Riddle me this ! (loot 2.0, core stats, vanilla items)

[Disciple of Erebos]

Thanks a lot for all the detailed information! I'm interested specifically in the usefulness of CDR in regards to high-CD skills like Archon, Vengeance and the like. I have absolutely no interest in trying to play Archon build again, but I would be interested to see how high-CD skills work when you have a lot of CDR. For example, if you could theoretically get up to 80-90% CDR, could you get multiple sets of Ancients from Call of the Ancients, or could you drop multiple shamans with Big Bad Voodoo? And, even if that amount of CDR is excessively high and unattainable (which I now strongly suspect is the case), how much more usable are support-y high-CD skills like these than they are now? Currently, Call of the Ancients and Big Bad Voodoo are basically useless and nobody plays with them, but if you could stack CDR and get it so that you could almost always have them up, they would probably be a lot more meaningful to have.

In terms of RCR, I am once again thinking about using it to make previously-useless skills more worthwhile. For example, very few DH builds play with Cluster Arrow, even though it seems to do damage comparable with Meteor, which is pretty popular among wizards. Having a high RCR could help with this and make skills like Cluster Arrow more useful. Also, a minor thought that just came to me: do you know if RCR applies to Discipline costs as well as Hatred costs? I'd assume the usefulness would be much lower, as Discipline costs tend to be smaller, but even with the 41.8% RCR you've got, that makes a lot of Discipline spenders a lot more efficient, especially since aside from the ancient Legacy Natalya's set, there's no way to improve Discipline regeneration rate.

In any case, thanks so much for testing this stuff and gathering all the information! I really appreciate it; I've already got my creative juices flowing!

 

[HardRock]

Can you give the exact breakdown of this 37 from items?

Sure.

Weapon - 8%
Helm - 8% (from a Star Diamond)
Gloves - 6%
Shoulders - 5%
Rings - 2x5%

I could get an additional 3.8% from Paragon points, but at the moment this doesn't show up on my detailed stat page. As far as I know it may not even benefit me at all, so I didn't include it in my previous post when I listed my stats.

I'm interested specifically in the usefulness of CDR in regards to high-CD skills like Archon, Vengeance and the like. I have absolutely no interest in trying to play Archon build again, but I would be interested to see how high-CD skills work when you have a lot of CDR. For example, if you could theoretically get up to 80-90% CDR, could you get multiple sets of Ancients from Call of the Ancients, or could you drop multiple shamans with Big Bad Voodoo?

I think so. I'll try to test this with BBV, as it may be possible to do even with my gear if I also use both Tribal Rites and Grave Injustice.

And, even if that amount of CDR is excessively high and unattainable (which I now strongly suspect is the case), how much more usable are support-y high-CD skills like these than they are now? Currently, Call of the Ancients and Big Bad Voodoo are basically useless and nobody plays with them, but if you could stack CDR and get it so that you could almost always have them up, they would probably be a lot more meaningful to have.

I think these skills will require specific Legendaries if you want to fully utilize them. For example, the final set bonus of the Immortal King's set makes your Ancients last until they die. There's also two items that make the Fetish Army skill extremely powerful. One makes your Fetishes last until they die, the other reduces the CD of Fetish Army by 1 second every time your Fetishes hit something. It's worth mentioning at this point that the basic Fetishes deal 130% weapon damage now, instead of the old 20%. Go go summoner WD.

That said, I don't think BBV is useless at all. I've used it in the past many times. It helps a ton against Elites when your gear is otherwise fairly weak on a specific difficulty. This is even more true now, because the divide between normal and Elite monsters is even greater than before. If I had the to choose between staying on Torment 1 with BBV or going back to Master without it I would most likely choose the former, since Torment brings new and increased Legendary drops.

In terms of RCR, I am once again thinking about using it to make previously-useless skills more worthwhile. For example, very few DH builds play with Cluster Arrow, even though it seems to do damage comparable with Meteor, which is pretty popular among wizards. Having a high RCR could help with this and make skills like Cluster Arrow more useful.

Definitely. Any ability that you can only cast 3-4 times before running out of resource will greatly benefit from RCR, max resource and resource regen stats.

While we're on the topic of maximum resource boosts, this is an area where Paragon points provide a fairly noticeable bonus. Here's how much they allow you to extend your resource pool:

Witch Doctor: +200 Mana (base Mana is 750 at all levels)
Barb: +50 Fury
Monk: +50 Spirit
Demon Hunter: +25 Hatred (there's no bonus to Discipline)
Wizard: +25 Arcane Power

Each requires 50 Paragon points to be spent in the Core category, which you'll be able to do at level 200.

do you know if RCR applies to Discipline costs as well as Hatred costs? I'd assume the usefulness would be much lower, as Discipline costs tend to be smaller, but even with the 41.8% RCR you've got, that makes a lot of Discipline spenders a lot more efficient, especially since aside from the ancient Legacy Natalya's set, there's no way to improve Discipline regeneration rate.

I don't know why the hell I didn't look at this before. Anyway, I'm happy to report that RCR works for Discipline costs as well. It's listed on the detailed stat page and reduces all resources costs by the same amount.

In any case, thanks so much for testing this stuff and gathering all the information! I really appreciate it; I've already got my creative juices flowing!

You are more than welcome. I enjoy testing things like this so feel free to continue posting questions if you have them.

 

[Disciple of Erebos]

Thanks for all the great information. I've never been to interested in DH before, but I might try to build a RCR-build to capitalize on Discipline. Alternatively, I might try to go for CDR to drop the cooldown on Premeditation. Again, thanks for the great information; you've made my day!

Also, about the possible fetish build, the passive that gives you a 1% chance to get a fetish when you cast a physical realm skill might be useful if your fetishes reduce CD of Fetish Army on hit. I did some playtesting on WD with it, and with about 2.00 AS I could usually get 3 or 4 fetishes out of about 10 seconds worth of spamming. Take note, the passive only cares about casting the spell; you don't actually have to hit anything with the spell in order to get the fetish. Currently, this is not too useful, as 4 fetishes still aren't that useful. However, if each one of them is doing decent damage, and is reducing the CD of Fetish Army, then it might be very lucrative indeed to just swarm the field with fetishes, dogs and the gargantuan, then stay back and cast physical skills until Fetish Army's CD resets. Anyway, thanks again for the detailed information!

 

[HardRock]

You can have multiple BBV up at the same time. Proof:

With 31.42% effective CDR, Tribal Rites, Grave Injustice and the Jungle Drums rune of BBV (+10 seconds duration) it has a downtime of only about 30 seconds (if you don't move around) and much less if you kill things.

Sadly, it seems that summoned fetishes die when you resummon them with Fetish Army. It's a shame, the skill will never live up to its name like this. Now that I think about it, the Legendary that makes fetishes last until they die may only effect the ones summoned by Fetish Army and not the ones you got from the Fetish Sycophants passive. If that turns out to be true I'll be a sad panda.

The Spirit Walk + Soul Harvest combo is tons of fun with a build like this though. You can recharge 30% of your Mana pool very often with the Honored Guest rune and you're practically immune to crowd control. The Vengeful Spirit rune of Soul Harvest does 780% weapon damage and when you use it with gear like mine plus Grave Injustice its CD is almost non-existent.

Also, about the possible fetish build, the passive that gives you a 1% chance to get a fetish when you cast a physical realm skill might be useful if your fetishes reduce CD of Fetish Army on hit. I did some playtesting on WD with it, and with about 2.00 AS I could usually get 3 or 4 fetishes out of about 10 seconds worth of spamming. Take note, the passive only cares about casting the spell; you don't actually have to hit anything with the spell in order to get the fetish. Currently, this is not too useful, as 4 fetishes still aren't that useful. However, if each one of them is doing decent damage, and is reducing the CD of Fetish Army, then it might be very lucrative indeed to just swarm the field with fetishes, dogs and the gargantuan, then stay back and cast physical skills until Fetish Army's CD resets.

Indeed. A build like this would play very similarly to the Fishymancer from D2. Stand back, support your pets and enjoy the carnage.

I do think however that the Fetish Sycophants passive is one of the most undervalued ones in the game. In HC I use it all the time even on live, because the Fetishes provide additional obstacles for enemies and projectiles, boosting my EHP much more than items ever could. It does require a fair amount of attack speed to be effective, that's for sure.

 

[Steven Hazani]

Sure.

Weapon - 8%
Helm - 8% (from a Star Diamond)
Gloves - 6%
Shoulders - 5%
Rings - 2x5%

I could get an additional 3.8% from Paragon points, but at the moment this doesn't show up on my detailed stat page. As far as I know it may not even benefit me at all, so I didn't include it in my previous post when I listed my stats.

As I suspected. The reason is this:

1: D3 uses a lot of hidden rounding (for example, put a ruby in your helm, you won't get a whole number).
2: Each item is a separate source and then it is counted up like dodge is. .8 * .92 * .92 * .94 * .95 * .95 * .95 = 45.42%, but see 1.

 

[HardRock]

Thanks, that makes perfect sense and based on my numbers CDR is indeed calculated like this. It's not very intuitive though.

 

[Steven Hazani]

Thanks, that makes perfect sense and based on my numbers CDR is indeed calculated like this. It's not very intuitive though.

It's the same as dodge. And if they didn't do that it'd get rather broken, for example 80% = perma invincible Monks. So they deserve a little more credit than I thought.