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Raise Skeleton vs. Skeleton Mastery

Discussion in 'Necromancer' started by Aldeth the Foppish Idiot, Jun 15, 2010.

  1. Vodnik

    Vodnik Banned

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    Re: Raise Skeleton vs. Skeleton Mastery


    As one of the above posters said, foing full SM first gives significantly more life than RS. This is what I am refering to. Sorry if you because confused and believed I was speaking of damage(I guess I shouldn't have used bullets as an example). But Shotgun shells are bulky, and 9mm rounds are rather small. I thought you might understand.

    My bad for the horrible analogy. lol.


     
  2. XCodes

    XCodes IncGamers Member

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    Re: Raise Skeleton vs. Skeleton Mastery

    On the contrary, Diablo will slaughter a 1 SM, 20 RS army if you don't have a lot of +skills backing it up. His Fire Nova will take out half the life of the entire group and his Firestorm will kill at least 3 of them at a time. They're lucky they're usually in too close to get hit by pink lightning.

    The same can be said for Andariel. If you go down there with some 12 RS and 1 SM, her Poison Cloud attack will all but certainly kill them all before they can get any substantive damage out. You'll run out of corpses before she runs out of life.

    If you're not twinked, then at the very least it should be a 50/50 split until you get about 10 points in Skeleton Mastery, if not going all out 20 SM, 3 RS. If you don't, your army will get slaughtered by act bosses.

    Skeletons, by their nature, will kill whatever they come across. The trick early on is keeping them alive long enough to kill it.


     
  3. zrk

    zrk IncGamers Member

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    Re: Raise Skeleton vs. Skeleton Mastery

    At lvl 25 that would be 20 rs, 1 amp, 7 sm(yeah if you go there at lvl 19 with the build you suggest might get butt kicked, lol). That totally slaughters dia. Andy is a non-issue in my experience, surprised you brought it up. Anyway, SM has diminishing returns on life after a few points, no point in going nuts with it. While RS has augmenting returns on the damage, especially in the low levels.

    Also, 20 RS 1 SM has 95% more damage than 11 RS 10 SM, but 11 RS 10 SM only has 37% more total life. So you get more bang per hit point with the all out RS build.



     
  4. TurtleBay

    TurtleBay IncGamers Member

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    Re: Raise Skeleton vs. Skeleton Mastery

    Who said anything about 11 RS 10 SM. 12 RS 9 SM is much much better as you get the 6th skeleton. Clearly, if you are going to stop leveling raise skeleton and go mastery, you will stop at a multiple of 3. 15 RS and 6 SM is a more aggresive non-twink mix that gives 7 skeletons with 483 life and 200 DPS.

    With 12 and 9, 20 and 1 only has 48% more damage, not 80% (don't know where you got 95% from). The difference between each skeleton having 511 hitpoints and 275 hitpoints is pretty huge though.


     
  5. zrk

    zrk IncGamers Member

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    Re: Raise Skeleton vs. Skeleton Mastery

    the damage output over the total amount of life is the integral of damage per change of life over the total life. As a simplification assuming danage function being a constant, then the integral would be damage per change of life multiplied by life. Since the former is proportional to DPS, we can compare the total damage output over skellies' life by comparing the products of DPS and total life.
    9 rs 12 sm (with +3 wand) has 140k
    12 rs 9 sm (with +3 wand) has 168k
    15 rs 6 sm (with +3 wand) has 186k
    18 rs 3 sm (with +3 wand) has 177k
    20 rs 1 sm (with +3 wand) has 138k

    This is ignoring life regen though.. and on a lvl 19 char lol(low xp on dia at that lvl :crazyeyes: )

    On a more realisitc, lvl 25, it would be

    20 rs 7 sm 534k
    18 rs 9 sm 538k
    15 rs 12 sm 463k

    Conclusion: at lvl 25, attacking dia, the highest DPS build(20 rs 7 sm) has practically the same total damage output over life, but has the advantage of doing more damage everywhere else.

    EDIT: this is single skeleton life, but all skeleton damage, so a full RS build performs actually better than shown here



     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2010
  6. XCodes

    XCodes IncGamers Member

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    Re: Raise Skeleton vs. Skeleton Mastery

    No Decrepify? No Summon Resist? You'll need at least a +1 to each of those or else Diablo could easily roast that army. Getting that as a hard point in Summon Resist is superior given that CG and GM are both very useful skills to have. Ume's Lament, the best twinking wand ever, gives +Decrepify. If you're untwinked at 25, then you have 20 RS and 1 SM, which gets destroyed by Diablo regardless of other skills. 12 RS and 9 SM, on the other hand, can take him just fine.

    Total life doesn't matter, what matters is the life of each individual skeleton. Each individual skeleton has 86% more life with a 12 RS, 9 SM build, which substantially increases it's survivability against Diablo.


     
  7. zrk

    zrk IncGamers Member

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    Re: Raise Skeleton vs. Skeleton Mastery

    at lvl 25: 20(23 with 3rs wand) rs, 7 sm. kills diablo very fast. try it ;) because i have and i suspect you havent


    see my last post for elaborated theory. Though how important total vs single skeletons life is, depends on the distribution density function of damage dealt by diablo over the number of targets that are affected by it, a question of statistics.



     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2010
  8. Vodnik

    Vodnik Banned

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    Re: Raise Skeleton vs. Skeleton Mastery

    Only if you split it evenly.

    Regardless... this discussion is extremely tedious(and IMHO, pointless)

    Good luck guys :p


     
  9. XCodes

    XCodes IncGamers Member

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    Re: Raise Skeleton vs. Skeleton Mastery

    There are 5 things you're either not considering or ignoring.

    1) Your calculations suggest that a moderated approach (something along the lines of a 2.5:1 ratio) is the optimal approach for determining the amount of damage a skeleton does over it's entire lifetime, not 20:1.

    2) Regardless of your opponent, it's impossible for you to reduce damage by increasing the number of skeletons you have, and against the occasional monster that uses AoE attacks (including act bosses and some standard monsters like Vampires) your army takes more damage. Therefore, more skeletons lose life at the same rate or faster than fewer skeletons, which skews your overlay even more towards a moderated approach instead of a 20:1 approach.

    3) Your statistical overlay doesn't take into account HP Regen. Since HP Regen is based entirely on maximum HP, the higher HP skeletons from a moderated approach regen HP faster. If you take HP regen into account and note the change in results, the skeletons created from a moderated approach will gain more damage over their lifetime relative to the 20:1 approach.

    4) Your statistical overlay doesn't take into account the fact that because of their improved HP regeneration, skeletons generated from a moderated approach simply won't die, regardless of time, in some circumstances that would kill skeletons in the 20:1 approach. This is because the damage per second that a skeleton is taking has to exceed their HP regeneration in order to effectively damage them.

    For example, 12/9 skeletons regenerate about 12.4 HP per second while 20/1 skeletons regenerate 6.7 HP per second. As a result, if each of these skeletons take 10 damage per second, the 12/9 skeleton will live and the 20/1 skeleton will die. Even if this threshold is exceeded, the vast difference in lifetimes resulting from this regen might allow the skeletons to kill the offending attacker first. The 12/9 skeleton with 511 HP and 12.4/sec regen lives for 29 seconds when attacked at a rate of 30 damage per second. The 20/1 skeleton with 275 HP and 6.7/sec regen won't even live for 12 against the same damage. The gulf is so great that not even the pack's increased overall damage makes up for it.

    5) This approach doesn't take into account the scarcity of resources. Skeletons require mana and corpses to raise. Summoning the full pack of 20/1 skeletons to bring it's advantages to bear costs 200 mana and 8 corpses. The 12/9 skeletons, on the other hand, only costs 102 mana and 6 corpses. Further, until you summon those 7th and 8th skeletons for the 20/1 pack, the 12/9 pack is strictly superior. If you lose those 7th and 8th skeletons at some point, then the 12/9 pack is, again, strictly superior until they're resummoned. This may not matter when you start raising your army for the first time in the Cold Plains, but if you're fighting an act boss where corpses are scarce and you need your mana to keep up your CG and curses, it makes a huge difference.


     
  10. zrk

    zrk IncGamers Member

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    Re: Raise Skeleton vs. Skeleton Mastery

    My numbers were per single skeleton, not total life. And more skeletons is still effectively more life, since the probability density of damage function over number of skeletons is not uniformly the maximum skeleton number, but has ordinates over the other abscissae.

    If regen is a significant factor then surely skele life is long enough that DPS is significant also.. and youre still using a lvl 19 char to tackle diablo lol. With a lvl 25 char its a non issue, the problem of whether more points should be put to SM never arises, because there is no gain from putting more points there.

    ill send you some gold over hamachi if youre struggling dont worry :thumbup:

    Anyhow, heres a test 20/7 skeles survive fine.


    The worse case test, skeles still almost take dia down before the area attacks destroy them, and this is with no summon resist, no decrep, no clay golem.



     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2010
  11. TurtleBay

    TurtleBay IncGamers Member

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    Re: Raise Skeleton vs. Skeleton Mastery

    I guess the point is either way, you need 5+ SM before you face Diablo as this at least doubles the skeletons life. Some people get points for SM by not maxing RS right away. You get the points for SM by not getting anything but a 1 pt amp damage outside of RS and SM.
     
  12. XCodes

    XCodes IncGamers Member

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    Re: Raise Skeleton vs. Skeleton Mastery

    @zrk: Every single line in your last post is not only already accounted for in my own, but your attitude is insulting.
     
  13. zrk

    zrk IncGamers Member

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    Re: Raise Skeleton vs. Skeleton Mastery

    Ok sorry if insulted.. but the line you keep going at with 21 points in skellie skills is not reflective of reality. If you have that few points in skele skils then surely decrep and cg are available which solve the diablo problem by themselves, and if you dont, then you can afford to have the strong skels i had in my vid which also handle diablo well and rock everywhere else, the question of more SM never really arises
     
  14. minuses

    minuses IncGamers Member

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    Re: Raise Skeleton vs. Skeleton Mastery

    I say both are useful when making a summon necro.
     
  15. kaervek

    kaervek IncGamers Member

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    Re: Raise Skeleton vs. Skeleton Mastery

    I think it'd be better to have max DPS even if it means you have to resummon for big D once or twice.

    Personally I start out with a +3 RS, +amp, +SM wand which doesnt take much to shop in A1, max RS 1 point summon resist and by the time i reach diablo I buy a wand with +1/2 summon skills and decrep in A4 since decrep is a huge investment in skills at that level its better to just use a shop wand for the fight. Theres no point in weakening your build substantially at this point just for a single fight.

    Theres also the fact clay golem has a higher pull factor, so if you spawn clay golem on top of diablo he'll turn away from you skeletons to fry it. Normally recast my golem a LOT during that fight to keep the focus off merc/skele's.

    I dont normally put a hard point into amp until either i've got both RS/SM maxed or i replace the +3 RS wand permanently with aokl or a +3 summon wand
     
  16. weirdball

    weirdball IncGamers Member

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    @butcher That golem trick was a godsend tytyty <3
     
  17. Vphrism

    Vphrism IncGamers Member

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    All these maths are confusing and not very efficient. Here's a simplified and better way to tell the effective health pool of the minions using the skeleton claculator http://tph.tuwien.ac.at/~gottwald/necro_pet_calculator.html.

    Ignore all the other stuff like amplify and decrepify, and all the other nonsense provided by the other users.

    For this example, I will be using 21 total points.
    This is a comparison between having points into Raise Skeleton and Skeleton Mastery.
    20 points in Raise Skeleton and 1 point into Skeleton Mastery = This will be #1 Example
    12 points in Raise Skeleton and 9 points into Skeleton Mastery = This will be #2 Example

    #1 (20/1):
    275 Hit Points
    8 Skeletons
    258.8 Average DPS

    #2 (12/9):
    511 Hit Points
    6 Skeletons
    174.1 Average DPS

    Hit Point Difference: 236
    Average DPS Difference: 84.7 DPS

    Total Hit Points for Skeletons:
    #1 (20/1):

    275 x 8 skeletons = 2,220 Total Hit Points

    #2 (12/9):
    511 x 6 skeletons = 3,066 Total Hit Points

    Total DPS for Skeletons:
    #1 (20/1):

    258.8 x 8 skeletons = 2,070.4 Total DPS

    #2 (12/9):
    174.1 x 6 skeletons = 1,044.6 Total DPS

    Total Effective Health Pool for Skeletons:
    #1 (20/1):

    2,220 Hit Points + 2,070.4 DPS = 4,290.4 EHP

    #2 (12/9):
    3,066 Hit Points + 1,044.6 DPS = 4,110.6 EHP

    Conclusion:
    Overall the #1 example is the Winner by a very small margin.

    Honestly, the difference is very small so you don't really need to worry about it that much. But generally you would want to keep your Raise Skeleton at the same level as your Skeleton Mastery or above it to be efficient. It's only preference.

    Obviously, having a bit more mastery is better than just straight up Raise Skeleton because of Area of Effect spells cast by mobs and bosses. Quality (Skeleton Mastery) > Quantity (Raise Skeleton)

    Oh also, mastery gives your skeleton HP Regeneration as well so that's another consideration to take into. Honestly, you can never go wrong by going 1:1 ratio. It's probably the most efficient way to make sure your skeletons can handle anything that try to mess with them.

    God I love necroing outdated posts that will probably never see the light of day
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
    Entwilighter likes this.
  18. NoisemakerArrow

    NoisemakerArrow IncGamers Member

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    Of course they'll see the light of day, since the thread will be put back on the first page.
     

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