Respect?

[Drakk]

Respect?

The lengths Blizzard has gone to to ensure they produce a Diablo 3 that is fun to play while staying true to the franchise have included many reworks of the game. The fact that Blizzard completely scrapped the game and started from scratch in 2003 because it just "wasn't fun" enough, I think we, as fans, can show a little more gratitude towards our favorite game developers.

As I am sure everyone here is aware, shortly after the announcement of Diablo 3 there was a petition to change the art style. This was the first of many gripes Diablo "fans" have had. Rob Pardo, Executive Vice President of Blizzard and executive producer of Diablo 3, has stated that "We've probably gone through atleast three different pretty major art direction shifts" in order to achieve the "gothic, dark feel" while adding color into the game. This dedication to the game and its fans deserves more respect from us, the fans, than it has received.

Now, every time Blizzard tries to release a tidbit of information about the game to reassure or inform the fanbase it is met by intense scrutiny. Then they decide to avoid a whole gripe about an insubstantial part of the game and theres multiple threads complaining of a lack of info released.

Blizzard still, somehow, has the patience to deal with the fanbase and actually takes some of our opinions into concideration because it could make the game better (ie. the length corpses are displayed for). They decide to release a new patch for D2 (for FREE) and actually ask the fans what we want most in the patch (first time I've heard any company doing that) and all I see now are posts on Battle.net complaining that the patch isn't out yet.

After all that this company has done for its fans, I think we could show Blizzard a little more respect.


Edit by Leord:
Art controversy

 

[Demetrium]

Re: Respect?

Pretty good post. I think I see what you're getting at.

I think the main problem here is that a lot of the people that drive guys like Bashiok up a wall post criticism without it being constructive, or even legitimate. Sure, I ***** and moan all the time about things like achievements, but I actually try to put some thought behind my argument and get my point across. As long as people list good reasons for scrutinizing something, and perhaps list alternatives, I honestly don't think they will mind too much. In the end, all the hard work and adjustments should result in a gem of a game that will bear it's fruits in terms of copies sold.

On the flip side, they absolutely have to stand firm when they have something good and people try to convince them to change it.

Blizzard is a great company, but I'll be honest with you, after playing WoW (oh my god I brought it up like 3x today), I am somewhat concerned at how they sometimes seem to bend to their players' demands. There were a lot of cases in WoW where the community with the loudest voice got the most attention, and poor decisions were made just because enough people complained. End result? When I left the game it honestly felt like they had created a monster and had no control over their own game. Every patch was a slew of class changes which would then cause prompt for even more changes in the next patch. Its like you're working on a knot and every time you pull a cable you just make the thing twice as bad as it was. Granted WoW has a lot more complexities to it than a game like D3, it still shows they have the potential to conform just to please.

 

[Edeas_Knight]

Re: Respect?

I feel the same way. Blizz doesn't have to give us a new patch for DII or even have to host bnet for free. Not many developers will even patch a game 4-5 years after its release date, but Blizz still does this even though DII is a 10 year old game. Be grateful that we are getting a new patch, even though it might take a bit longer than expected, I am sure it will be great.

 

[Drakk]

Re: Respect?

I'm glad to see that you guys see the point of my post.. I posted the same thing on bnet and was immediately flamed for it lol no surprise there. Honestly, Blizzard is the most generous and gratious company I have ever seen and I really do respect them for it. They have some of the most needy and complaining fans but they still manage to treat them to info (when it is only helping their competitors to do so) and do what is best for them.

 

[sbn]

Re: Respect?

I feel the same way. Blizz doesn't have to give us a new patch for DII or even have to host bnet for free. Not many developers will even patch a game 4-5 years after its release date, but Blizz still does this even though DII is a 10 year old game. Be grateful that we are getting a new patch, even though it might take a bit longer than expected, I am sure it will be great.

Sorry to sound so rude, but don't you think it is a little naive to say Blizzard's actions are done out of the kindness of their hearts? They patch D2, simply because A. the game still has sales, and B. because what better time to draw attention to the Diablo franchise. Does anyone really think they would do this patch with no D3 on the horizon?

Let us not forget how they completely dropped the ball on announcing the patch could come as by the end of April, and here we are some 7 weeks later and not a single post to even acknowledge the obvious (well aside from that troll Bashioks snarky reply).

This being the same company that does not even seem to have a clue on how to host a forum, much less moderate it. I must say you do see less bile *#&@ posted these days, nevertheless their very own forum is that most useless usage of hard drive space (well not useless if one enjoys flame wars).

And think about the level of communication they give, which is about zero. It is not uncommon these days to see developers interact with their community either via forums or blog.

I also can not say that it is disrespectful to Blizzard when their users voices their opinions.

 

[Cevilo]

Re: Respect?

Sorry to sound so rude, but don't you think it is a little naive to say Blizzard's actions are done out of the kindness of their hearts? They patch D2, simply because A. the game still has sales, and B. because what better time to draw attention to the Diablo franchise. Does anyone really think they would do this patch with no D3 on the horizon?

well what ever the reason is they are putting the patch out :] idk if d3 has an effect on their decision, but we saw 1.10-1.12 before we knew D3 was even in the making. so it's not to far fetched.

Let us not forget how they completely dropped the ball on announcing the patch could come as by the end of April, and here we are some 7 weeks later and not a single post to even acknowledge the obvious (well aside from that troll Bashioks snarky reply).

I think you misread what Bashiok said so I'll put it out in bold

We don’t have a final release date for the patch yet, but we’re providing early warning as a reset could occur as early as the end of April.

I think he was trying to say there was a possibility the patch would be out by the end of April that (obviously) is not the case.

This being the same company that does not even seem to have a clue on how to host a forum, much less moderate it. I must say you do see less bile *#&@ posted these days, nevertheless their very own forum is that most useless usage of hard drive space (well not useless if one enjoys flame wars).

Their forum is where this website and every other gets their information for every one to talk about. and I've fully read 2 Threads that were 10+ pages long today and the Flaming on that over the stupidest crap.. its pretty much every where

And think about the level of communication they give, which is about zero. It is not uncommon these days to see developers interact with their community either via forums or blog.

because they are busy developing the game it's kind of discouraging when people are being jerks about what ever they release, saying they don't know how to do their job like they know any better or some thing.. Bashiok is keeps the communication between Blizzard and the people but why is he going to deliver the garbage of people saying crap about a game they never played before. It's pretty much a bunch of cry baby bull crap the looks won't matter to much it'll be what they do with the new game play that will make the game. the fact that there is a random rainbow in the back round wont mean crap.

I also can not say that it is disrespectful to Blizzard when their users voices their opinions.

strait from Bash to people who want to share their voices

In closing, I'm more than willing to provide reasoning and discuss observations, just don't be a jerk about it.

 

[5zigen]

Re: Respect?

Well, in all fairness blizzard can really expect this intense scrutiny with the pace of information release.

Let's say, for example, they were to release all at once the last 2 classes, all the skills, the drop system, the rune system, and the gear equipment and character customizations. Under this scenario, people would probably not subject everything to such intense scrutiny because everyone in the community would be looking at something else, Some people would be looking at specific classes, some would be looking at skills, some would look at mechanics etc. Sure some issues would be scrutinized, but not to the extent that we see stuff like health globes at bosses, polycount of objects, and fallen hairstyles.

The thing is, when you only release 1 tidbit of information every month, every active community member is going to look over it, and with that many eyes it is like you are voluntarily subjecting it to such strict scrutiny. (I know, blizzard couldn't release a ton of information between now and release which is why they are releasing stuff so slowly.)

Aside from that, I am all for giving blizzard the benefit of the doubt, because I'm all for letting the developers make their game (too many cooks spoil the broth) I'm all for giving suggestions but ultimately most of the stuff is their decision.

Aside from that, I think there is room for criticism, particularly on the d2 patch front. When they announced what they announced they killed the season. D2 is SO dead right now, and really it's because of how and when they made the announcement. Plus, they've been silent about it for a long time, and really bashiok has been pretty completely off the D2 forums.

Yeah, they don't need to do anything with D2, but ultimately it's in their best interest and it really preserves their image, particularly when D3 is coming out, people will think back and associate how well they supported it (true or not, but with a recent patch it will be fresh in everyone's mind.)

 

[Drakk]

Re: Respect?

I do agree that Blizz dropped the ball on announcing the patch could be released soon when it was obviously far from being done. It's hard to progress your characters when you know that sooner than later you will need to start over to play ladder. That said, I still admire them for trying to provide us with an enjoyable, hopefully bot-free, Diablo 2 until D3's release.

This being the same company that does not even seem to have a clue on how to host a forum, much less moderate it.

I think the battle.net forums are absolutely rediculous. They are a complete waste of time to try and have an intelligent conversation on (they seem to bring the worst out in people), but sbn how do you moderate such a circus??

Those people are negatively representing the fanbase. I posted this thread there to try and have a discussion about how the forums have been acting and I got flamed worse than meph by a magicfinding meteorb sorc. Sad to say, I got sucked into the mess and ended up more frustrated than when I started. I think ill just wait to get the Bashiok updates from this site from now on :thumbup:

 

[Vitamins]

Re: Respect?

The lengths Blizzard has gone to to ensure they produce a Diablo 3 that is fun to play while staying true to the franchise have included many reworks of the game. The fact that Blizzard completely scrapped the game and started from scratch in 2003 because it just "wasn't fun" enough, I think we, as fans, can show a little more gratitude towards our favorite game developers.

As I am sure everyone here is aware, shortly after the announcement of Diablo 3 there was a petition to change the art style. This was the first of many gripes Diablo "fans" have had. Rob Pardo, Executive Vice President of Blizzard and executive producer of Diablo 3, has stated that "We've probably gone through atleast three different pretty major art direction shifts" in order to achieve the "gothic, dark feel" while adding color into the game. This dedication to the game and its fans deserves more respect from us, the fans, than it has received.

Now, every time Blizzard tries to release a tidbit of information about the game to reassure or inform the fanbase it is met by intense scrutiny. Then they decide to avoid a whole gripe about an insubstantial part of the game and theres multiple threads complaining of a lack of info released.

Blizzard still, somehow, has the patience to deal with the fanbase and actually takes some of our opinions into concideration because it could make the game better (ie. the length corpses are displayed for). They decide to release a new patch for D2 (for FREE) and actually ask the fans what we want most in the patch (first time I've heard any company doing that) and all I see now are posts on Battle.net complaining that the patch isn't out yet.

After all that this company has done for its fans, I think we could show Blizzard a little more respect.


Edit by Leord:
Art controversy

I will show Blizzard gratitude the same way everybody else will when Diablo 3 is released: with money. Blizzard Entertainment is a video game company and we are its consumers, so they would do well to heed our criticism of Diablo 3 and the rest of their products; otherwise, they will quickly go out of business. I respect Blizzard as a company that makes good video games, but that is as far as my respect goes. I will not blindly buy their products, or agree with their decisions simply because I've bought some of their products in the past, or because they've made some good products in the past. I also do not agree that Blizzard is some benevolent company that is out to simply entertain people. After all, if that were the case, then their video games would be free. If anything, Blizzard should be showing those who express their opinions more respect, instead of having their PR agents (Bashiok) meet them with condescension.

 

[Drakk]

Re: Respect?

they would do well to heed our criticism of Diablo 3 and the rest of their products; otherwise, they will quickly go out of business.

I think they have done an extraordinary job of taking the criticism, my point is that its absolutely out of control. I know it happened a while ago but seriously, a petition to change the entire art direction of the game because people actually felt offended by it?? It is this kind of outlandish sense of self entitlement that I am offended by.

I will not blindly buy their products, or agree with their decisions simply because I've bought some of their products in the past, or because they've made some good products in the past.

I won't blindly buy their products either, but I do use their past games as a great indicator of what type of a game they will release. Their attention to detail is astounding; they implement an idea and if it doesn't work it gets scrapped. Simple as that. They know what works and what doesn't because they are the ones building it and testing it.

I also do not agree that Blizzard is some benevolent company that is out to simply entertain people. After all, if that were the case, then their video games would be free.

I don't believe I stated that or even made that inclination. Obviously Blizzard is a company conducting business to make money (thats what business is). If this wasn't so, they wouldn't be a company.. Nobody works for free.

If anything, Blizzard should be showing those who express their opinions with more respect, instead of having their PR agents (Bashiok) meet them with condescension.

More respect? My, oh my, we have differing opinions! I won't quote myself but I think I did a fairly good job at showing multiple examples of how Blizzard has tolerated the continuous landslide of insults and outlandish demands made by its "fans." I don't blame Bashiok in the slightest for having a short fuse with battle.net posters as of late, I actually commend him for it. I definately would not have the composure he has when dealing with the onslaught of attacks from know-it-all wannabe game designers.

 

[Vitamins]

Re: Respect?

Drakk, I have no idea why you responded to my post. You didn't add anything at all. It's as though you responded to it solely for the sake of responding. What say you?

 

[DWS]

Re: Respect?

This kind of smells like a fanboi post and i can see why we have fanboi's - because blizz makes some awesome games.

But really, you're asking us to be gracious for all they have done for us? What exactly have they done out of the goodness of their own hearts that doesn't somehow fall back on their making money as a business? Just name one thing...for example like making a game and giving it all away for free would be a good example but I don't see where that has happened.

When talking about community feedback and negativity - welcome to the internet. Not sure what experiences you have with...well...any other game but dude this is reality.

 

[Airazor]

Re: Respect?

I guess if blizzard says they are trying to make the game fun, and make changes based on that no one else can really criticize them, because after all they're the only ones playing it. Though since a lot of things have changed at blizzard since D2, I'm not going to keep saying the company is awesome and buy all there games just because they "used" to be good.

You can only hope they are doing the right thing with the game, nothing else.

 

[sbn]

Re: Respect?

well what ever the reason is they are putting the patch out :] idk if d3 has an effect on their decision, but we saw 1.10-1.12 before we knew D3 was even in the making. so it's not to far fetched.



I think you misread what Bashiok said so I'll put it out in bold



I think he was trying to say there was a possibility the patch would be out by the end of April that (obviously) is not the case.



Their forum is where this website and every other gets their information for every one to talk about. and I've fully read 2 Threads that were 10+ pages long today and the Flaming on that over the stupidest crap.. its pretty much every where



because they are busy developing the game it's kind of discouraging when people are being jerks about what ever they release, saying they don't know how to do their job like they know any better or some thing.. Bashiok is keeps the communication between Blizzard and the people but why is he going to deliver the garbage of people saying crap about a game they never played before. It's pretty much a bunch of cry baby bull crap the looks won't matter to much it'll be what they do with the new game play that will make the game. the fact that there is a random rainbow in the back round wont mean crap.



strait from Bash to people who want to share their voices

To point to just how bad Battle.net's forums are, we could never have this discussion, this point-counter point we are having now. But then again this forum here has moderators that actually do their job; they moderate. We don't insult, flame, call names, and a lot of that is due to the 'culture' here where the moderators do play a part in creating the respectful discourse. Bnet's forums, I have no clue to why they have so called moderators, seeing that nobody ever moderates. I remember way too often seeing rants that were the most bile and offensive, that would continue on and on without anyone bothering to remove it. There was one regarding a topic I shall not repeat here, but it was certainly one of the most offensive and disgusting in nature I had ever seen on a public forum. Did Blizzard close it? Of course not, it was kept alive for weeks on end. That makes me lose respect, for this is their official forums to which they are responsible for.

But I will say this. Head over to some communities like Infinity Ward's, Tripwire Interactive, Simtek, and AA Special Forces. All these companies are on a level of communication and respect for their communities that in unrivaled by Blizzard. It really is night and day when you compare Blizzard to say Tripwire, where were fully informed of everything we wanted to know straight from the devs themselves. We can ask a question in the forums as to why this or that was not included, and get a honest answer as to why. You know what, treat people with respect and they will respond in kind.

I do understand the statement that the patch could be out as early as April, but to be now 7+ weeks later without at least one comment on the obvious is bad PR, and simply lacks respect. Personally I think someone just shot their mouth off without having a clue to what stage of development the patch is in. Irregardless, it really was a drop off the ball on Blizzard's part, something they have a long history of doing. For me the point is not that the patch has been released or not, but rather how this has played out.

And again I would reiterate that during the life of Diablo2, the game sales have been quite good, enough to keep minimal support. Also keep in mind that players on Bnet provide Blizzard with ad revenue. Bnet is a profitable income source, one of the first profitable online gaming services. So again it is not out of the kindness of their hearts they keep D2 playable on Bnet, and provide minimal support every once and a while. And yes I would argue that without D3, suppose patch 1.13 would probably either not exist or be of any high expectation.

There are also many other aspects of the company that have inflamed us over the years that could be listed, but don't need to be now. Point is ultimately we vote with our wallets. My vote to Blizzard has been that LOD was the LAST game I purchased of Blizzard's, but certainly NOT the last game I have ever purchased. As much as I have hopes for D3, it is by no means guaranteed that I will purchase.

 

[Starving_Poet]

Re: Respect?

Sometimes we criticize Blizzard so much because we respect the work they do and don't want them to make a stupid mistake that could destroy the series.

 

[Funkopotamus]

Re: Respect?

My main question is what does Blizzard's actions have to do with how much gratitude I give to my favorite game developer?

 

[Drakk]

Re: Respect?

Drakk, I have no idea why you responded to my post. You didn't add anything at all. It's as though you responded to it solely for the sake of responding. What say you?

Vitamins, I responded to your post for the same reason you responded to my post. You disagreed with what I said and I disagreed with what you said. I chose to show you where and why I believe your wrong and I feel I did a good job of that. If you have any complaints with what I said I gladly await a rebuttal.

What exactly have they done out of the goodness of their own hearts that doesn't somehow fall back on their making money as a business? Just name one thing...for example like making a game and giving it all away for free would be a good example but I don't see where that has happened.

Patch 1.13. 8 years after LOD's release, after the announcement of D3, and we get another patch. Yes, I do realize we have gotten 12 patches prior to this one all for free, but that was before we knew about Diablo 3. There isn't much point in spending time and money to create a patch for a game that will be obsolete in a year or two; other than to keep D2 players happy.
This in no way provides Blizzard with any additional money.

• 
  Not enough to entice new customers. It may entice former players to come back for one last ladder season, but they already own D2:LOD.

• 
  Same amount of dollars coming in from advertisement space

• 
  Anyone still playing D2 will most likely be buying D3 whether there's a new patch or not. ie. no additional D3 purchases from patch release.

• 
  This patch could be taking so long because they are making sure, once and for all, bots and dupes are gone from the game. This would mean no more incomes generated from cheating and JSP. This could be done to benefit both Blizzard and the community, but I gladly say it is those of us that choose not to cheat that would receive the biggest gift.

So really, Blizzard is shelling out cash for no reason other than to give us, the community, a gift. This is one of the reasons I say thanks! Not start complaining cause its not out yet.:thumbup:

 

[Vitamins]

Re: Respect?

Drakk, your so-called rebuttal was nothing of the sort. For example, I wrote, “[T]hey would do well to heed our criticism of Diablo 3 and the rest of their products; otherwise, they will quickly go out of business.†You replied to that with, “I think they have done an extraordinary job of taking the criticism,†but this reply misconstrued what I actually wrote. In this specific excerpt, I didn’t say Blizzard couldn’t take criticism. I wrote Blizzard should consider our criticism, or they will inevitably go out of business. Your “rebuttal†continues on with, “my point is that its absolutely out of control.†According to you it may be out of control. And you’re going to have to do better than using the art controversy surrounding Diablo 3 as evidence for this claim. Many people were and are still upset over the new art direction for Diablo because they think it doesn’t coincide nicely with the other two Diablo games. As paying customers, they are entitled to voice that opinion. Get over it. Nothing here is out of control save for your imagination and fanboyism.

 

[Ravich]

Re: Respect?

More respect? My, oh my, we have differing opinions! I won't quote myself but I think I did a fairly good job at showing multiple examples of how Blizzard has tolerated the continuous landslide of insults and outlandish demands made by its "fans."

Blizzard is making the money. The fans are paying. Why do you somehow feel that the fans are in debt to Blizzard for the fact that they exist?

I don't blame Bashiok in the slightest for having a short fuse with battle.net posters as of late, I actually commend him for it. I definately would not have the composure he has when dealing with the onslaught of attacks from know-it-all wannabe game designers.

Well, he is being paid for doing what he does. Maybe you should hold him accountable for some degree of professionalism?



Personally, I dont think that Blizzard has operated in any way that makes them deserving of respect from fans. Have you been a part of WoW over the last several years? The shear amount of lying and lack of responsibility for mistakes is nothing short of mind blowing. Blizzard rarely did anything other than release half-true information and then use CMs to absorb all the hate. Basically setting everything up so that people are encouraged to abuse the CMs for bearing the bad news that "sorry guys, Blizzard ****ed up again."


There was this one incident fairly early on in WoW, where there had been a bug with Aspect of the Hawk for quite a while. This bug remained well known, but unfixed for several months UNTIL people realized that the bug could be used as an advantage.

Needless to say, Blizzard immediately fixed the bug within a few days of this discovery. It wasnt part of a patch, and it wasnt announced, people just noticed that the bug was fixed.

But... it also had a bad effect for hunters. Blessing of might no longer added anything to ranged attack power. There was, of course, an uproar, because this came across as an additional bug that entered the picture along with the "fix." Blizzard, hurrying to patch up their mistake, claimed that blessing of might was never intended to raise ranged attack power, and the fact that it did was a result of the Aspect of the Hawk bug.

...until people started pointing out that the description of blessing of might on Blizzards very own website specified that it "increases melee and ranged attack power."

Blizzard did nothing but delete these threads and did not acknowledge them.

Additionally, rogues and warriors started posting screen shots in which blessing of might was shown to have raised their ranged attack power in addition to melee attack power.

Blizzard did nothing but delete these threads and did not acknowledge them.




This is one small example of the way that blizzard treats fans regularly.

Respect? No, no that is not conduct that calls for respect, sorry.

 

[Fox VII]

Re: Respect?

I like all blizzard products prior to Wow (due to it's monthly fees). Anyways, I'm happy to purchase thier non-monthly fee games and am confident that they will produce a great DIII game.

To create the best game possible they should collect feedback on what kind of game people want. I believe that newest DII patch was not only to stir up the fanbase, but also to collect this information for DIII under the radar.

If they came right now and said, "how can we change DII to make DIII better", then people would have expected a lot of there opinions to be implemented and could therefore feel rejected when their often stupid ideas are not used. Since the suggestions have been collected for a DII patch, Blizzard can harvest all of those ideas for DIII while avoiding the negative sale reducing reaction of rejecting a group of people's ideas.

Anyways, I am not happy with thier HR forum moderators style and the slow flow of information regarding the games progress, but when the end result is what matters, who really should care? :crazyeyes: I can't wait to play DIII!!!

EDIT: forgot to mention

The biggest thing that makes me "disrespect" Blizzard is their method of balancing, which often whips out the usefulness of a character that one has probably put a lot of time into leveling up. In all fairness the cookie cutter builds need to be balanced, but the nerf bat seems to hit them a little to hard. Hopefully, with the new respec system that will be introduced in DIII, we will not have to worry about this.