Latest Diablo 3 News
Support the site! Become a Diablo: IncGamers PAL - Remove ads and more!

Runefinding Calculator - Countess vs LK vs Travincal vs Cows

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by Luhkoh, Mar 6, 2019.

  1. Luhkoh

    Luhkoh Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2019
    Messages:
    402
    Likes Received:
    650
    Trophy Points:
    166
    EDIT: See version 2 of calculator HERE

    Hi everyone. As I'm sure will become more and more apparent, I really like to do some practical D2 math, and even better if I can get a reusable calculator/spreadsheet from it. @Gripphon 's runefinding guide is one of my favorite posts ever, and I reference it all the time. (Link to guide - If you haven't read this, do so...multiple times) Put these two things together, and out comes my:

    Runefinding Calculator (google sheets, click to access)

    And here's a screenshot of what it looks like.

    [​IMG]

    With RFL right around the corner, I thought it the perfect time to post this spreadsheet I'd been working on. I would have liked to include a sheet for round 3 as well, but the difficulty in counting monsters minions and bosses, combined with the need to differentiate ghost-types, made it impractical. I'll table that idea, but here we have LK, trav, cows, and ...countess!

    I have recalc'd countess's drop rates for 1.13b+ which I haven't seen posted here anywhere. You'll get a peek at these in this sheet, but I figured the tables themselves, as well as description of the calc, deserved their own post. I'll plan to write up that post in a few weeks or whenever, unless someone really wants to see it earlier.

    Hope some of you find it useful/enjoyable! And let me know if there is any confusion or suggestions!
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
    TedDeeBoy, peytron, Friiser and 12 others like this.
  2. MizzouFTW

    MizzouFTW Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2008
    Messages:
    566
    Likes Received:
    704
    Trophy Points:
    234
    This is absolutely beautiful. Thank you so much!
     
    sir_cyclops and Luhkoh like this.
  3. Luhkoh

    Luhkoh Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2019
    Messages:
    402
    Likes Received:
    650
    Trophy Points:
    166
    No problem! Glad you like it!
     
  4. sir_cyclops

    sir_cyclops Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2019
    Messages:
    437
    Likes Received:
    672
    Trophy Points:
    151
    Nice work :)
     
  5. Haywire

    Haywire Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2010
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    12
    Nice. I have not put on my math hat for many moons. Bravo
     
  6. Ghonn

    Ghonn Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2018
    Messages:
    90
    Likes Received:
    185
    Trophy Points:
    32
    Ohhh yeaah! I don't exactly love math crunching myself but I do like tinkering with calculators. This will be added next to Silospen's in my bookmarks. Awesome!
     
  7. T72on1

    T72on1 Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2016
    Messages:
    4,882
    Likes Received:
    3,979
    Trophy Points:
    236
    Very sweet. Thanks !!
     
  8. Babyhell

    Babyhell Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2019
    Messages:
    728
    Likes Received:
    774
    Trophy Points:
    190
    Thank you very much, well done !
     
  9. Luhkoh

    Luhkoh Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2019
    Messages:
    402
    Likes Received:
    650
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Thanks everyone! Hope it's handy for RFL as well as general use. I plan to use it to see what psetting is best for my weak poisonmancer at cows, provided I can get to where I can handle p1 :p
     
  10. ffs

    ffs Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2017
    Messages:
    1,460
    Likes Received:
    2,695
    Trophy Points:
    188
    Great job putting this together! Added to the list of things to include in the 101 guide once I get around to it. ;)

    IMO it makes sense to also include other areas like Arcane Sanctuary, CS or Pits. Especially with the seal trick recently discussed again. Different drop odds indeed make it difficult, but you could just refer to monster kills with the lowest drop odds. That’s because people will need to count monster kills over time on their individual maps anyway before using this, for any area outside LK/Trav. This needs to be done reviewing a number recorded runs, but it’s the only precise way to do it. Then if for example a CS runner determines in such way that he kills on average 50 finger mages and 150 other monsters, he can just multiply the finger mage kills accordingly to account for different drop odds. You don’t need to do that for them. ;)

    This works for areas like AS, CS or Pits because there you actually can count kills over time based on recordings. Even though it’s some time and patience ofc. ;) For Cows, it’s very difficult because they cluster together too closely to count. Best method is probably by XP gain.

    Of course it’s the job of the player to count kills and you can’t do that for them either :) just wanted to point out that it’s crucial to compare other areas to LK and Trav (technically just LK, but in Trav we have a fixed amount).

    Again thanks for the spreadsheet, I’m sure I’ll get back to it in the future!
     
  11. Pb_pal

    Pb_pal Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2004
    Messages:
    2,075
    Likes Received:
    2,114
    Trophy Points:
    233
    Awesome stuff!
     
  12. Luhkoh

    Luhkoh Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2019
    Messages:
    402
    Likes Received:
    650
    Trophy Points:
    166
    @Pb_pal Thanks!

    @ffs So i think I agree with what you're saying, and I'd love to have a round 3 comparison up, so if you can think of a decent way for me to implement this in the sheet, I can likely get it created quickly. Some of the reasons I abandoned it at the time are

    1. Just thinking that most users aren't going to record their runs and count their monsters. And unlike the other targets in the sheet, I don't think you can make a reasonable estimate of monsters killed without recording and counting like you mentioned. However I think I agree with you this isn't a reason not to include it, as some of the runners who are recording and counting may enjoy using it.

    2. Bosses and champions also have different drop rates. In cows the ratio of normals to bosses is so huge that it's just ignored, but in something like pit/tunnels/cs, I would guess it would be more significant. So you'd need to know avg # bosses/run.

    3. I see what you're saying about the player being able to multiply their own ghost-types, but I don't see it as an issue to include that as an input, I more just meant this added to the complexity of accurate use, which I discussed in point #1. What I do see as an issue is the fact that AS is a different alvl, requiring its own TC odds calc. Which again I can implement if we think it would be helpful. Also do vizier's minions drop like any regular alvl 85 minions? I wasn't sure about that, but I think the answer is yes.

    Basically what it boils down to is I thought that gathering decent inputs for round 3 was so difficult that the people willing to do it wont get much utility from the spreadsheet. As by that point they've done so much work that calcing the efficiency is a small extra step. What do you think? What do you think would be helpful for you if you were doing RFL this year? And thanks for the feedback! It's much appreciated.

    And one last thing is that I would think a method such as the jewel counting method discussed last year would be easier and just as good as recording/counting for trying to gauge something like seal glitching. Just another thought. But let me know what you think would be useful and I'll get it in there!
     
    ffs likes this.
  13. ffs

    ffs Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2017
    Messages:
    1,460
    Likes Received:
    2,695
    Trophy Points:
    188
    I don’t have a drop calc available so I could be wrong about this, but IIRC in terms of runes, the higher drop odds from boss packs are rather marginal no?

    As for counting/estimating: The jewel method is not really reliable unless it’s based on a huge number of runs. Don’t know the exact jewel drop rate by heart atm, but odds are low enough so that the variance even over hundreds of runs is potentially massive. I trust the XP gain method more for Cows specifically, but it only works there (somewhat). In all other areas it’s possible to count from recordings, it’s the only really precise way.

    Don’t know how much work it is to include AS, but (subject to more testing) it’s probably one of the best RF areas in the game, so... could be worth it. :) I might very well run it for RFL R3. I guess you’re right for other areas it’s indeed just a tab added to the sheet, since basically all input and most work needs to come from the player.

    Also you’re probably right that if players do count, they probably won’t "need" it, but it would still be great to have a comprehensive tool. ;) Similar to @Owlie's MF spreadsheet, where you could quickly compare certain results to other areas, run times, boss numbers etc. for any viable target.
     
  14. Luhkoh

    Luhkoh Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2019
    Messages:
    402
    Likes Received:
    650
    Trophy Points:
    166
    @ffs If I'm understanding things right from the drop calculator (haven't yet done a full treasure class drop calc for this), then the bosses themselves drop ~3x as many runes as minions/normals and each champion drops 1.5x as many. So if you have 7 bosses and 6 champs or something in pits, maybe it changes your effective monsters from ~180 to to 197. So nothing crazy, but fairly significant.

    On the jewel method, I'm not sure how much less accurate it is than counting and assuming that stays the same, but I read back through last years rfl stuff and I think it was nano that made the excellent point that you have to invest way more time to evaluate the efficiency with that method over the counting one.

    I appreciate the input and have a few ideas. Yeah I think I have a good one for comparing AS to other areas, I'll see what I can do! I'll keep you informed!

    And I'll take any even potential comparison to owlie's sheet. So thanks! That thing is awesome.

    Edit: If I do get a rough draft of something working for round 3, I plan to include pits, chaos, and arcane. Any other relevant targets? I don't know of any that might compare.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
    ffs likes this.
  15. ffs

    ffs Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2017
    Messages:
    1,460
    Likes Received:
    2,695
    Trophy Points:
    188
    Yeah that’s exactly what I meant re the jewel method. In other words: If you count monsters for say 50 runs, yes I would think the average result of that is much more trustworthy than extrapolating from jewel drops over say 500 runs. Of course it’s tedious either way, and I never counted more than 10-15 runs worth of monsters ;) but I felt that already gives you a good idea normally.
     
  16. Gripphon

    Gripphon Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2009
    Messages:
    3,127
    Likes Received:
    1,910
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Counting all runes drop is also solid method. We know exactly the odds of runes to drop and calculate expected number of runes to drop across running we did or estimate kills from them. It may be better that way since we do talk about runes in here. Combining both runes and jewels leads to more reliable values across less runs done.
     
  17. jonnyphive

    jonnyphive Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2018
    Messages:
    565
    Likes Received:
    669
    Trophy Points:
    188
    This is great. Whenever I get around to needing to pick a target for finding a specific rune (say, with my untwinked zon), I'll certainly come back to this as a reference. Thanks!
     
  18. Luhkoh

    Luhkoh Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2019
    Messages:
    402
    Likes Received:
    650
    Trophy Points:
    166
    @ffs @Gripphon All makes sense, but I assume competitors don't want to waste time picking up el runes. I think the idea is you just pick up all jewels/sc's/gc's, which I'm guessing everyone does this and mules without identifying anyways. And then by the end of a set the total number of those would provide an excellent estimate I think. Are any higher level runners willing to save and count all these for use with future data?

    But I agree the recording and counting method could be used to get a good estimate much much quicker. And I've already started a spreadsheet that I think will be pretty nice!

    Do either of you mind sharing any #wraith, #non wraiths, runtimes, psetting, and which seal bosses are killed for these 3 runs? 3 runs meaning pits, CS, and Arcane. I'll look back through the 2018 thread as well. But I wouldn't mind having some decent data in the sheet while I'm making it. It actually almost done (spent way too much time at work on it today :p) But I'll probably need to do some decent checking for a couple of days to get it not completely riddled with mistakes.

    If someone has time to take a look at my sheet for some basic checking as well, that would be nice. Who is into this kinda thing? Maybe @T72on1 or @NanoMist ? Just guessing.
     
  19. Gripphon

    Gripphon Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2009
    Messages:
    3,127
    Likes Received:
    1,910
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Runes don't have to be picked up, just counted if encountered. We did same method on one RFL when areas were run to compare Pit and CS (when we came to conclusion CS is much superior). In general many things can be picked up for statistics. It is simple for all areas except Cows where cluttering problem might hide some items.
     
    Luhkoh likes this.
  20. T72on1

    T72on1 Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2016
    Messages:
    4,882
    Likes Received:
    3,979
    Trophy Points:
    236
    Sorry, but I can't see myself finding time for it :(.
     
    Luhkoh likes this.

Share This Page