made me somewhat cynical about relationships.

    Yeah, people suck all over. I have a hunch though that what you're talking about here might have less to do with you specifically or "ALL MEN ARE SEX HOUNDS!!1!" and more to do with HER and/or said friend's relationship. One of them may have cheated in the past (even if he cheated, he may be just as paranoid because he thinks he's got it coming) or he may just be the jealous sort (and she may encourage it for various PRIMATE reasons). Even if you experience this from multiple people, hey, people suck.

    Another possibility is that you innocently and completely unwittingly have some kind of confident "dad-swagger" that women find irresistible and other men know it. ;) At this chapter in your life, your moral fortitude may be the only thing keeping you from swimming in a veritable sea of...

    Ahem, whew, that went sideways... :p

    Now I think this kind of stuff can all be summed up as teasing. It's the entire business model of Hooters (not chicken wings as we are led believe). Even if there are absolutely no intentions behind it, women instinctively know (and/or are taught by their mothers as my mother and sister both were) that by teasing men (and maybe even other women to some degree), they may be able to get more of what they want from them, be it tips, favors, favoritism, etc. Men attempt to do the same with flattery. So, if there likely won't be negative repercussions for a certain type and degree of behavior, why not give it a whirl? If it doesn't accomplish anything, at least it was probably somewhat entertaining or endearing. As for the waitress, she was very clever: she treated both of you the same way so your wife wouldn't be offended by the way she was treating you. You were the main target, and it worked. You remember her to this day and I imagine your tips were more generous than they may have otherwise been.

    Well, first of all "all men are potential rapists" is as ludicrus as all men are potential carjackers. It's another example of people going way too far to make a point. Is there "too much rape going on"? o_O Obviously. Do men still have intrinsic advantages over women in our society? Sure. Are there things that can and should be done about it? Yeah. But people take things too far to make the point and end up discrediting themselves and allowing people who don't want to hear to shut it off. They think that being a carnival barker about it is the only way to get attention, but it's counterproductive. It doesn't mean they're entirely wrong, but they are shooting themselves in the foot. To the article, there's nothing wrong with trying to educate men (in order to reach the ones that were never taught basic human decency, but are still salvageable), and likewise, there's nothing wrong with teaching women to defend themselves or to not act like strippers or drunks out in public because someone may try to hurt them.

    On a lighter note, I'm reminded of a social commentary from one of the great philosophers of our time:

     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2015
  9. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    The problem here is the concept of "normality". There's a failure to consider the "Overton Window" regarding social aspects. Case in point is homosexuality; not even a decade ago it was regarded as the "perversion" it is (as in less than 4% of the population), where now those who fail to applaud it sufficiently are regarded as the perverts (and punished by law).

    In this case, the epitome of plastic, Cher, was initially regarded as a freak show but now has somehow become a grande dame of Hollywood. People accept and applaud the shallow and trite - watch any YouTube commentator - while rejecting actual depth or meaning. The Kardashians would not exist otherwise - a media empire built upon a sex tape?

    It seems more to do with a clannish attitude from the sexual tribe - as in, the women gossiping with each other. That's why I used to think of it as ignorance & provincialism.

    That part's undeniable - but I work among hundreds of alpha studs so it's not a great cross to bear, and many of them look better and are younger than I.

    It's when I enter the 'real world' that those males trying hard to be an alpha stud appear as the huge throbbing hemorrhoids they are. Plus they're New Yorkers and so resemble Anthony Wiener more than they do Chris Kyle.

    Exactly so - and my wife paid the bill just to reinforce the approval. Normally we reserve that trick for when a waitress is hitting on me in front of her.

    Yes, but the sexual witch trials are nonsensical - the rape going on is in the ghetto and in ISIS-controlled territory, not college campuses. The "1 in 5" is a particular case of extreme bullshit spewed for profit by partisans.

    Dave's very good; I never saw as much of his material as I would have liked...
     
  10. LozHinge the Unhinged

    LozHinge the Unhinged IncGamers Member

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    I'm just trying to baseline the meaning of the term "perversion" here.

    a. homosexuality
    b. use of condoms
    c. women drivers
    d. education of women
    e. working on the Sabbath
    f. Methodists
    g. being unclear as to who the "Kardashians" are (Star Trek?)
    h. anti-biotics
    i. any technology less than 2000 years old

    Any assistance here will be gratefully accepted ... or possibly mocked. Thank you!
     
  11. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Thank you very much for understanding my point. Sad that you had to go out of your way so far to do so, and fail so badly in the attempt.

    On your item "g", I wonder if under 4% of the population is unclear on who the Kardashians are? Is the ignorance deliberate? Call me Uncle Mervy...

    However, while we can kick around the topic of gender ala Bruce Jenner (we can throw in race, if you like), that's really better for a separate thread.
     
  12. LozHinge the Unhinged

    LozHinge the Unhinged IncGamers Member

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    Agreed. A new, almost immediately locked, thread will be better :D
     
  13. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Wait, what do you mean "immediately locked"? The "party of science", remember?


    But seriously, this thread ought to be saved for griping about changing social norms SPECIFICALLY referencing flirting, shaming, and the like.
     
    LozHinge the Unhinged likes this.
  14. Technomancer

    Technomancer IncGamers Member

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    I think our ideas of plastic aren't quite lining up. My use of it was more of the "fake, materialistic, always having to keep up appearances/keep up with the Joneses" types.

    He's one of the funniest people of our age as far as I'm concerned. He hasn't found the super-spotlight much to his liking though (VERY understandably) and has dialed his activities back quite a bit.
     
  15. ADest

    ADest IncGamers Member

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    Hey, there's only two types of guys. The nice guy & the asshole. And there's only three kinds of girls, the dumb bitch, the crazy bitch, & the straight up bitch. The dumb bitch believes in Jesus & Faeries & that if she's ever raped, her body has a way to make sure she doesn't get pregnant. So this dumb bitch will go to a party & drink herself down & the nearest asshole/assholes will put her beliefs to the test. The crazy bitch on the other hand, believes in things like Obama, interacial marriage & female liberation. She'll be at the same party, offering to drink any man to the floor, because she's not like her grandma, she can do anything a man can, only better! So when she inevitably hits the floor the pack of assholes will get to work filming the next internet gang bang. Rinse, wash, & repeat the above scenario a few times. An abortion or 2 (or 20) here & there, & both the dumb bitch & the crazy bitch start to realize they've been dumb & crazy while all men are assholes. Armed with this new knowledge they graduate to being plain old bitches. These bitches then marry a nice guy & make his life a living hell, because, hey, deep down inside he's just another asshole, right?
     
  16. LozHinge the Unhinged

    LozHinge the Unhinged IncGamers Member

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    ^^ did you used to be YESDICK on alt.music.yes?

    Throw in a "pansy ass" or two into your next posting and I won't believe you can possibly be anyone else!
     
  17. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    You used to hang around alt.music.yes? o_O


    In fairness to ADest, his "crazy" variety seems to be very much like "Mattress Girl", of "Kirsten Gillibrand" AKA Sexy Senator AKA Tina Rutnick's acclaim:

    ' I was honored to invite as my guest Emma Sulkowicz, the Columbia University student who has inspired us all with her performance art piece "Carry That Weight" in which she carries her mattress everywhere she goes to symbolize the burden she carries every single day as long as her rapist is still on campus.' - Tina Rutnick

    Sorry, yes - I was being to cute for you.




     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2015
  18. LozHinge the Unhinged

    LozHinge the Unhinged IncGamers Member

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    Back in its hay day, yes.
    It was as vibrant and stimulating a group of knuckle-headed window-lickers as it's been my pleasure to interact with. Good times.
    I even found out stuff about Yes, upon occasion.
     
  19. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    Three types of women and all are bitches, as well as nice guys and assholes, that drawer system makes an impression of a "For people like me, you are either dumb or predictable " pseudo-wisdom. That's actually a mix of wishful thinking, vanity and an excuse for some kind of eccentric behaviour.

    Don't get me wrong, many kinds of eccentricism have a certain, not so small margin of acceptable excuses!
     
  20. Ariadne

    Ariadne IncGamers Member

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    Some guys are real jerks, basically looking for everything their mother is in doing all the cooking and cleaning and buying their knickers, but with the bonus they can have sex with her;
    Some women are right emptyheaded, thinking about expensive handbags and just looking for a rich guy to marry so they can buy said handbags, talking of girlpower and equality but don't apply this to paying - in turns! - for going out for dinner.

    But we're all individuals. Of course there are nice guys who treat women with respect and have a good, equal relationship with their gf or wife. Of course there are nice women who don't want to be dependent on the guy whether emotionally or financially.

    But it's less spectacular to write about and it's not what Famous Nobodies say so it's not very popular. You can spent forever getting the unpleasant things confirmed, or see that there are acceptions and that if you look, there's love and kindness to be found aswell.
     

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