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Run times for different areas / targets

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by T72on1, Feb 14, 2017.

  1. T72on1

    T72on1 IncGamers Member

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    This one has been bugging me for quite a while now, so here it finally goes … As most regulars here will know, ever since joining the SPF, I have been trying to increase my efficiency. And thanks to the great advice given, I have the feeling I have actually been able to do so.


    However, when people talk about run times, for Travincal, CS runs, AT runs, … I still have the feeling that I’m downright slow. Problem is that a lot of those posts about run times, which I take as a point of reference, come from true D2 veteran pros, like @Gripphon and @Grape for example. I have absolutely no problem with being slower than someone like those. I'm just wondering though, if I'm truly slow (and if so, what can be done about it), or if I'm just as fast as your everyday SPF member, and it's basically me having a wrong view on reality because of the top tier players.

    What really started this was running times of sub 40 seconds mentioned for /p1 AT and 18 seconds for /p3 Travincal,as those are 2 areas I feel like I'm starting to really master. So for me seeing those run times were really discouraging.

    So I was thinking this could be a place where people post their run times for various areas and targets. Not as a thread where people show off their best efforts (iirc there is another thread for that), but just their average running times. And not only the top tier players, but as many people as possible, so that people can get a good view of what they can consider slow, average, fast and very fast run times.

    Obviously this thread isn't only about the run times themselves. I also would like this to be a place where people share tips on how to get faster, and in general just improve their runs.

    I'll start off with some of my run times. Feel free to add any other areas / targets than the ones I'm mentioning here. Maybe I forgot them, maybe I just don't run them (yet), ... I can only add a few of my own, since I haven't done many of the obvious targets like (Meph, Andy (skipped those with my Sorc), Pits, Cows (no Enigma yet). But I already wanted to get this going, so ...

    O yes, some areas are obvious, while other areas might need a bit more explanation, since they can be run in different ways. CS for example, I only included 2 seals (Vizier and Infector) runs, because that's what I did on my way from 97 to 98. Obviously there's Diablo runs as well, which would net completely different times.

    Last note: not sure about other people, but for me run times means everything done ingame included (stashing, id'ing, ...), muling off in GoMule not included. So basically the number you see under 'average running time' when using Run Counter.

    My run times, all with Blizz Sorc:

    LK p7 (dual campfire): 35 sec
    Travincal p3: 29 sec
    AT p1: 50 sec
    AT p7: 89 sec
    CS p7 (2 Seals): 63 sec
    Pits p1: ?
    Pits p7: ?
    Pindle p1: 18.5 sec
    Mephisto p3: ? (it's been ages since I ran him)
    Cows p7: 6 minutes or so? (with Javazon, no Enigma yet)
    Andariel p3: ? (never ran her much)
    RoF superchests p7: 20 sec
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2017
  2. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    You are quicker than me. I could probably speed up things, but it wouldn't be relaxing enough for me for something which is meant to be fun.
     
  3. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    I think idea of this thread is good. While we do have nearly all relevant data from top tier players in each category in this post, what we lack is more input from players who are not so rich nor obsessed with efficiency and can present more average results.

    What is extremely important is the method of running and items that are collected. For example, difference between not collecting and collecting gems can be big. Difference between collecting only certain items vs collecting all interesting rares could also make up for considerable difference in runtimes. There are players who never bothered collecting pgems for example and naturally those have considerable advantage over others who do collect them. This is why I had to split some categories between gem and non-gem because it just makes that much difference. Someone who collects gems and good items and interesting rares will never be able to challenge someone who says "screw gems and interesting rares". So such info is really important to give too.

    I could share some info about each area and what makes up for big difference in runtimes, sometimes it is almost impossible to compare.

    LK: big big difference is do you target only superchests or use a lot of time on poppables too. I used to ignore poppables completely when doing LK running for example, while testing with poppables just convinced me targeting mostly only superchests with maybe 2 close poppables is as good as it gets. Someone who clicks like 10 poppables per run won't be ever be able to get even close to someone who runs in my way.

    Travincal p3: gems make up for most difference here. Also have in mind 20 hour limitation made some players like me to squeeze as much time into running as they could, even if it means visiting gomule every few minutes to drop collected items from inventory. This is the only way to get those 18 seconds running times (actually 17.5), or if you simply ignore gems. For more realistic everyday running, sorc could at best aim for 19.5 average time by collecting gems and messing up with stash/cubing (best reported result on 100 runs is ~19.1 average). But this is not how things are ran for competitive farming like RFO with limited amount of time. Get 6x4 inventory space and drop items in gomule every 10-15 runs to squeeze extra 500+ runs in 20 hours. This is the major limitation of having limited amount of time at tourney unless we include gomule time into running time as well as the only solution to avoid such acrobatics. But then some players will also feel unhappy because they are messing up with gomule, that is not running, why is it counted etc... If gomule time would be also counted, I'd probably just ditch pgems and maintain my 17.5 running and voila, but you know, just saying how many problems are there to consider.

    Everything else is the same old story with collecting items, especially cows. If meticulous player who collects whole army of items runs cows, he might be easily like 50% slower than equally good player who does not collect that much...

    Meph and Andy - limited targets since those are ran only with less wealthy characters. If you try to run them with rich characters, then we should ask ourselves why should anyone do that?


    And last word - comparing top players with average players will end up in a really big difference. While top players tested the so far known limits of this game, average players could offer more info about what someone less into crazy optimizing stuff could aim for.
     
  4. Grape

    Grape IncGamers Member

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    Hey, interesting topic.

    Regarding relaxing running and the fun aspect; by pushing yourself to your limits for extended periods of time, you will find yourself much faster also when not trying 100%.

    I also slow down just a little bit when I'm not running for tournament. Not much, but little (actually lately been collecting too much rare/magic items, but that's another story).
     
  5. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    As for cows, that remains open question for now. That area was not really tested much since no one seems to have interest in it next to a Travincal. I searched some online info about how fast can builds clear cows, but came short. Most info is provided by bnet players and they don't have static maps. Some info was posted about p1 cows, that is useless obviously. General consensus is that either javazon or CE necro were the best for a task. However, no one ever mentioned necro variant I found best for cows by the tests, everyone is talking only about full summoner build as only viable.

    While we have willing necro players (myself) to test how fast can he clear cows, we lack javazon players to do the same. 3 javazons were tested and all fall in 3:30 region which is ~20 seconds slower than what necro could do. Problem is I don't like javazons and am not willing to test them anymore, and all other javazon players don't seem to play anymore. I believe Corrupted could test javazon to prove she probably might challenge necro, but he also doesn't seem to play anymore at all. Maybe javazon can do it in 2:30 and we simply don't know since no one is willing to test her properly (I did, but I don't consider myself much of a javazon player to do it at her maximum potential).

    I have found potential upgrade for necro cow runner, but can't say without a test. I'll test that before third round of RFL and then tell people the solution if it works.
     
  6. Grape

    Grape IncGamers Member

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    I think I'll compare Fire Sorc, Nec variant X and a Javazon for Cows. I guess for the last round I could as well pick the best I can.
     
  7. Korlic

    Korlic IncGamers Member

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    Are non of the council members cold immune? Also what gear do you use? I only ran them with Barb or Pala :)
     
  8. mir

    mir IncGamers Member

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    Nice thread. I'll share my run times:

    LK p7 (dual campfire): 40-45 sec
    Travincal p3: 1.40 min
    AT p1: 1.5-2 min
    AT p7: how you do it on p7??
    CS p5: will be back for it later
    Pits p1: 1.5-2 min
    Pits p7: how you do it on p7??
    Pindle p1: --- (it's been ages since I ran him)
    Mephisto p3: --- (it's been ages since I ran him)
    Cows p7: 15 min (with Javazon)
    Andariel p1: will be back for it later
    RoF superchests p7 (2 chests) : will be back for it later, but under 30 sec

    I pick up charms, gems, runes, jewels, rares and some magic items during my runs so my run times are quite high....
    Any questions about chars/gear are welcome.
     
  9. Korlic

    Korlic IncGamers Member

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    How about a Charge boltress with 200 FCR, Cows are big targets, should die quickly.
     
  10. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    Toorc is always cold immune, but breakably. Other boss can also become cold immune. With Infinity on merc, Toorc has a low chance to become unbreakably immune, like once in ~70 runs or something like that.
     
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  11. Cyrax

    Cyrax IncGamers Member

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    Never timed anything of mine, but out of interest: How do you decide average time? AT for instance i've run with something like cold sorc who is fast in that region, but also with something like an avenger pally who's considerably slower. Are you just gonna take your fastest char? Slowest? Average? Or get separate times for separate chars/builds all together?
     
  12. Grape

    Grape IncGamers Member

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    Yea, Boltress could fry individual/small group of cows pretty fast I guess. But I doubt the damage is enough compared to Javazon or CE Nec for example, those just wipe entire screens at once.
     
  13. T72on1

    T72on1 IncGamers Member

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    @Cyrax Seperate times for separate builds. Gotta love the advanced run counter for that :). And I don't have that many characters available to begin with. But working on that ;).

    Thanks for the answers so far. I know there's so many variables involved, but the goal is just to have some kind of frame as reference. Or maybe I just wanted people like @krischan and @mir, to at least feel among humans again ;).

    A bit more details about my run times, as I didn't include them in my op. Because, as @Gripphon points out, a lot depends on what you pick up and what not. Next to that also gear level and stuff.

    LK p7 (dual campfire): 35 sec

    Not much to say about this. Sorc @105fcr, without CtA early on, with it afterwards. Time is from the top of my head, as I should check my notes at home to see what it really was. Definitely slower early on, when I picked up gems, jewels, rare rings and charms and cubed up gems, something I didn't always do later on, when I really wanted to find that next HR.

    I tried different amounts of poppables to pop, but later on settled mainly for superchests. Good to see that Griptests indicate this is the way to go :). Not sure where I can improve, except for rolling an even better map than I had.

    Travincal p3: 29 sec

    Typical Blizz Sorc, although with Shako and HotO instead of Nightwing's Veil and Death's Fathom (I don't have those). 7 skillers, merc with Infinity, so all in all pretty good damage. She doesn't pick up much. Pul+, rare rings and circlets, grailers, jewels and charms only if I happen to see them immediately among all the goodies. Very good map, with all council members almost on top of each other at the left side of the balcony, 1 shrine always south of the wp and often a second one left of the balcony.

    Fastest running times are around 21 seconds iirc. The problem are the slower runs. Ever since switching from Insight to Infinity merc, I need to use a mana potion almost every run, but I sometimes need too much time finding mana potions between all the loot. Also sometimes enemies die almost instantly, whereas other times I often need to kill off quite a few of them, which makes time difference in runs also rather big.

    On a side note: I also didn't find any qualifiers in 3 hours of running. Might just be bad luck, but it makes me fear that I just don't see all drops and I miss important ones. Not sure what I can do about that? I tried killing with alt pressed, but that didn't seem to work really well.

    AT p1: 50 sec

    Same Sorc as above, but with Insight instead of Infinity and gear tweaked towards mf: still @105fcr, but without all the skillers, triple Tal's, ... Mainly picking up the same as at Travincal, although more often charms too, since they are easier to spot than in that place. O yes, and often rare boots and gloves too.

    Fastest running times around 41 sec. I'd think that I should be able to get close to that all the time, since runs don't vary much, but I always end up around 50 seconds. Not sure what I can improve, other than rolling a map where AT is closer to wp. I like my current map a lot though, so for now I take the 6 or so teleports it takes me to get to the entrance.

    AT p7: 90 sec

    Same Sorc as for Travincal, but with Insight instead of Infinity. Run times of the top of my head, so I should check my notes at home for more accuracy. Running times can definitely be improved if leaving alone smaller mobs. I'm getting better at that, but still have some bad habits from the past.

    Picking up the same as above. I really should start picking up flawless gems again, but that's the first thing I skip when wanting to keep a certain pace.

    CS p7 (2 Seals): 60 sec

    Same Sorc as above. Run times vary a lot, depending on the spawn. I really have a hard time only doing Infector and Vizier, often thinking 'hey, big mob, should kill that too'. Other times I don't see a way to snipe those 2 packs, so I need to kill more. Overall not too far below other 99er runners at my CS running peak, so not too bad I guess.

    Pindle p1: 18.5 sec

    Same Blizz mf Sorc as above. This one is all about keeping the rhythm. When I start picking up rare boots and gloves and such as well, I go to 20 sec runs or even a bit above that I think.

    Cows p7: 6 minutes or so? (with Javazon, no Enigma yet)

    Even without Enigma I think there's already some lessons to be taken from this one. Typical Javazon, although still lacking the Griffon's. Main problem is proper herding I think. I often run out of javelins near the end of the run, which I think is an indication that I should herd more cows before starting to throw. Also should leave behind those few cows that don't die in a few throws. All in all should get a lot better with Enigma. Hopefully.

    RoF superchests p7: 18 sec

    See LK Sorc. Run times vary a lot depending on monster density around the chests. Maybe I should abandon runs faster, instead of trying to lure away monsters or kill them.

    Overall my run times might not even seem that slow, but I have stopped picking up flawless gems quite a while ago, which influences run times quite a lot.
     
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  14. NanoMist

    NanoMist IncGamers Member

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    Unfortunately, I can't contribute much since most of those categories I either haven't timed or don't run much at all. No Trav runs done to any serious degree, although that'll change in RFL round 2.

    Here's a little something for the cows category. Shortly after reaching 99, I took my trapper to p7 cows for a little fun and ran a 3:45 average over 10 runs. LS + FB created corpses quickly for DS, but getting LS to target the same cows as they move around was a bit tricky at times. A bit clunky to play and felt like a poorer version of a CE necro. DS CE fires slow and is much weaker without Amp, but there are five of them to compensate. I didn't do too much running with her but I'd rate her as a 2nd tier cow runner. I'll also do more testing with other characters/builds during that one week break between RFL rounds.
     
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  15. darkstarhub

    darkstarhub IncGamers Member

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    I dont think I want to know my run times. I can tell you, its definitely not quick, but I am better than I used to be. My wrist starts to hurt and my fingers go numb if I dont pace myself(yeah, I see a carpal tunnel surgery in my future when I get older). Whats weird is that I do several different types of welding where I work, and it very seldom bothers me, which is a good thing. But, I catch myself griping the mouse really tight and that has to be part of what makes it worse. I have broken the left click on several mice because of this. Back when Critical Mass SNS Wizard was the rage in D3, my left hand would give me fits from rapidly hitting 1,2,3, and my right hand was alright.

    Historically I have done well playing the way I do. I have an extensive library of screenshots and a very high percentage of my best drops are from clickables. My LK runs definitely include more clickables than most peoples probably do, and I will kill champion and unique packs of vultures because they dont run away and go down very fast. Plus, I am one of those players that pick up most Runes, all jewels, most gems, and most charms. This came in handy recently as it took me 23 tries to get a 35% FCR Spirit, and all those Tal, Thul, Ort, Amns, along with Hels(and Dols to cube) were nice to have.

    I am jealous of you guys that can dart and port around like crazy, not die, and still get stuff done. Playing like that is not impossible for me, but I just cannot sustain it. Above all, everybody is different, and if the style you play the game suits you and makes you happy than you are doing it right.
     
  16. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    I could try to provide what I think are good starting points where things are looking to the efficient side, based on everything I've read in the past and my own playing experience. Those points are not problematic to reach, but might prove challenging which is a good thing. Every player who works on his efficiency first needs some more realistic goals. Improvements are coming little by little, even for top players.

    The following times should present reasonable checking points for players who try to increase their efficiency. Once you reach those runtimes, you are at the edge of being to the efficient side of things. Those times are meant to be both reasonable and challenging to reach. Presented times are not set in stone and those assume player is not picking whole zoo of items while running.

    Pit p7 necro: 1:40
    Pit p7 javazon: 1:30
    Pit p1 zerker: 75
    Pit p1 singer: 85
    AT p1 sorc: 45
    AT p1 barb: 60
    Pindle p1 zerker: 20
    Pindle p1 sorc: 20
    Travincal p3 barb: 45
    Travincal p3 sorc: 28
    Travincal p3 zealot: 38
    LK p7/8 mostly superchests: 25 (unless you pick up tons of stuff, rack etc.)
    Cow javazon: 5:00 (with Enigma)
    Cow nec: 5:00
    Meph p3: 35

    If you are very close or at those values, good going there. It is only a matter of time when will you improve even more.

    I think once players reach such values, they are starting to feel what efficient running is, they are starting to get used to it and then have bigger potential to improve in all other areas too. To get efficient, first you must get a feel what that even is and get used to it. Most players started by aiming similar runtimes at first, me included. In fact, until not so long ago ~45 AT running was considered a norm. But, game is still evolving in that sense. Some things are not properly tested yet and only recently we got a real idea where limits are.

    I hope those values are helpful. Majority of the players are slower than this, so whoever is at those values is already above average in that area. Normally I could be wrong about some values, somewhere overestimating, somewhere underestimating average players...
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2017
  17. T72on1

    T72on1 IncGamers Member

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    @Gripphon Thanks for those !!! I was coming here to post that it would be a good thing to have at least some reference times from fast players, and lo and behold, you already put those up :). Good to know, and nice to see I'm actually not that bad runner. Now if only drops would be accordingly, as I have been having quite bad luck with all my latest batches (AT /p1 runs, Trav /p3, my 99er in CS getting to 98, my latest batch of 2000 LK runs). Guess I'm saving it all for the not so distant future ;).

    Seeing the times posted by Gripphon, I'm surprised at @NanoMist's run times for Cows with his trapper, which are far below what I thought are the fastest runners there, Javazon and Necro. That's getting the leg included, right?

    I also realized I forgot three other major categories: Throne Room waves, Baal runs and Nihlithak runs. I have no experience with those, but @Pb_pal , @NanoMist and @Neksja probably have data for those, based on their 99ers?

    I'll add my correct running times this evening, when I should have time.
     
  18. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    I can also provide some estimations for Baal region since I ran those too.

    Throne Room waves (no Baal)

    WW barb: 3:40
    Lite sorc/javazon: 2:45
    Lite trapper: 3:15

    Baal:

    WW barb: 4:15
    Lite sorc/javazon: 3:15
    Lite trapper: 3:50

    Now more inputs will be welcomed since I'm doing this rather blindly what I feel would be good running times to aim for as a start.

    @T72on1

    NanoMist's runtimes are at top tier level in both CS rune hunting and this trapper cows. I also have no idea just how fast can some builds be, but here are tested values to have a clue what is actually possible to achieve at cows on a long run. Including getting a leg every run.

    Necro nova/revive variant: 3:10 (could be improved I think)
    Necro summoner: 3:15 (could be improved)
    Javazon: 3:30 (potential for improvement)
    Fireball sorc: 3:45
    Trapper: 3:45 (took NanoMist's value here)
    Lightning sorc: ? (could be there somewhere too)
    Hammerdin: ? (I have no freaking idea)
    Blizzard sorc: 4:15+ I assume
     
  19. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    I don't think that Baal is worth doing for MF, but for XP. Being quick at it is still useful, of course :).

    Run times depend a lot on what you are picking up. I'm picking up certain rare and magical items. Most is still left unidentified on the ground, but I have to make a quick read through it. I'm not leaving jewels and charms unidentified, not even large ones. I don't think it pays off to do e.g. LK just for runes (although that's the main objective) and without at least reading the names of the blues and yellows.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2017
  20. NanoMist

    NanoMist IncGamers Member

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    @T72on1 - Yes, the trapper cow time includes getting the leg. Standard Hoto/Spirit setup, with Phoenix shield on CTA switch for redemption. Could be a little faster with a 102 FCR C/C setup, but I don't think it can challenge necro at all.

    As for trapper Baal times, Gripphon's run time sounds about right. Nihlathak times were about 100 per hour, or 36 seconds per run. Lengthy save & exit times is the killer here.
     

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