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Rummy!

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by dantose, Mar 23, 2004.

  1. dantose

    dantose IncGamers Member

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  2. tarnok

    tarnok IncGamers Member

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    That's painful to watch.
     
  3. Stevinator

    Stevinator IncGamers Member

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    way to cut him off with out letting him explain. Intelligence said iraq was an immediate threat. so we went in. then intelligence said whoops! so crazy left wing organizations like moveon.org blame Bush. this has been hashed and rehashed. the simple fact is that only conspiracy freaks, extremists and Howard Dean (he's neither? both? I dunno.) think bush made up the WMD.

    This Clark guy coming out of the administration is saying Bush wante to go to Iraq before 9/11. Well, If he thought Iraq was on the way to making a Nuke I would've supported that.

    No one seems to be able to keep teh timeline straight. Before we were charging into Bagdad, we were all pretty sure that saddam had WMDs. Every intelligence organization in the world believed that. Top that with the thought of Terrorist training facilities, and illegal money being exchanged, that's enough to wish you could do something about him itself. then when the unthinkable happened, I don't think we had a choice...we had to hit the bad guys from every angle. Anything less would've been inviting them to try again.
     
  4. TurdFergusen

    TurdFergusen Banned

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    You're absolutely right, Rummy didn't lie, we just had to hear him out...
     
  5. Stevinator

    Stevinator IncGamers Member

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    the guy's like a million years old...it's not like he only stutters like an idiot on this subject...he always stutters like and idiot...then waves his hands around, cuz the words don't come to him right. I may support what ended up happeneing...but that doens't mean i think the guy is any sort of genius.


    Those are great rummy quotes...but it wasn't just the administration saying that iraq was dangerous. ''One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line.'' -- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

    ''If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program.'' -- President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

    ''Iraq is a long way from [here] but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face.'' -- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Feb 18, 1998

    ''He [Saddam Hussein] will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983.'' -- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

    ''[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs.'' -- Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin (D, MI), Tom Daschle (D), John Kerry (D, MA) and others Oct. 9, 1998

    ''Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process.'' -- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

    ''Hussein has . . . chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies.'' -- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

    ''There is no doubt that . . . Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies.'' -- Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001

    ''We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them.'' -- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

    ''We know that he [Saddam Hussein] has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country.'' -- Vice President Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

    ''Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.'' -- Vice President Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

    ''We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction.'' -- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

    ''The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons. . . .'' -- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

    ''I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security.'' -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

    ''There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years . . . We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction.'' -- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

    ''He [Saddam Hussein] has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do'' -- Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

    ''In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. . . . It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons.'' -- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

    ''We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction.'' -- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

    ''Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime . . . He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. . . . And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. . . . So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real. . . .'' -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

    Shaw, Jean "The Dems' Changing Tune on Iraq; Past Quotes Reveal Hypocrisy" ChronWatch Nov 30, 2003
     
  6. llad12

    llad12 IncGamers Member

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    Thanks for reminding me to renew my membership in moveon.org

    The CIA didn't believe that.

    The thought of terrorist training facilities came from from a known thief, convicted felon, and Rummy's darling: Chalabi. The UN inspectors were on the ground and had found no evidence of WMD before the war started. The inspectors were aggressively checking those sites believed by the US et. al. to be weapons sites and asked for just a few more months to complete their task. But NO, we couldn't wait ...

    BS

    The WMD were used as an excuse for war because as Wolfowitz stated: It was something they could all agree on politically.

    My timelines are quite straight .... thank you very much
     
  7. Underseer

    Underseer IncGamers Member

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    Even if he had WMD, that still doesn't make him a threat.

    He had no means of delivering WMD, and even if he did, doing so would incur our wrath and result in... well result in what's happening right now.

    Even if he used a 3rd party non-national actor (e.g. al Qa'eda), there was always the chance it would be traced back to him (considering everyone knows AQ can't manufacture such things on their own), resulting in... an invasion such as what just happened.

    Saddam is evil, not stupid. There really was no chance of him using WMD. Think about the result? He kills maybe 0.5% of our population, we wipe out his army, his government, and drag him before the World Court (or worse, turn him over to his own people). Given that kind of tradeoff, why in the world would he ever attack us?

    Oh, and the big army people keep touting? Please. If he had no way of getting WMD over here, he had even less means of moving half his army over here (not that they wouldn't be instantly spanked en route).

    WMD or not, he was never a threat, and more importantly, he is not al Qa'eda. You can talk all you want about what Saddam might have done to us, but I'm more concerned about what al Qa'eda did do to us, hence I'm upset about this whole Iraq distraction nonsense.

    Oh, and if WMD is such a big deal, then why is Bush not doing anything about Pakistan which not only has WMD, but has admitted to giving it away like it's going out of style? Please explain that.
     
  8. TurdFergusen

    TurdFergusen Banned

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    Well Stevinator, now find some quotes of those exact people denying they said those things. Then and only then the quotes you presented would be relavent to this thread. And if you do find such quotes, then, hey, all polititians are morons.
     
  9. DurfBarian

    DurfBarian IncGamers Member

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    Shut up! SHUT UP! SHUT UP!!!

    --the no-spin zone
     
  10. dantose

    dantose IncGamers Member

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    what are you doing? Can't you see a valid hijack when you see one?

    The humor was in they had a quote of him saying exactly what he had just claimed he never said. This thread was neve intended to turn immediately into a "bush good/bush bad" thread.
     
  11. Any1

    Any1 Banned

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    That's brilliant! :lol:
     
  12. TurdFergusen

    TurdFergusen Banned

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    My point exactly. There's no room for politics in this thread, just point and laugh. Dance Rummy, dance!
     
  13. dantose

    dantose IncGamers Member

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    we need pics of rummy in "bacon time" (that's bullet time but with bacon)
     
  14. Underseer

    Underseer IncGamers Member

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    Didn't you hear Stevinator? If only Rummy weren't cut off, he would have offered a perfectly reasonable explanation for telling a bald-faced lie about killing human beings. As usual, the liberal media won't let you hear that, will they?

    *sarcasm off*
     
  15. dantose

    dantose IncGamers Member

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    well, it wasn't so much about killing people, it was more like, classifying the level of threat Iraq posed.

    there were dead hookers in the trunk before I got there.
     
  16. cougar

    cougar IncGamers Member

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    oh those crazy politicians and there hijinks.
     
  17. Stevinator

    Stevinator IncGamers Member

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    well don't you think it would be nice for someone to help me find the rest of that show somewhere? i'd be interested in hearing what he had to say to that.

    and technically he never called iraq an "imminent threat'. I don't know why he keeps reminding people that he didn't use that word...everyone at the time was thinking it.

    Well, since he trained those 19 saudi kids to hijack planes he kinda did that. already. So i don't think it really would've been a leap for him.

    Evil not stupid? i imagine that his attempt to take over kuwait was really thought through. i agree he was evil...and no, he wasn't an idiot or anything...but he ws a powermonger, and he was prone to rash action. If a careful meticoulous woman like Martha stewart can get caught in a the moment, then a raving madman, who also happens to be a control freak could prolly unfurl the same way. (that's saddam I'm talking about...not dean...just for clarification :) )

    No one said he would "move his army over here" we were afraid of him doing something like help fund and aquire a suitcase bomb, or a nuke, or some other WMD. his army was mostly really old tanks and armor. We blew up all his airforce like stuff in the 91 conflict.

    i will only say this one more time--okay that's prolly a lie...i have to say this a lot.

    Iraq was not a distraction. The war in iraq is the same war as the one in afganistan, as the one in downtown new york, as the one in madrid, the same one as in yemen, and indonesia. oops, I forgot Washington DC. This is not a War on Osama Bin Laden, it's a War on Terrorism. There are people all over the world trying to blow us up. During Clinton's tenure, when the country was more worried about their stock prices than their security, (I don't think it's clinton's fault--I wish there had been more pressure on him...because I think he would've done something if there had been...but there was no pressure on him at all so he got to fool around in the oval office) Al queada was well funded, well organized, and dangerous. as they saw more and more success, they got more and more bold.

    eventually that boldness came crashing into our consciousness around 8am central time on 9/11.

    From that moment on we went out and fought terrorism on all fronts. yes i would like to see pakistanpurged of terrorists. i think the pakistani government is working with us today to make that happen. YOu say they gave WMDs to people they shouldn't have, fine I'll believe you. but now they're helping us capture the head of the beast. they can't really go back and say, hey...could I have all that stuff we sold you back? doesn't work like that...but I think when they saw what happened to us, they feared for their cities...every remotely civilized country did.

    that seems to depend on who you ask and when you asked them.

    Unfortunately everyone in the CIA is a trained liar. i doubt we'll ever discover the truth on that one.


    Someone else mantioned they didn't think those quotes were legit. I admit i can't attest to hearing them...i found them in a few different places using google. if any of the Quotes are fake fine. But i could click past the third or fourth link on google and get even more, adn i encourage you to do that same. The issue here is that everyone, dems, GOP, independents, hell even the libertarian's were convinced that saddam was dangerous. Since he likely trained some or all of the saudis on how to hijack a plane I think he proved he was dangerous. If it was someone else he was training there and not the 9/11 terrorists then, he was still a threat. this is something everyone agreed on until it became less politically expediant.

    I hate to agree with sean hannity so much in only a few weeks, but he's dead on--on this one...this war has been politicized. where he's wrong is he thinks it's only been politicized one way. all this attacking about the war, has not only made things more diffcult for our tropps to carry though, we look weaker to the terrorists when people are so vocal and the president has been poked and prodded about everything for no good reason...that's why we're seeing all this defensive spin out there by bush....I wa shocked to see eh actually allowed an interview on the subject well before teh dem's had decided on a nominee. and now that the campaigns have spun up to full speed i don't think either side is going to give us the straight scoop until well after teh election is over...and if bush wins then we won't see it until his term is up. The left has this fiery hate for him...and i think it's uncalled for. it's just as wrong as the fiery hate for Clinton was uncalled for. I read through these forums and i see a lot more hate mongering than there used to be.

    i admit i don't like kerry, but I have been known to stand for people on both sides of the aisle. Quit trying to make me seem to be extreme when I'm as moderate as they come...liberatarians are neither left nor right...we're in the middle(just a little north of everyone else.
     
  18. TheAmoeba

    TheAmoeba IncGamers Member

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    I thought the video showed one of his quotes saying exactly that. Whether the quote is a fake is important, but saying that Rummy never said it when the video clearly shows he did make some people wonder whether you even watched the clip.

    Mind showing us a link that proves this? I seem to remeber hearing that the WH itself admitted there was no connection (no, I don't have a link for that, I heard it on the radio).

    The Amoeba
     
  19. llad12

    llad12 IncGamers Member

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    Whoa ... are you saying that Saddam trained them?

    You better give some sources for that remark.


    Clarke, in his interview on 60 Minutes, had one of the best answers I have heard for the price we paid to invade Iraq:

    http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/60min_StahlClarke_transcript.html
     
  20. Underseer

    Underseer IncGamers Member

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    You have proof he trained those 19 Saudi kids? Really?

    You should tell the White House immediately. They have been trying and trying and trying to prove any connection between Saddam and the September 11 attacks. Desperately. If you have the proof, you should tell them right away, because they need that information badly. I am impressed that you were able to find what the entire Executive Branch could not. Kudos to you!

    If Martha Stewart had already spent time in jail for the same thing, your analogy might hold water. But then, if Martha had already been to jail once for the same thing, it would be a fair bet that she wouldn't make the same mistake twice.

    No matter how rash Saddam is, I don't think he would be rash to pull the tail of this particular tiger twice.

    If you really believe that, then answer this: why did we spend hundreds of billions of dollars invading someone who turned out to not have any WMD of any kind, while we do nothing to Pakistan, which has admitted to giving away nuclear tech like party favors?

    Either your argument is bunk, or the administration is screwing up so bad they need to be removed form office immediately. Which is it?

    So far all we have for proof for that is your say-so. Based on the arguments you've presented so far, I'm not going to lend much weight to that. Either you're lying, or you're really gullible. I'm going to assume the latter.

    Very good. We have something we can agree on. So why are we spending most of our money (hundreds of billions compared to hundreds of millions) and most of our manpower (hundreds of thousands compared to a few thousand) on invading a nation that prior to our invasion had very little ties with Islamic fundamentalism, much less terrorism? Why aren't we spending the majority of our resources on those areas where Islamic fundamentalists and terrorist cells are the most active?

    You're a one-trick pony. All your arguments hinge on this mythical link between al Qa'eda and Iraq, and you know what? Except in Bush's lies, that link does not exist.

    As for the intelligence nonsense, you don't really think this is the fault of intelligence do you? Eh, if you're gullible enough to believe the Iraq-al Qa'eda thing, I suppose you're gullible enough to believe this.

    Let me explain something to you: Iraq's mythical WMD did not matter to the Bush administration. They made the decision to invade Iraq long before September 11 happened. To them, Iraq's mythical WMD, Iraq's mythical terrorist ties, and September 11 itself was just an excuse for them. An excuse for something they planned on doing anyway.
     

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