Religious Beliefs

Moosashi

Diabloii.Net Member
dondrei said:
True, except "not theist" =/= "atheist", despite what the Latin root means. Atheist has a specific English usage.
If that is so, then "atheist" has a specific misusage in the English language stemming from people's inability to understand that not believing in gods is different from believing there are no gods. If one does not affirm a belief in any god, one does not believe in any god. The proper name for one who affirms a belief in a god or gods is "theist". The proper name for one who makes no such affirmation should be "atheist". It is also the name that best describes that actual behavior of both people who describe themselves as atheists and those who describe themselves as agnostics. This is why the term should be used in such a broad sense. Characterizing oneself as agnostic, but not atheistic is contrary to common sense because that characterization asserts that any random thought is as likely to be true as any other. Perhaps that is the case, but that's not how people actually behave. We should have a word that actually applies to people.

P.S. "x is either in A or in A~" is not always true.
Are you saying there is something that is "not A" and not "not A"? Logically, anything that is not "not A" is "A" because if it weren't, it'd be "not A".
 

Dondrei

Diabloii.Net Member
Moosashi said:
If that is so, then "atheist" has a specific misusage in the English language stemming from people's inability to understand that not believing in gods is different from believing there are no gods. If one does not affirm a belief in any god, one does not believe in any god. The proper name for one who affirms a belief in a god or gods is "theist". The proper name for one who makes no such affirmation should be "atheist". It is also the name that best describes that actual behavior of both people who describe themselves as atheists and those who describe themselves as agnostics. This is why the term should be used in such a broad sense. Characterizing oneself as agnostic, but not atheistic is contrary to common sense because that characterization asserts that any random thought is as likely to be true as any other. Perhaps that is the case, but that's not how people actually behave. We should have a word that actually applies to people.
I agree that it's not the right way to interpret the Latin a- prefix, but that's the way things are.

Moosashi said:
Are you saying there is something that is "not A" and not "not A"? Logically, anything that is not "not A" is "A" because if it weren't, it'd be "not A".
But what's your meta-set?
 

PFS

Diabloii.Net Member
Module88 said:
Does it say anywhere in the Bible that God created "perfect" forms? Created in his image is one thing. Created perfect is quite a stretch from there.
There's a lot of stuff that a lot of people intepret from their various religious books that is not explicitly stated in the text.
 

bladesyz

Diabloii.Net Member
Module88 said:
I'm not quite sure what you mean. I certainly hope you're not trying to take the words of "religious authority" as the words of the entire religion. In the end, they're words of flawed humans. That doesn't, however, mean that religion and science can't be unified.
The origins of life and the universe are Scientific questions. The purpose of life and the universe are philosophical questions.

Traditionally, Religion has been used as both a philosophy and an explanation of natural phenomena. Today, it is obvious that Science is far superior than Religion when it comes to natural phenomena, therefore, why is Religion still trying to do Science's job?
 

llad12

Diabloii.Net Member
Moosashi said:
The statement: "one is either theist or not theist (=atheist)" is a tautological truth. Just like it's absolutely true that it is either raining or it is not raining. Since agnostics don't believe in god(s), they must be atheists as well.
Theists believe that God exists. ( + )
Atheists believe that God does not exist. ( - )
Agnostics make no such claim. ( ?? )

To hell with the Latin roots, there is a clear distinction here.

Since the existence of God(s) can neither be proven or dispoven, the defining article of both theist and atheists must be assumed by faith. As the agnostic makes no such assumptions, his/her position is far more defensible.
 

Module88

Diabloii.Net Member
bladesyz said:
The origins of life and the universe are Scientific questions. The purpose of life and the universe are philosophical questions.

Traditionally, Religion has been used as both a philosophy and an explanation of natural phenomena. Today, it is obvious that Science is far superior than Religion when it comes to natural phenomena, therefore, why is Religion still trying to do Science's job?
Again, you're presuming that the words of a "religious authority" speak for the whole religion (in other words, that because they say X phenomena happens for Y reason, the whole religion must believe that). There are some phenomena that even science can't explain (where we should be able to explain it by modern methods). There are a couple other things I've seen on the HC, but I can't quite remember the names, so I'm having a hard time trying to look for it.
 

Star Dust

Diabloii.Net Member
llad12 said:
Theists believe that God exists. ( + )
Atheists believe that God does not exist. ( - )
Agnostics make no such claim. ( ?? )

To hell with the Latin roots, there is a clear distinction here.

Since the existence of God(s) can neither be proven or dispoven, the defining article of both theist and atheists must be assumed by faith. As the agnostic makes no such assumptions, his/her position is far more defensible.
Incorrect. I went over this in another thread:

Star Dust said:
There is more than one form of atheism. The most common distinction between kinds of atheists is that between weak atheists and strong atheists. However, the only one thing common to all kinds of atheists is a lack of belief in deities. Therefore, that's all you can say atheism is: a lack of belief.

There are two different issues to consider when labelling someone in reference to this topic. These issues are belief and knowledge. They are not the same thing. Belief is usually based off of knowledge, but it doesn't have to be. Contrarily, lack of belief is usually based off of lack of knowledge, but it doesn't have to be.

Taking both belief and knowledge into account, there are four possible positions on this topic. One is belief in a deity without knowledge of the deity's existence. Two is belief in a deity while claiming knowledge of the deity's existence. Three is a lack of belief without knowledge of the deity's nonexistence. Four is a lack of belief while claiming knowledge of the deity's nonexistence. How shall we label them? We already have a term that references knowledge (or a lack thereof): agnosticism. The term, coined by Thomas Henry Huxley, was a response to the "Gnostics" that lived centuries earlier. These Gnostics claimed to have secret knowledge concerning Christianity and God, and hence drew their name from the Greek word for knowledge, gnosis. Mr. Huxley wasn't so arrogant and decided to label himself as possessing no such knowledge of the divine. He used the Greek prefix meaning "without/lacking" (a-) and appended it to the word gnostic. So we have "agnostic" which means "without knowledge," and in this context it means "without knowledge of the divine/deities."

So, going back to our four, the two types who don't claim to know of the existence of nonexistence of gods, one believer and one not, are agnostics in one respect. What word shall we use to denote their belief or lack thereof? Theism and atheism work just fine. They, too, have Greek roots, from the Greek word for god, theos, and again the prefix that means without, a-.

So we have gnostic theism, agnostic theism, agnostic atheism (weak atheism), and gnostic atheism (strong atheism). I hope by now you have noticed that agnosticism and theism or atheism are NOT mutually exclusive. Further, merely one of these labels may not be sufficient for describing someone. For example, I know that deities with contradictory or logically impossible attributes don't exist. I am a strong atheist with respect to those deities. I do not claim knowledge of the nonexistence of other deities. However, I still lack belief in them because I haven't been convinced that they exist. I am a weak atheist with respect to those deities.

The default position is not believing. This is the default position with respect to everything. You and I don't believe in the world some newb fantasy author somewhere is penning. This is simply because we don't know about it. However, lack of knowledge isn't the end of it. We also lack belief because of lacking knowledge. So, again, the default position is lacking belief and lacking knowledge. The default position does not make any claims about anything. A claim would be, for example, that the newb fantasy author's world does exist, or that God exists, or that God does not exist. Such claims carry a burden of proof. Not claiming anything, simply lacking belief, does not carry a burden of proof.

Everyone of you and I do not believe that there is a teapot orbiting Pluto. Why should we? There's simply no reason. Nobody has ever seen such a thing and it's highly unlikely, though not logically impossible, that one would be out there. But, you know, we can't disprove it's existence. Our telescopes are not powerful enough to resolve such a small object at such a great distance. And even if they could, we'd be searching forever trying to cover every cubic inch of possible space this moving target could occupy. There's no evidence against the teapot orbiting Pluto hypothesis, at least until we get better telescopes, and there no evidence for it either. We are teapot orbiting Pluto agnostics. But again, we not only don't know if there's a teapot orbiting Pluto, we don't believe there's a teapot orbiting Pluto, either. We occupy the default position with respect to this issue, and we carry no burden to prove either the existence or nonexistence of the teapot. We simply don't believe in it.

But what if there was a millennia long tradition of believing in a teapot orbiting Pluto? What if there were teapot orbiting Pluto prophets, priests, and clerics? What if almost all royalty of the past and present believed in a teapot orbiting Pluto? Would you believe in a teapot orbiting Pluto? I'd hope not. Tradition, popular opinion, and authority are not reasons. In fact, arguments that appeal to one or another have informal logical fallacies named after them. Let's say there were also otherwise very intelligent men that devised so called "proofs" that there is a teapot orbiting Pluto. Would you believe them? Maybe, because there we could have actual reasons for believing in a teapot orbiting Pluto. It depends on if these "proofs" succeed in their claim. But what if all of them, without exception, have been shown to fail in their proof? Would failed proofs be legitimate reasons for believing in a teapot orbiting Pluto? No. Are there any other reasons to believe in a teapot orbiting Pluto? No. So we are back where we started. Attempts to sway us one way, to the claim that a teapot orbiting Pluto does exist, have failed. We fall back to the middle, lacking knowledge, and also lacking belief.

Now reread the above paragraph and replace "teapot orbiting Pluto" with "god."
 

KillerAim

Diabloii.Net Member
Foget it llad12. Saro established the meanings of those terms in that thread (which he started, by the way) early on. He even mentioned that there was some disagreement about how the terms are defined and that discussion could be handled in another thread.

Star Dust, when he entered the fray, ignored all of that and started to argue semantics. He even went on to say that the dictionary definitions were wrong and that his definitions were the "correct" ones.

If you want to tangle with that level of hubris, do so with fair warning.
 

Sergeant

Diabloii.Net Member
KillerAim said:
Sergeant:

Have you been gone for quite awhile, or have we just passed each other in these threads?
The first. I was gone for about a year or something close to it. I'm back because this place is the bloody Hotel California, or a massive blackhole with the hotel california at the core.

Either way, its hard to stay away from such a cool place for too long.
 

Dondrei

Diabloii.Net Member
Star Dust said:
??????????
The set that contains both A and A~. For example, is the colour pink an atheist or a theist? It's neither.

Sergeant said:
I just love it when religious themed threads devolve into discussions of math, physics and logic. :rolleyes:
I consider that evolving...

Module88 said:
Again, you're presuming that the words of a "religious authority" speak for the whole religion (in other words, that because they say X phenomena happens for Y reason, the whole religion must believe that). There are some phenomena that even science can't explain (where we should be able to explain it by modern methods). There are a couple other things I've seen on the HC, but I can't quite remember the names, so I'm having a hard time trying to look for it.
Oh, please. Miracles? I thought you were going to say something like the sixty-three properties of water that science does not presently understand.
 

Moosashi

Diabloii.Net Member
dondrei said:
The set that contains both A and A~. For example, is the colour pink an atheist or a theist? It's neither.
You're confusing the problem unnecessarily. The "meta-set" that contains pink does not contain any sensical answers to the question at hand. We're only concerned with the set of all possible answers to the question: Do you believe in god? There are two: yes or no. I don't know either means no because you can't believe in god and not know it or I need more time to formulate an answer. Notice the question is not does god exist? Again, it is do you believe god exists? One's status as an atheist or theist is about what one believes, not what is true.

For an "agnostic" to answer I don't have an opinion doesn't make sense because it's the answer to a different question: Do you have an opinion about the existence of god?

What this all comes down to is that disbelief may be reached by default and not necessarily by faith.
 

Dondrei

Diabloii.Net Member
Moosashi said:
You're confusing the problem unnecessarily.
Maybe, maybe not. We'll see.

Moosashi said:
The "meta-set" that contains pink does not contain any sensical answers to the question at hand. We're only concerned with the set of all possible answers to the question: Do you believe in god? There are two: yes or no. I don't know means no because you can't believe in god and not know it. Notice the question is not does god exist? Again, it is do you believe god exists? One's status as an atheist or theist is about what one believes, not what is true.
So what is your meta-set? All people? In that case, what about people who are brain-dead? Are they theists or atheists?
 

Moosashi

Diabloii.Net Member
dondrei said:
So what is your meta-set? All people? In that case, what about people who are brain-dead? Are they theists or atheists?
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by meta-set, but I think you're talking about the set in immediately above the sets of atheists and theists in the hierarchy. All people is fine. Brain-dead people would be atheists. They don't believe in god. Why they don't believe doesn't matter.

However, what we are really getting at is the set of answers to a yes/no question.
 

Dondrei

Diabloii.Net Member
Moosashi said:
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by meta-set,
I'm not sure what the technical word is (I never did much set theory) but for A and A~ to exist you need to define a set that contains both (and is partitioned by the complement, but I think we can ignore that for the purposes of this argument).

Moosashi said:
but I think you're talking about the set in immediately above the sets of atheists and theists in the hierarchy. All people is fine. Brain-dead people would be atheists. They don't believe in god. Why they don't believe doesn't matter.
But what if they were theists before they became brain-dead?

Moosashi said:
However, what we are really getting at is the set of answers to a yes/no question.
Not if you want to be able to say people are theists or atheists.
 

Moosashi

Diabloii.Net Member
dondrei said:
I'm not sure what the technical word is (I never did much set theory) but for A and A~ to exist you need to define a set that contains both (and is partitioned by the complement, but I think we can ignore that for the purposes of this argument).
Okay, that's what I got anyway.

But what if they were theists before they became brain-dead?
Then they became atheists as well as becoming brain-dead.[/quote]



Not if you want to be able to say people are theists or atheists.
Would you rather pose the question to a rock or a tree or the color pink?
 

Dondrei

Diabloii.Net Member
Moosashi said:
Then they became atheists as well as becoming brain-dead.
That's a silly definition. You can persist with it if you like, but of course seeing as it disagrees with every English definition I've ever heard I'd say it's a pointless exercise.

Moosashi said:
Would you rather pose the question to a rock or a tree or the color pink?
That's cheating, if you want to apply your argument to an object it has to be in your meta-set. With your present definition you can only say whether an ARGUMENT is atheistic or theistic, not a person.
 

WildBerry

Diabloii.Net Member
Moosashi and dondrei,

you've been at it for quite a while now. Even though you are predominantly preoccupied by the use of word in the English - to which OED could give support to either of you, after all, it only states atheism to be "the theory or belief that God does not exist", I would like to remind you that the uses of words are not logical practices but rather result of society's prolonged uses. Even though I would like to follow Moosashi's logic on the issue, I often find it difficult, for in Finnish (I take it might be the same at least in the other Nordic countries) the foreign word ateisti is synonymous with Finnish term jumalankieltäjä, literally, "one that denies [the existence of / himself the alliance with] god". So if there's same sort of thing going on in the language, there is little even profound logic can do to steer it's direction. "If language were logical" is a nice game of thought, but it's not like it's going to happen.

EDT: A part that was better situated in other thread was removed.
 
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