Latest Diablo 3 News
DiabloWiki Updates
Support the site! Become a Diablo: IncGamers PAL - Remove ads and more!

[rant] DClone misconceptions

Discussion in 'Diablo 2 Community Forum' started by Frenzied Bovine, Mar 10, 2004.

  1. Frenzied Bovine

    Frenzied Bovine IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2003
    Messages:
    1,640
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    [rant] DClone misconceptions

    Hi.

    I've seen it posted in a number of places that "ip hunting", "exploiting" and otherwise triggering the dclone event is exploitation.

    I strongly believe that the World Event was designed SPECIFICALLY so that we - the Diablo players - could, in fact, HAD TO organize ourselves and cooperate to really make the most of it.

    The seeds of this belief come from a interview prior to 1.10. I remembered a Blizzard rep saying that it was a "social experiment" of sorts. So I went looking today and happened to find this quote on the diabloii.net web site:

    http://www.diabloii.net/features/v110-patch.shtml

    I've bolded two elements of what Bill Roper says in this interview.

    The first is his statement that the World Event is to "see if we can get the community to do stuff". Note the use of the word community. Not individuals. Not dupers.

    The second is simply Bill Roper stating what many have denied: that the World Event was always designed to be triggered by SoJ. Yes, this rewards 1.09 dupers - but it also rewards everyone else for jumping on the dupe elimination bandwagon.

    And let me clear up one thing: selling SoJ's to merchants is dupe elimination. There is a reward involved, but at a cost. When considering the reward, consider the cost - and next time you see the SoJ counter at over 2000 sold, have a little laugh to yourself. I always do.

    So we have two aspects at play here:

    1) It's a social experiment by Blizzard, to see if "the community" can act on something
    2) It's a way to get rid of SoJ, and for the community to pressure those with duped soj to sell them "for the greater good"

    Both are, in my opinion, true. While the world event is a way of eliminating duped SoJs, it is also a commuity thing and therefore was DESIGNED so that people could figure it out and then would work together to make it happen. This is why Blizzard has not come down hard on the groups that have organized themselves out-of-the-blue to coordinate the selling of SoJ and the spawning of DClone. That spontaneous community effort was one of the hoped-for side effects all along!

    (Aside: I would look for similar initiatives - more complicated and far less frequently triggered - to appear in the upcoming World of Warcraft. Perhaps realm-wide "events" involving permanently world-altering storyline elements. We've proven we'll band together if the reward is there. I hope Blizzard runs with that.)

    In my opinion, "ip searching" and "dclone hunting" are justified. Why? Without other people trying to and succeeding getting on the same ip, only the dupers would benefit from sojs sold. Being able to get in on the action and get yourself a clone is your way of ensuring that the dupers aren't the only ones who benefit from their cheating. Everyone wins, as opposed to nobody wins, or only a very elite cadre of dupers winning.

    The METHODS by which the ip searching is performed are another matter - I have no sympathy for bots or third party hack programs that mechanically do it for you. I do (or did; past tense) my ip hunting by hand, thanks. Sure, it took me five to ten seconds longer than it would a bot. (This is a good thing.)

    There is a third aspect to the dclone issue, and that is loading down specific battle.net servers. As far as I know, each server (ip) has a set maximum of how many games it will host. If it is near it's maximum, no more games will be allowed on that server - the games will be distributed to other ip's.

    Now, while one might think that a lot of people trying to get on server X would place a heavy load on X. I would point out three facts..

    1) Blizzard's game creation places you on a random server ip. You can't control where you go, and so you can't really hammer one specific server with a ddos-like game creation "flood". Instead, you're distributing your game creations across the entire server pool, effectively minimising the impact.

    2) At any given time, MF'ers (whether they are botting or not) are probably creating just as many games on just as many and varied servers as you are while you search for your clone ip - quite possibly more if they're Blizzard sorcs doing pindle in 10 seconds flat. Searching for a clone, from the perspective of game hosting, is no different than the process of mf'ing - it's simply a stream of games one after the other in quick succession.

    3) Once you find the ip you want, you stay on it and do stuff.. like idling, mf'ing, posing in town, whatever. Point being, you are effectively taken OUT of the pool of people who hammer on the servers with game after game. While the MF'ers and Baal runners contine creating games with no end in sight, you've stopped. You've found your place, and won't be making any more games for a while. This is actually a reduction of stress on the server pool.

    Based on these three points, I hold the opinion that hunting for the dclone is no more or less stressful on the servers than a series of quick runs of pindle or similar mf targets. I really don't understand objections to the idea of searching for a dclone or a specific server ip; it's more or less exactly like MF'ing, except instead of killing an ALWAYS spawning monster to check if [item] MAY drop, you check to see if a monster you know is ALWAYS gonna drop [item] MAY spawn. And like mf runs, you can go through long "dry" spells where you get no love.

    To re-emphasise a point... I feel that employing a third party program to mechanically search for IP's is, IMO, as bad as employing a third party program to bot pindle. In both situations you are creating and completing games quicker than a normal human could do so and taking all of the (somewhat dubious) "effort" out of the clear eventual reward.

    Lastly, objecting to dclone on the grounds that duped SoJ's are being sold is, IMO, ridiculous. You're objecting to the willful elimination of dupes, and if you ever use an Annihilus, you're a hipocrite.

    Comments, opinions welcome. Flames will be redirected to /dev/null. If for some strange reason you still do not believe SoJ's have anything to do with the World Event, please don't bother replying to this thread.
     
  2. Eric1285

    Eric1285 IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2004
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    Well written. I think a lot of those points are valid...although I'm going to wait to comment because I haven't played 1.10 yet. (Need a cd key!!!)
     
  3. Usufruct

    Usufruct IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2003
    Messages:
    2,858
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Yay Unix :) Do you use procmail to direct mail?

    Anyway, great post, and very interesting arguments. A good read to be sure :)
     
  4. warlock_666

    warlock_666 IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2003
    Messages:
    876
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    I assume this is in response to my thread, and i may not have made it clear in there, i did all my IP searching by hand aswell. Just to clarify.
     
  5. Kitten~The~Evil

    Kitten~The~Evil IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2003
    Messages:
    356
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Very good points Frenzied - well thought out. I especially like the points of IP searching/DC hunting versus MF'ing. Bravo!

    :winner:
     
  6. Schwhat

    Schwhat IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2003
    Messages:
    135
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    26
    Uh who the heck are you? I think it was answered in your own post that regardless who you say you are that you are not allowed to beg for a CD key on these forums.

    Also note, you could be a spammer or scammer who lost their CD key and too cheap to buy another one. I don't think you should be asking in your first posts here; especially when no one can identify you as a previous member of this community.

    Anyhoo, great read. Article has good points!
     
  7. Eric1285

    Eric1285 IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2004
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    If you want to piss and moan, do it in my thread. Not in Bovine's thread. I'd love to have my old account back, but alas, the forum crash I read about must have deleted it. It was about 2 years ago anyways. None of my email addresses (present and past) are recognized when I search.

    Bovine, sorry that you have to put up with the slight thread hijacking. Again, great post, and I'll come back as soon as I get to play some more.
     
  8. Dredd

    Dredd D3 Off Topic Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2004
    Messages:
    8,152
    Likes Received:
    205
    Trophy Points:
    142
    Well said Frenzied. However, you know just as well as I do that there will always be that certain element of the community that will close their eyes and refuse to believe your argument, even though most of us know that it's dead accurate.

    Of course the World Event was designed to work exactly the way that it does for reasons that anybody who can read Bill Roper's own words knows is obvious and intentional. The fact that Blizzard linked it to duped soj selling was a brilliant move.

    I cannot believe how controversial a subject IP-hunting has become -- and I'm even more surprised at how many people continue to disbelieve the simple fact (and it's not a theory either, boys and girls, it's a fact -- proven daily) that the world event is triggered by player-sold sojs. I deal with those two subjects on these boards and in my PM box every single day.


    Well said! I mentioned this myself in this thread and I'll say it one more time:

    If you are the type that likes to complain that IP-hunting and soj selling is a gross exploitation of the game, never fight DC if he shows up in your game and certainly do not ever covet an Annihilus. Doing either will make you a hypocrite.

    [/rant]
     
  9. Frenzied Bovine

    Frenzied Bovine IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2003
    Messages:
    1,640
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    This was never intended to be directed at anyone in particular. Simply to combat the notion I see rising up that hunting for dclone is, by itself, "a bad thing".

    I don't believe that and wanted to argue in support of that.

    Dredd, I would love to include an opinion peice like this one in a huge dclone fact sheet. But only as an opinion peice.

    The rest of my contribution to that fact sheet would likely be in the form of my understanding of how b.net realms are set up. And I can't even read the .dll game code :p
     
  10. Dredd

    Dredd D3 Off Topic Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2004
    Messages:
    8,152
    Likes Received:
    205
    Trophy Points:
    142

    I agree 100%. Everything you wrote in your original post is excellent and should be part of the actual DC guide -- which is slowly transforming from a short FAQ to a massive 50 page monster (I promise I'll try to shorten it :p).

    For the actual facts on how the realms are set up, I am actually trying to get that information from a Blizzard representative as we speak. I'm also trying to get their opinions on the whole IP-hunting issue for the guide itself.

    I've been trying to contact Bill Roper also, but I haven't been successful yet.

    The irony of all this is: Between trying to actually level-up some characters and write the guide, I've had absolutely no time to hunt for DC for weeks now -- or trade for more sojs to do another round of testing. :lol:
     
  11. RTB

    RTB IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2003
    Messages:
    5,108
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    120
    That wouldn't help anyway. Bnet servers have a few extra/modified .dll files, they don't exist at the client.
    All you could do is find out how DC gets spawned when the message is given (or the packet is sent), which is not important when you want to know how to spawn him in the first place.

    I still think it sucks that SP players don't get the charm. We don't waste your bandwidth, so why should we have 'less' extra features?
     
  12. Frenzied Bovine

    Frenzied Bovine IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2003
    Messages:
    1,640
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    [Technical Diversion]

    From what little I do know there is no packet sent to the client that says "spawn the clone". A packet containing the string message is sent, but that's just ordinary text, no big deal.

    The best way to get a clone in single player would be to mod the game. Perhaps a modder could create the clone at a specific location - or to open a red portal leading directly to the monster, ala the Secret Cow Level. The stats of the clone and the annihilus is all there, after all. It's just a matter of jury rigging the spawn.

    [/Technical Diversion]
     
  13. RTB

    RTB IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2003
    Messages:
    5,108
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Hmm, I had expected that to happen... but apparantly it doesn't. The string is already in the game files, so it doesn't have to be sent, or it actually is the packet that spawns DC. True, modding the game allows the fight with DC and the charm. But it's not legit, I would never play that mod with my original characters. It seems to taint them...
     
  14. DiMono

    DiMono IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    26
    I don't know, I think setting all unique monsters to be DCs would make for a pretty interesting game... :evil:

    The original post is exceptionally well written. When I opened it I was half expecting to see another one of those poorly thought out complaint threads that were so common when I was here all the time a year ago, and I must say the surprise was quite pleasant. I was actually thinking that it might look good as a guest article, to be added to the DC FAQ shortly thereafter. What do you think?


    Edit: Oh, could it be the packet triggers the string to print on the screen, and that's all it does?
     
  15. Frenzied Bovine

    Frenzied Bovine IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2003
    Messages:
    1,640
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    I would love if it were a guest article, but I tried submitting one and got no response. It was all about synergies.

    Then again, the article may have sucked, who knows?
     
  16. Lileofavelion

    Lileofavelion IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2003
    Messages:
    222
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    57
    It will make a good Guest Article. Sure beats some of those that are posted.

    I remember you got me into Dclone hunting by showing me the idling trick. Now I am the proud owner of 3 anni myself. :)
     
  17. ericbres

    ericbres IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2003
    Messages:
    320
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    77
    Thank you for the post Frenzied.
    I, for one, have had an "adjustment" in my thinking regarding the world event and IP hunting thanks to your post.

    I suppose I just needed the "other" point of view spellled out for me.
    Now ... if I can only get my lvl 79 Sorc to a point where she can tackle D-Clone ... maybe I will go hunting too.

    There are 4 things I have always wanted to own ...
    The Annihilus, Gheeds, SOJ and Silks.

    Currently ... I only have Silks. But sure do love them.
    (and yes, I know there is better armor out there. But I am only a measly lvl79 Sorc ... who isn't strong enough to MF for anything better ... YET)

    Anyway ... thanks for the post Frenzied ... it certainly opened my eyes.
     
  18. Frenzied Bovine

    Frenzied Bovine IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2003
    Messages:
    1,640
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Eric: Do the pit. Shouldn't be too hard at level 79. The pit can get you most items (though some would argue Meph and Pindle are better).

    Also, I should add that the clone has 95% resistance to all elemental damage types, but only 50% resistance to physical, and 0% to magical IIRC. A sorc is in trouble no matter what spell she uses. Try and shop a wand with charges of Lower Resist to cut into those resists.
     
  19. Usufruct

    Usufruct IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2003
    Messages:
    2,858
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Depending on what kind of sorc he has, the pit could be a pretty poor option. CL sorcs do well there.
     
  20. Frenzied Bovine

    Frenzied Bovine IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2003
    Messages:
    1,640
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Well, this being a dclone thread, I didn't want to get into the specifics of what kind of sorc build he has etc etc. He can always shoot around some PM's :)
     

Share This Page