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RFD - Is it time to remove the vanilla/FAM split?

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by Thyiad, Nov 4, 2015.

  1. Thyiad

    Thyiad Moderator Single Player, D2 Assassin, Barbarian

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    Bonus point to those who know what RFD is and it's origin.

    This is the (tri?)-annual query about FAM mods and how we all feel about them. Nothing is changing right now, so vanilla and FAM stay as they are. So no one panic, please.

    There isn't a poll because I personally don't think that it's as simple as Option 1 v Option 2. I want to know from everyone - particularly those who are still vanilla - how they would feel about a merge.

    A few points to consider:
    - the MUCH smaller trade base that we have right now compared to many years ago
    - the changed Blizzard have made to the game regards respecs and coloured runes
    - the liklihood of Blizzard ever updating anything in D2 again

    Before anyone tries to drag this off-topic certain things are not up for discussion. Certain stash-enhancing mods aren't going to be allowed here; we have other ways of doing everything it does and without the bits we don't accept. So please don't start bringing that or similar non-accepted mods into the equation. This is for vanilla/FAM (RRM/CRM/RWM) only.

    I'm more interested in reasoning than I am "yeah merge it" or "Nooooooooooooo keep it separate". :p

    *grabs popcorn*
     
  2. logoutzero

    logoutzero IncGamers Member

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    Thy;
    What does merging accomplish? Is this simply to expand the dwindling MP/T pool(s)?

    Edit:
    My thought is to keep them separated. The reason being that they are different games in some aspects. We don't allow SC > HC transfers for this reason. Bridging the gap between Vanilla and FAM status I think would be akin to the former. If it's really about expanding the MPT, then I say nay, if I wanted to play with a Vanilla member, I would create a new Vanilla stash and play Vanilla with them. Or ask them to come to FAM.

    Edit 2:
    Maybe I feel this way because I already play HC, which is a limited pool to begin with, so I'm already accustomed to it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2015
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  3. GooberGrape

    GooberGrape IncGamers Member

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    I personally feel that the "many shades of gray" approach to FAM is tedious and divisive, and that a player should either be considered SC or HC, and vanilla or FAM. Four total categories. Then a sticky can quickly and concisely delineate these four categories based on type. This also takes care of the "can I use X mod or Y program", we can direct the player to the sticky instead of combing through fifteen years of archived posts in the vain hope that a mod addressed the issue some dozen years ago. I feel this simple change would benefit the trade and MP environment, and simultaneously consolidate the player base while allowing for freedom of personal expression.

    Of note is the fifth category, "I do what I want on my machine". This includes mods, duping, and open bnet. This will stay as is: perfectly ok just don't trade or MP. No change needed here.
     
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  4. Friiser

    Friiser IncGamers Member

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    No bonus points for me...can't remember (or I never knew) what RFD stands for as it relates to D2 and trading.

    Here are my personal opinions and thoughts:

    1) The HC / SC split in my mind is not needed. Deeds should be recorded, but the equipment (evidence of the effort) should live on. I don't play HC because I like my loot, but whether the person I want to trade with is HC or not, its about the equipment, not whether he/she has only one life to live.

    2) Vanilla vs FAM - the only factor in my opinion is the Runeword Mod - however I see as more like a version switcher, i.e. v1.14 = 1.13d + RWM (1.13d is the current version as of this post).

    I've only done a handful of trades in my D2 life, so my opinions should be taken lightly :)
     
  5. logoutzero

    logoutzero IncGamers Member

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    This is not how most of us look at it, at least from the HC side. Here's an example: You play a glass cannon Sorc with 236 HP and all -80 resistances and do L85 runs on /p7 with 1647 MF. You die 15 times between boss packs. You drop a Tyreal's and take it to market. I play a fishy with 3500 HP, 85 to all res, and 164 MF. It takes me 76000 runs to drop a Tyreal's, and I stash it to never lose it. Although they are the same item they are not valued the same. The fact that a character has only one life to live makes the gameplay different, which makes the games different. You wouldn't trade items with someone who farms Eastern Sun would you?
     
  6. GooberGrape

    GooberGrape IncGamers Member

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    Currently we can pass items from HC to SC, but not in reverse. In my opinion, this rule works as intended.
     
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  7. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    Sorry for the noob question, but FAM = forum approved mods, right?
     
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  8. fearedbliss

    fearedbliss IncGamers Member

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    Not sure what RFD means or where it started buy maybe "Request for Discussion" considering you are asking for community feedback ;D.
    --

    I'm for merging everything.

    The logic I have is that activating already included features in the game that you paid for (and that is the normal content in an online experience) means that we should be getting the identical amount of content from the greatest superset (Long sentence ... I know).

    Basically what I mean is that the content available in single player should ideally be what is available in the game (Which at the moment is everything that is on the battle.net version of d2).

    So that's for the ladder runeword activation stuff.

    In terms of coloring runewords, 1.13 includes these color changes and I never saw these as a "breaking" deal for me in terms of trading with someone. The most important question I ask myself if I were to trade with someone is.. Did they play the game legit, and did they only use the D2 RNG to find these items. What I mean by playing legit is not using hacks or any character editors. So changing colors of runes or activating runewords that are actually already included in the game but are disabled simply to encourage people to play online is not a concern.

    So.. what are we waiting for? Merge everything! One World, One Sanctuary.

    @krischan yup

    EDIT:

    Also I believe that basically the only divisions we should be having the the divisions already in the game (Game modes),

    Softcore vs Hardcore. It's just logical that these two player bases are divided. However, with that said, I will say that I'm not exactly against doing a Path of Exile type of thing where Hardcore players characters "Dropdown" to Softcore after their death. This could increase LAN games in Softcore games, more items in the trading pool, and potentially more people playing with Hardcore players. However the counter argument to this is that our communities lower level Hardcore interactions could become like Path of Exile's where people that just want to "Try out" Hardcore can start playing Hardcore and end up being careless and actually getting the people who actually want to play Hardcore in danger. So there are definitely consequences to this, primarily in terms of the mentality of the player base.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2015
  9. NoisemakerArrow

    NoisemakerArrow IncGamers Member

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    Apart from keeping the current divisions, people should be forbidden to farm crap in the past to bring to the new versions. Allowing them to bring HC gear to SC is also stupid. They're two different things. If you want SC gear, play SC.

    "Bonus point to those who know what RFD is and it's origin."

    Its.

    "You drop a Tyreal's"

    Tyrael.
     
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  10. GooberGrape

    GooberGrape IncGamers Member

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    Time traveling is/was supported by Blizzard and is part of the Vanilla experience. Anyone who owns the game CD's can time travel without any third party applications at all. Admittedly the Bliss version switcher makes it FAR easier to play multiple versions, and I would be fine with categorizing all time travelers as FAM even if they do it legitimately.
     
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  11. fearedbliss

    fearedbliss IncGamers Member

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    I would agree that Time Traveling is part of the vanilla experience since Time Travelling happened naturally (and automatically on bnet) during patch upgrades. I wouldn't consider Time Travelers FAM though because it's exactly that.. You played an older version and you updated to a newer version. All of that is within the vanilla realm. That's like telling Blizzard that every time they release a new version, they should delete all characters on battle.net (Non-Ladder chars).

    There is no ladder vs non-ladder on Single Player so separating Time Travellers from Non-Time Travelers is basically forcing a "Ladder" reset type of system since it's essentially saying "If you played 1.09 and then want to play with your 1.10 friends, you need to start all over again on 1.10".
     
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  12. GooberGrape

    GooberGrape IncGamers Member

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    I would like to clarify my "many shades of grey" post. Below is my actual trade profile as of 05 Nov 2015:

    Forum Name: Goobergrape
    Date: 22 August 2015

    Versions Played:
    - Classic: 1.00, 1.06b, 1.09b
    - Expansion: 1.07, 1.09b, 1.10s, 1.13d

    Mod Status: Red Rune Mod (RRM), Runeword Mod (RWM)

    HC/SC Status: SC (HC only for tourneys)

    Other Information:
    - GoMule and ATMA for muling
    - Bliss version switcher for time travel
    - Modified d2gfx.dll for multi instance
    - Moved items and characters forward from older patches
    - Created ebugged and ATMA bugged items
    - Moved items HC to SC
    - Hotmuled Gheed's
    - HF rushed characters

    Probation Period Status: Full trade status

    Last updated 05 Nov 2015

    In the current trade pool, there are millions of combinations of Forum Approved Mods. One player might use ATMA but be opposed to ATMA ebugging. Another player might hotmule Gheed's but be opposed to Hellforge rushing. This fractures an otherwise cohesive community into tiny shards when it comes to trading and MP.

    By agreeing on a single definition of FAM, we remove both the tedium of Curriculum Vitae trade profiles, as well as the stigma and risk of "tainting" the efforts of an already small population because a particular player prefers his runes to be red or purple instead of orange.

    With this simplification, the trade profile need only focus on the characters that actively trade or MP. This removes the burden of tracking which version a particular item came from. It also narrows the scope of the player's interactions with the forum members. If you never trade or MP with HC characters, do you need to list HC in your trade profile? This may be outside the scope of this thread, if so I apologize.

    With the proposed changes, here is what my trade profile might look like in the future. It's just an idea.

    Forum Name: GooberGrape
    Date: 22 August 2015

    Versions:
    - Expansion: 1.07, 1.13d

    Mod status: FAM

    HC/SC status: SC
     
  13. maareek

    maareek IncGamers Member

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    None of the things you mention have anything to do with Forum Approved Modifications status. At all. Any more than whether you use ATMA or GoMule or both does. All FAM indicates is that you do use a non-zero amount of the gameplay changing modifications approved by the forum. All Vanilla means is that you use none of them. Hotmuling does not enter into that, neither does which muling program you use, neither does HC to SC transfers nor moving items from 1.07 to 1.13. None of it enters in the formula at all. If you use the RWM, you are FAM. If you use the RWM and play 1.07 and 1.09 and e-bug Griefs and run multiple instances and HF rush characters and hotmule Gheed's and sometimes play HC with your underwear on your head, then you're still exactly the same pool as the former person, because FAM status is FAM status, period.

    Listing your gameplay practices gives those who object to some number of them the ability to not trade with you or not trade those particular items with you, at their discretion. It does not fracture or in any way impinge on the definition or function of FAM. It merely allows people information to use to make decisions. It's true that basically nobody who trades now objects to hellforge rushing (mainly because it's only done for beta items) or hotmuling Gheeds, but the point of the "other information" section was always to inform other players about how you specifically play the game so they could get an understanding of you from your profile (you know, in the style of a profile) and I see no reason to move away from that.

    Lastly, if tracking where items were found is too much of a burden, then the bath water is lye and there's no need to keeping the baby around anymore. You cannot have a trading system focused on maintaining integrity of the traders and items in the pool without keeping track of everything, and if we've reached a point where that's untenable we may as well shut down the trade forum entirely.

    On the subject of the original post: I see no reason whatsoever to merge. It's a complete slap in the face to anyone playing Vanilla, to begin with, to invalidate their right to play how they want and a turning-the-back on the heretofore intention of letting people do what they wanted as long as they stayed within the rules. If someone is Vanilla now it's certainly not because they aren't intelligent enough to know they could trade with FAM players, it's because they choose to not use the mods and why would we deny them the right to make that choice while still having an outlet to enjoy the trading aspect of the forum experience? I don't care if two Vanilla trades happen every decade, what's the cost of allowing those two that would give cause to snuff them out?

    The trade pool is small, no doubt about that, but I cannot follow a logical line that ends with the trade pool growing because of the merging of FAM and Vanilla. It just sounds like knocking down apartments to try and lower rent prices, to me.
     
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  14. ERayz

    ERayz IncGamers Member

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    nvm just saw the other thread
     
  15. NoisemakerArrow

    NoisemakerArrow IncGamers Member

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    I noticed that the people defending the farming of items from old versions carefully avoided the farming part of what I said and focused on the fact that characters naturally change versions. Yeah, you change versions ONCE. When a new patch comes out, you slap it on your game and you play it from then on. You accept the changes of that patch as they are. What so many people do is try to get the best of every patch. That's an exploit, pure and simple. Why were those items removed? Because they were seen as "not good" for the game as a whole. Many were overpowered. If you want those items, play the version in which they spawn. You can play another version too, if you want. But transferring items from version to version so you can have the best of both is complete and utter crap. You're done with an older version and you want to change to a new one? Ok, change. ONCE. Some years go by and you feel like playing the older version again? Go ahead. But this time you don't have an excuse to bring everything to a newer version since you already have characters in it.

    When did Blizzard ever support time-travelling? Not deleting your current items when a new patch comes out doesn't classify as supporting time-travelling. It classifies as Blizzard not wanting to piss off all its customers. When did any Blizzard employee ever say "We support people having multiple installations of the game so they can scum the hell out of every version and get the most powerful items of each into the current version."? That's what time-travelling is. And it's an exploit. And I won't play or trade with anyone who does it. I want to know who those cheaters are so I can avoid them.

    "It just sounds like knocking down apartments to try and lower rent prices, to me."

    Won't that just cause them to go up due to lower supply?
     
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  16. maxicek

    maxicek Moderator Single Player

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    Bearing in mind Nightfish was already levelling through normal with a 1.07 Ravenclaw when I joined the forum 10 years ago, you can whine all you like, it is part of SP.

    If you don't like it, do a full restart and don't trade or MP with anyone. The whole forum is tainted with time travel.
     
  17. Friiser

    Friiser IncGamers Member

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    HC changes a player's strategy based on risk, not the way an item is generated from a monster being defeated. I understand you value your time it took to get an item, but that is play dependent, not game code dependent.

    I wouldn't, but I don't see that as an apples-to-apples comparison. There are different monsters, quests, etc in the Eastern Sun that aren't in the regular game (I'm assuming that, as I've not played Eastern Sun).
     
  18. maxicek

    maxicek Moderator Single Player

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    Back on topic: What maareek said. Keep them separate, if someone who is vanilla wants to trade with FAM they can just change status. Doesn't mean they actually have to install ladder runewords.

    And off again: ATMA bugging is possible in Vanilla. I think ATMA bugging should be classed as FAM.
     
  19. GooberGrape

    GooberGrape IncGamers Member

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    For a long time, Blizzard hosted all the older versions on ftp.blizzard.com. Seems to me they wanted people playing multiple versions. Of course Blizzard did NOT introduce ATMA or GoMule, but I digress.
     
  20. TheNix

    TheNix IncGamers Member

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    After spending a great deal of time playing the pre1.10 patches over the recent months I have come to realise just how game-breaking the ladder only runewords are. D2 with ladder only RWs is a different beast to D2 without them; not as different as HC is to SC, but very significantly different none-the-less. As such, I believe there should be a demarcation between the two playing modes in the trading pool. RRM/CRM are simply window-dressing in my opinion. They have such a marginal a effect on game play that they can, again in my opinion, be regarded as vanilla.
     
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