RedemptioN's 65FCR, 48FHR Sin Setup Experiment

[RedemptioN]

RedemptioN's 65FCR, 48FHR Sin Setup Experiment

Reason behind this Mini-Guide
There's been some debate in these Diablo II forums about the best setup for an assassin using 65fcr and 48FHR. I sparked the debate between setups in Ollie's WW/Trapper guide located here: http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=516304 (I think I bring up the topic of a possible gear change for him at around page 24).

He, and many perm build assassins like him, use an fcr circlet in combination with verdunogs because such players believe it gives them the most life. Curious about this theory, I decided to turn to my Single Player editor, Zonfire99 to test it out.

I used the basic information from Arreat Summit...
Starting Attributes
Strength: 20
Dexterity: 20
Vitality: 20
Energy: 25

Hit Points: 50
Stamina: 95
Mana: 25

Each Character Level
Life +2
Stamina +1
Mana +1.5

...and calculated at level 92 (Just a random level, not too low, but not unreasonable like 99), an assassin has base 232 life and 162 mana, with 470 stat points [(91*5) + 15] Note: the +15 comes from the three stat quests that give +5 stats.

With this knowledge, I started gearing my assassin.

Gear
In the debate, HappyAssassin used a Circlet/Dungos build, as I stated earlier. Originally, I suggested using a CoA/Spider build to achieve more stacked res. But earlier today, I thought of a third build: Shako/Spider.

All of these builds achieve 65 FCR and 48FHR.
All the builds keep the same claws: Chaos Suwayyah and a Fury Runic Talon (Claw IAS Bugged); same switch gear: 6BO CTA, Eth Spirit Monarch; same rings: Perf Rfrost (250AR/20Dex), FCR Ring (10FCR/81Mana/15All Res, 36LR); same gloves: Trangs; same ammy: 2Sin/15FCR/17 Mana.

The charms that were used in this experiment include: Perfect Annihilis Charm, Perfect Hellfire Charm, 40 Life Shadow GCs, 20 Life SCS (No mods).

The variables that change, however, are the Helmets, the Belt, and the Boots (because Shadow Dancers vs Imp Shanks [UsWest boots - 30FRW/20FHR/18STR/35FR/49LR/22PR] was brought up).

Many people think that since Shadow Dancers give +2Shadow Skills, 30 FHR, and 25 Dex, they give better results than boots like Imp Shanks. But int the end, the amount of Strength required to use Shadow Dancers (167) does NOT make up for the +25 Dex it gives, as you'll see in these tests.

The Results
1.) CoA/Spider/Shadow Dancers Build
Note: The Crown of Ages was Jah'd and -15Req/15Ias Jewel'd.

Base Stats (+Amount of stats added to wear gear)/Stats with Gear
STR: 58 (+38) / 177
DEX: 34 (+14) / 115
VIT: 438 (+418) / 478
NRG: 25 / 65

Base Res / Res After Fade:
FR: 27 / 75
CR: 57 / 75
LR: 48 /75
PR: 27 /75

Lvl 15 BO, Lvl 26 Fade

Life / Mana
3946 / 616
2.) CoA/Spider/Imp Shanks Build
Note: The Crown of Ages was Jah'd and -15Req/15Ias Jewel'd.

Base Stats (+Amount of stats added to wear gear)/Stats with Gear
STR: 21 (+1) / 158
DEX: 55 (+35) / 115
VIT: 454 (+434) / 494
NRG: 25 / 64

Base Res / Res After Fade:
FR: 62 / 75
CR: 57 / 75
LR: 75 /75
PR: 49 /75

Lvl 15 BO, Lvl 24 Fade

Life / Mana
4035 / 616
3.) Circ/Dungos/Shadow Dancers Build
Note: The Circlet had the following stats, in order to try to make it fair for people arguing in favor of circlets. Since they said circlets can give not only +40 life, but also +stats (and therefore save more points for vit), I gave this circ +10 strength (fairly reasonable when looking at it's other mods too.)

Note2: In order to achieve 48 FHR with a circlet and verdungos, one must add fhr to their setup. So, giving the sin the most life possible, the circlet was Jah'd and 1 FHR GC was used.

Circ Stats: 2Sin/20FCR/40Life/10Strength (Jah'd)

Base Stats (+Amount of stats added to wear gear)/Stats with Gear
STR: 48 (+28) / 177
DEX: 34 (+14) / 115
VIT: 448 (+428) / 528
NRG: 25 / 65

Base Res / Res After Fade:
FR: -15 / 52
CR: 15 / 75
LR: 6 / 73
PR: -15 /52

Lvl 13 BO, Lvl 26 Fade

Life / Mana
3997 / 583

Note that this build does NOT achieve max res in Hell: charms with res must be used, therefore this build has almost NO stack. Good luck vs Blizzers, FoHers, etc.

If we were to compare the Circlet/Dungos/Shadow Dancers build to the CoA/Spider/Shadow Dancers we could note the following:
Build with more life: Circ and Dungos (by 51 life after BO)

4.) Circ/Dungos/Imp Shanks Build
Note: The Circlet had the following stats, in order to try to make it fair for people arguing in favor of circlets. Since they said circlets can give not only +40 life, but also +stats (and therefore save more points for vit), I gave this circ +10 dexterity (fairly reasonable when looking at it's other mods too.)

Note2: In order to achieve 48 FHR with a circlet and verdungos, one must add fhr to their setup. So, giving the sin the most life possible, the circlet was Jah'd and 2 FHR GCs were used.

Circ Stats: 2Sin/20FCR/40Life/10Dexterity (Jah'd)

Base Stats (+Amount of stats added to wear gear)/Stats with Gear
STR: 20 / 157
DEX: 55 (+25) / 115
VIT: 455 (+445) / 545
NRG: 25 / 65

Base Res / Res After Fade:
FR: 20 / 75
CR: 15 / 75
LR: 55 / 75
PR: 7 /75

Lvl 13 BO, Lvl 24 Fade

Life / Mana
4017 / 583

If we were to compare the Circlet/Dungos/Imp Shanks build to the CoA/Spider/Imp Shanks build we could note the following:
Build with more life: CoA Build

5.) Shako/Spider/Shadow Dancers Build
Note: The Shako was Jah'd.
Note2: In order to achieve 48 FHR with Shako, Spider, and Shadow Dancers, one must add fhr to their setup. So, giving the sin the most life possible, the Shako was Jah'd and 2 FHR GCs were used.

Base Stats (+Amount of stats added to wear gear)/Stats with Gear
STR: 56 (+36) / 177
DEX: 32 (+12) / 115
VIT: 442 (+422) / 484
NRG: 25 / 65

Base Res / Res After Fade:
FR: -15 / 53
CR: 15 / 75
LR: 6 / 74
PR: -15 / 53

Lvl 16 BO, Lvl 27 Fade

Life / Mana
4022 / 766
Note that this build does NOT achieve max res in Hell: charms with res must be used, therefore this build has almost NO stack. Good luck vs Blizzers, FoHers, etc.

6.) Shako/Spider/Imp Shanks Build
Note: The Shako was Jah'd.
Note2: In order to achieve 48 FHR with Shako, Spider, and Imp Shanks, one must add fhr to their setup. So, giving the sin the most life possible, the Shako was Jah'd, 2 FHR GCs and 1 FHR GC were used.

Base Stats (+Amount of stats added to wear gear)/Stats with Gear
STR: 20 / 159
DEX: 53 (+33) / 115
VIT: 457 (+437) / 499
NRG: 25 / 67

Base Res / Res After Fade:
FR: 25 / 75
CR: 20 / 75
LR: 60 / 75
PR: 12 / 75

Lvl 16 BO, Lvl 25 Fade

Life / Mana
4069 / 766
Comparing this build to all of the others, this build achieves the most life and mana while maintaining great resists in hell, 65fcr and 48fhr.

Conclusion
While one may believe that a circlet and verdungos build will give them the most life possible while maintaining 65fcr and 48 fhr, they are mistaken. Also, using Shadow Dancers without CoA will not give you max res in hell without outside res (Charms, Ammy, Wizgloves - ew..., etc).

So basically #6 is the way to go.

 

[TienJe]

well if you include shako into the mix, you need to address the fact that the shako build will be 5% dr short in comparison to the other coa/circlet setups.

 

[RedemptioN]

well if you include shako into the mix, you need to address the fact that the shako build will be 5% dr short in comparison to the other coa/circlet setups.

I realized this but figured that 5DR was worth the loss, as Zons are generally very easy for WWsins, BvCs are just about always untouchable, Smiters aren't too difficult, and Druids are fairly easy.

 

[TienJe]

I realized this but figured that 5DR was worth the loss, as Zons are generally very easy for WWsins, BvCs are just about always untouchable, Smiters aren't too difficult, and Druids are fairly easy.

well given that logic, you could use a circlet/spider/imps/maras build and come out with even more life :azn:

 

[RedemptioN]

well given that logic, you could use a circlet/spider/imps/maras build and come out with even more life :azn:

=.= Now we're talking about 15DR lost. But yea, that's definitely a possibility vs casters, but then you're talking about specific setups vs specific chars, which obviously have their own optimizations. Shako build gives you lots of life and enough DR to be equally balanced vs melee and casters in my opinion.

 

[CaptnSparrow]

You gave the circlet pretty bad stats.


Usually circlets give a build around 30 resist in all (~15 base a 15 from Jewel). That'd push res into the max area. As far as Blizzers and Conviction users go, none of your setups provide enough stacked res to tank them. In fact, the only builds I can think of that can tank such things without some charm changes would be Wind Druids, Hammerdins, and some Es Sorcs.

 

[order]

actually circ/fcr ring/ mara/ spider/ imps builds can build in decent stack to tank most fohers fairly easy considering there is light res on your circlet (+ res/ias jewel) and your fcr ring has a light resist mod as well.

on my sin i believe i achieve around 80 light stack in hell (not including the anya bug)

as for the shako build, i am considering trying this on my sin once i get her up to level 90 as an anti melee device, since i believe it will work considerably better than my usual dungos switch against barbs. the +all skills, huge life bonus, and DR could possibly throw my sin into the 4.2-4.3k life range and bring my overall DR to about 45.

 

[RedemptioN]

actually circ/fcr ring/ mara/ spider/ imps builds can build in decent stack to tank most fohers fairly easy considering there is light res on your circlet (+ res/ias jewel) and your fcr ring has a light resist mod as well.

on my sin i believe i achieve around 80 light stack in hell (not including the anya bug)

as for the shako build, i am considering trying this on my sin once i get her up to level 90 as an anti melee device, since i believe it will work considerably better than my usual dungos switch against barbs. the +all skills, huge life bonus, and DR could possibly throw my sin into the 4.2-4.3k life range and bring my overall DR to about 45.

If you wanna tank FOHers, slap on a Kiras Guardian, spider, 15fcr ammy. You can also swap out fury for fools and use Wisp instead of Rfrost if you wanna go BM. But of course, that's for a specific char setup rather than a main setup.

 

[aznbboi16]

One thing I'd like to point out is that -15req/15ias jewels (which you used in your CoAs) do not exist on closed realms.

 

[RedemptioN]

That's a typo. I used a -15REQ/15 RES jewel. My bad.

 

[stephan]

Now you made the same typo again, or your jewel doesn't exist. Freedom and Fervor are both suffixes and rares can't have Fervor.

 

[RedemptioN]

Edited. Omg. Lollllll

 

[HappyAssassin]

Hmm I dunno if you wanted me to respond to this or what...

Circlet/Dungos/Dancers was the most effective setup for my sin. I play with 30 FHR, not 48, because it suits my style of play. Whatever conclusions were reached via this experiment, the circlet setup is unique to the particular circlet used. My sin, for example, had maxed resists in hell. In my particular case, I had a 27 Resist all on my circlet, 16 fire res on my ammy, 11 res all and 16 additional res light on my ring. Gear varies a lot. There are sins who weapon speed bug, and sins that don't. That'll effect life. There are sins that gear switch, and sins that don't. That'll effect life too. People have varying levels of wealth, which also effects their builds. What works for one player will work differently from another. Even across realms, there are differences. WW/Trappers can be flat out better on Europe than on other realms because of their belts. These differences are a consequence of playing a character dependent on rares and crafts, no two are the same.

It seems to me that this thread is a rather elaborate attempt to "prove me wrong." In my opinion, there is nothing to be proven here. If the idea is to some how debunk my guide, I think that the dozens of players who've made successful assassins with it are better evidence of its veracity (or lack thereof) than this experiment. If the idea is to present other options, then more power to it. As I stated in the beginning of my guide:

Since I started playing Diablo 2, I’ve primarily played Assassins. I love the class, especially its versatility. I feel that over my time playing, I’ve played enough assassins, experimented with enough builds, and gained sufficient skill and experience to offer up this guide to help other players use the class to its potential. I don’t claim to be the absolute best with this character, but I am one of the best, and this guide is based on a very long period of testing, building, testing and rebuilding.

No where in here does it state that my guide will build you the best possible assassin for all circumstances. What it does say is that all the advice I give is based on my personal experience. Why are Imps not even mentioned in my guide? I made my assassin on ladder, so perm imps were not available. As a happy coincidence, the lack of realm specific dupes also makes the guide universal. The point I'm trying to make is the same one I've been making this whole time. Find the setup that works for you. I personaly would never put a Shako on a WWsin, but that's just me.

 

[RedemptioN]

Hmm I dunno if you wanted me to respond to this or what...

Circlet/Dungos/Dancers was the most effective setup for my sin. I play with 30 FHR, not 48, because it suits my style of play. Whatever conclusions were reached via this experiment, the circlet setup is unique to the particular circlet used. My sin, for example, had maxed resists in hell. In my particular case, I had a 27 Resist all on my circlet, 16 fire res on my ammy, 11 res all and 16 additional res light on my ring. Gear varies a lot. There are sins who weapon speed bug, and sins that don't. That'll effect life. There are sins that gear switch, and sins that don't. That'll effect life too. People have varying levels of wealth, which also effects their builds. What works for one player will work differently from another. Even across realms, there are differences. WW/Trappers can be flat out better on Europe than on other realms because of their belts. These differences are a consequence of playing a character dependent on rares and crafts, no two are the same.

It seems to me that this thread is a rather elaborate attempt to "prove me wrong." In my opinion, there is nothing to be proven here. If the idea is to some how debunk my guide, I think that the dozens of players who've made successful assassins with it are better evidence of its veracity (or lack thereof) than this experiment. If the idea is to present other options, then more power to it. As I stated in the beginning of my guide:



No where in here does it state that my guide will build you the best possible assassin for all circumstances. What it does say is that all the advice I give is based on my personal experience. Why are Imps not even mentioned in my guide? I made my assassin on ladder, so perm imps were not available. As a happy coincidence, the lack of realm specific dupes also makes the guide universal. The point I'm trying to make is the same one I've been making this whole time. Find the setup that works for you. I personaly would never put a Shako on a WWsin, but that's just me.

Ollie, this was in no way a personal attack, or even addressing YOUR sin(s). This was honestly for ME and MY new sin, as selfish as it may be. You know i'm making a WoF/WWsin and the idea was just sprung up that CoA might not be the best build. So I tested it and it turns out I like Shako better. Sorry if there was any confusion or anything.

But yea, find w/e works for your sin or w/e you feel most comfortable with. I kinda like the idea of shako on a sin: a cheap solution granting lots of life and mana especially. All the builds posted on this thread gave very good life. Even the ones that had more life only had about 200 more life at max. That's really not going to affect how well your sin does if played correctly. I'm gonna use Shako because it gives me a great amount of mana, which I found was a problem on my previous sin.

So stick to w/e you like and like to work with. This was my own experiment for my own benefit, I just felt like since I did all that work to help myself, I might as well share it with everyone on these forums. :laugh:

 

[Paladine]

Shako gets no style points, case over.

 

[HappyAssassin]

Ollie, this was in no way a personal attack, or even addressing YOUR sin(s). This was honestly for ME and MY new sin, as selfish as it may be. You know i'm making a WoF/WWsin and the idea was just sprung up that CoA might not be the best build. So I tested it and it turns out I like Shako better. Sorry if there was any confusion or anything.

Okay cool. Yah, was something about the wording I guess. See you online .

 

[RedemptioN]

Shako gets no style points, case over.

I personally think it's cooler that a less expensive setup turns out to yield the most life and mana for my assassin. So in my opinion, that gets more cool points.

 

[TienJe]

I personally think it's cooler that a less expensive setup turns out to yield the most life and mana for my assassin. So in my opinion, that gets more cool points.

we should develop builds based on using all one colored eqiupment.

DISCO BATTLES. :afro:

 

[RedemptioN]

we should develop builds based on using all one colored eqiupment.

DISCO BATTLES. :afro:

LOLLL OH FO SHO. <3 the smiley.

 

[HappyAssassin]

Sooooo, would a shako setup have to wear gear that's all poop brown?