Religious Beliefs

[bladesyz]

Again, you're presuming that the words of a "religious authority" speak for the whole religion (in other words, that because they say X phenomena happens for Y reason, the whole religion must believe that). There are some phenomena that even science can't explain (where we should be able to explain it by modern methods). There are a couple other things I've seen on the HC, but I can't quite remember the names, so I'm having a hard time trying to look for it.

I'm not presuming anything about religious beliefs. I'm simply pointing out the flaws of people using religion to explain natural phenomena.

The most common fallacy with this practice is the one you just made. Just because some phenomenons can't be explained by current scientific understanding, doesn't mean religion would do a better job. As for "miracles"... no offense, but pffftt.... Too many people putting too much stock in coincidences. Like that piece of toast that has the image of Virgin Mary on it.

 

[Star Dust]

The most common fallacy with this practice is the one you just made. Just because some phenomenons can't be explained by current scientific understanding, doesn't mean religion would do a better job.

And, in fact, religion only offers vacuous explanations. "Such and such happened, we don't know how, we assert God did it." God is just a label for our ignorance. One must ask, "How do you know?" To answer that question, the event must be studied in a scientific manner and be replicated in laboratory conditions. Like it or not, this is how you objectively figure out how **** happens. Unfortunately due to a bunch of idiots that take some old stories too seriously, the word 'science' carries a lot of baggage. It's just the rigorous study of what happens in the natural world.

So it's not just science vs. religion or science vs. all for explanations, it's either the event had natural causes or it had supernatural causes. To find out we need to study it, not blindly throw out names.

 

[Dondrei]

Like that piece of toast that has the image of Virgin Mary on it.

Gib toast plz.

 

[{KOW}Spazed]

I've still never understood why people who argue against God can't grasp the concept of Faith. Of course everything can be explained scientifically. If there was something that couldn't be explained then there would be proof of God and Faith couldn't happen.

Call it a cop out, it isn't any more so than saying God doesn't exist because you can explain stuff.

 

[Dondrei]

I've still never understood why people who argue against God can't grasp the concept of Faith. Of course everything can be explained scientifically. If there was something that couldn't be explained then there would be proof of God and Faith couldn't happen.

Call it a cop out, it isn't any more so than saying God doesn't exist because you can explain stuff.

Not that I necessarily agree with the converse to your argument, but I'd like to point out that not all religions - not even all denominations of Christianity, in fact far from it - are fideistic.

 

[raffster]

And, in fact, religion only offers vacuous explanations. "Such and such happened, we don't know how, we assert God did it." God is just a label for our ignorance. One must ask, "How do you know?" To answer that question, the event must be studied in a scientific manner and be replicated in laboratory conditions. Like it or not, this is how you objectively figure out how **** happens. Unfortunately due to a bunch of idiots that take some old stories too seriously, the word 'science' carries a lot of baggage. It's just the rigorous study of what happens in the natural world.

So it's not just science vs. religion or science vs. all for explanations, it's either the event had natural causes or it had supernatural causes. To find out we need to study it, not blindly throw out names.

There are things that simply cannot be studied. Period. If it could be studied that means we could understand how it works or why it is, correct?

God IS not a label of our ignorance bur rather, God REPRESENTS the great things in this world that no amount of intelligence, knowledge and wisdom will be able to muster. Faith, hope and love, for example. Are those chemical reactions or brain impulses that can be measured via scientific instrument? And if they could be measured, where do they originate from? I am not saying here that Faith, Hope and Love comes from God but they do come from somewhere. If they come from the heart, how does it get there?

Lastly, belief in God is, above all, a manifestation of humility.

 

[Star Dust]

I've still never understood why people who argue against God can't grasp the concept of Faith. Of course everything can be explained scientifically. If there was something that couldn't be explained then there would be proof of God and Faith couldn't happen.

Call it a cop out, it isn't any more so than saying God doesn't exist because you can explain stuff.

How is faith in the Christian god any better than faith in Santa Claus?

 

[Star Dust]

If it could be studied that means we could understand how it works or why it is, correct?

Incorrect. We could know what the studies reveal to us. What it doesn't reveal remains unknown, not a canvas upon which paint your favorite magic and superstition. Because if you call it something that isn't revealed, I merely ask, how do you know? And all you've got is an argumentum ad ignorantiam.

God IS not a label of our ignorance bur rather, God REPRESENTS the great things in this world that no amount of intelligence, knowledge and wisdom will be able to muster. Faith, hope and love, for example. Are those chemical reactions or brain impulses that can be measured via scientific instrument?

If we had fine enough, non-invasive scientific instruments, then I'm sure we could.

So what, anyway? We can't explain X, therefore X is caused by God. Wait, how do you purport to explain X with God when you say upfront that X is unexplained?

See what I'm getting at?

And if they could be measured, where do they originate from?

Somewhere in the brain? Who cares?

Lastly, belief in God is, above all, a manifestation of humility.

Ok, that's enough without the all important question: What is God?

 

[Bortaz]

I've still never understood why people who argue against God can't grasp the concept of Faith. Of course everything can be explained scientifically. If there was something that couldn't be explained then there would be proof of God and Faith couldn't happen.

Call it a cop out, it isn't any more so than saying God doesn't exist because you can explain stuff.

Surely, they have faith that God doesn't exist, right? :jig:

 

[Star Dust]

Surely, they have faith that God doesn't exist, right? :jig:

Heh, that's a great point and I forgot about it. If having faith in something is a valid statement of its truth, then I have faith God doesn't exist. And we're back to square one.

 

[raffster]

Somewhere in the brain? Who cares?

Of course it's very important to care. If we don't care then there's no point to any of this. If we don't care where faith, hope and love originates from then there's really no point trying to figure out where the unexplainable comes from. If we cannot care enough to know where things that are real to us such as faith, hope and love are actually real enough to be measured in a scientific sense then all pursuit of belief in God is futile.

Ok, that's enough without the all important question: What is God?

I don't scientifically "know" what or who God is but because of faith I know that there is a God. I also know from faith that God is a supernatural being/person who made himself known through Jesus.

How is faith in the Christian god any better than faith in Santa Claus?

1. Christian perspective -- You cannot have faith in Santa Claus because there is NO Santa Claus. To most Christians, Jesus established his divinity through his life, the testimony of his apostles and disciples and the power of his spirit that has prevailed 2000 years after he left this world. You can only have faith in something or someone that is real whether naturally or supernaturally. You cannot have faith in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy simply because having faith in them defies the very definition of faith. You can believe in them but that belief doesn't necessarily tantamount to faith (at least from this perspective).

Faith is defined in Hebrews 11:1 as "Being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." (NIV)

Do you hope for and are certain of Santa Claus, seriously?

2. Buddhist perspective -- faith comes from the Pali word "saddha" which is translated as "confidence". Faith is based on having confidence on the Triple Gem, the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha. Once again the basis of faith is upon something that is known to be real and true whether naturally or supernaturally.

The most important purpose of faith is that it serves as a guiding beacon in our lives because of the power that comes from the object of its belief. It is very difficult to have faith in Santa Claus because right from the onset you already know that Santa isn't real. But if believing in Santa (or having faith in him) makes you a kinder and more compassionate person then more power to you.

 

[Moosashi]

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/ignorant.html

That is a great site.

 

[Dondrei]

Incorrect. We could know what the studies reveal to us. What it doesn't reveal remains unknown, not a canvas upon which paint your favorite magic and superstition. Because if you call it something that isn't revealed, I merely ask, how do you know? And all you've got is an argumentum ad ignorantiam.

Actually, he's right as long as he restricts his comments to undisprovables and other non-scientific areas. Which I think implicitly he was doing.

 

[Lyrs]

My belief is belief in science.

I have faith in science and the scientific method for exploring and answering questions about humanity, life, and the universe.

 

[Star Dust]

Of course it's very important to care. If we don't care then there's no point to any of this. If we don't care where faith, hope and love originates from then there's really no point trying to figure out where the unexplainable comes from. If we cannot care enough to know where things that are real to us such as faith, hope and love are actually real enough to be measured in a scientific sense then all pursuit of belief in God is futile.

I'm sorry, I meant as far as this discussion is concerned, who cares? They are sensations/feelings, which occur in your brain. Where exactly? Who cares?

I don't scientifically "know" what or who God is but because of faith I know that there is a God. I also know from faith that God is a supernatural being/person who made himself known through Jesus.

Well, because of faith I know that there isn't a god.

Christian perspective -- You cannot have faith in Santa Claus because there is NO Santa Claus.

Really?! I eagerly await your proof of the nonexistence of Santa Claus.

You can only have faith in something or someone that is real whether naturally or supernaturally.

Once again the basis of faith is upon something that is known to be real and true whether naturally or supernaturally.

If you know something is real then there's no need for faith. You don't talk about having faith in Mars or faith in the clothes you are wearing. Faith is needed when there's no rational reason to believe in something.

Do you hope for and are certain of Santa Claus, seriously?

No, but what if I did? Could you discount my faith? Why?

But if believing in Santa (or having faith in him) makes you a kinder and more compassionate person then more power to you.

But having faith in Santa Claus also means I believe he exists. If faith means anything in this respect, how could you say otherwise?

 

[Module88]

Oh, please. Miracles? I thought you were going to say something like the sixty-three properties of water that science does not presently understand.

Put a piece of bread in a fire. Take a guess at what's going to happen.

The most common fallacy with this practice is the one you just made. Just because some phenomenons can't be explained by current scientific understanding, doesn't mean religion would do a better job. As for "miracles"... no offense, but pffftt.... Too many people putting too much stock in coincidences. Like that piece of toast that has the image of Virgin Mary on it.

I certainly hope this is a joke. Since two people brought this up, I'll just explain it- sort of.

If I were to put a piece of bread in a fire, I would say that it's going to burn. Now you might believe otherwise, but I believe, based on my scientific knowledge and own experiences with a toaster, that the bread will burn. You can dispute that all you want. I can pretty much guarantee you that if you throw a piece of bread into a fire, it's going to burn.

Is this a phenomena science can't explain?

Because you seem to be saying that science can't explain why a piece of bread burns when tossed into a fire.

Of course, I highly doubt you even looked at the two links (the first one especially). Am I right?

Of course everything can be explained scientifically.

Care to place a bet on that one?

 

[Dondrei]

LOL, you actually believe that nonsense, don't you? Funny how it's hosted on "spirituality.org".

Gib impartial evidence plz.

 

[Module88]

LOL, you actually believe that nonsense, don't you? Funny how it's hosted on "spirituality.org".

Gib impartial evidence plz.

If you can read French/Italian, feel free to take a look at the original documents.

 

[bladesyz]

I certainly hope this is a joke. Since two people brought this up, I'll just explain it- sort of.

If I were to put a piece of bread in a fire, I would say that it's going to burn. Now you might believe otherwise, but I believe, based on my scientific knowledge and own experiences with a toaster, that the bread will burn. You can dispute that all you want. I can pretty much guarantee you that if you throw a piece of bread into a fire, it's going to burn.

Is this a phenomena science can't explain?

Because you seem to be saying that science can't explain why a piece of bread burns when tossed into a fire.

Of course, I highly doubt you even looked at the two links (the first one especially). Am I right?

Care to place a bet on that one?

That was the most confusing rambling I've ever seen. What are you trying to say?

 

[Module88]

That was the most confusing rambling I've ever seen. What are you trying to say?

? I don't know why it's so complicated for you two.

Piece of bread in fire. What's going to happen to it? Take a wild guess.