Rabies / Venom question

Voice

Diabloii.Net Member
Rabies / Venom question

I was asked how venom effects rabies when it goes off from using grief and you attack w/ rabies. I know i read about this somewhere but for the life of me cant find the thread. I also cant remember the answer, since I really never made a rabies druid I never had to think about this. Anyways an answer to this would be nice.
 

Yossarian

Diabloii.Net Member
Won't venom turn the first rabies victim into a .2 second poison attack then leave the rest of the cloud normal? Just a a guess based on how it works. I think poison jav works that way.
 
Yossarian said:
Won't venom turn the first rabies victim into a .2 second poison attack then leave the rest of the cloud normal? Just a a guess based on how it works. I think poison jav works that way.
If that is the case then should lvl 1 vemon with lvl 45 rabies + lvl 21 synergi give a nice damage I guess. Let's try to make some calcs :)

lvl 45 rabies with lvl 21 synergy = 36618-37264, according to chippy dips calculater. The damage is for 21.6 seconds.

Now you have level 1 venom activated and if it turns that damage to go for 0.2 seconds and has a stacking poison damage then you should have: 37k/(21.6*5) + 35 = 377 damage over 0.2 sec.

Now let's say you attack about 5 every second = 5 fpa. This will mean for every time you "hit" your poison damage will be activated, and reactivated just as you hit again ^^

The damage pr. second will then be 377*5 = 1885 damage (I have rounded down a lot of numbers so it could be a bit higher)

1.8k of poison damage / sec. isn't as high as I thought it would be :D so I don't think venom would be a good idea to activate with rabies :)
 

Black_Dog

Diabloii.Net Member
and besides... good luck landing 5 rabies bites in one second, you'd need some crazy AR.

And besides, rabies doesn't reset itself. Once bitten, the rabies will run through its duration and end. but i think i remember reading something somewhere that says that other psn damage (like psn nova) will interupt rabies thus eliminating one of it's few advantages over regular psn.. it's ability to kill.

EDIT: But don't quote me on that, cuz i really don't know.. anything that happened before i woke up this morning is just a haze.
 

Uzziah

Diabloii.Net Member
Lazy_BerZerker said:
. . .
lvl 45 rabies with lvl 21 synergy = 36618-37264, according to chippy dips calculater. The damage is for 21.6 seconds.

Now you have level 1 venom activated and if it turns that damage to go for 0.2 seconds and has a stacking poison damage then you should have: 37k/(21.6*5) + 35 = 377 damage over 0.2 sec.

. . .

The damage pr. second will then be 377*5 = 1885 damage (I have rounded down a lot of numbers so it could be a bit higher)

1.8k of poison damage / sec. isn't as high as I thought it would be :D so I don't think venom would be a good idea to activate with rabies :)
UM 37264 / 21.6 seconds is ~1725 per second.

1885 > 1725 by what 160 damage per second. Venom would add about 150 to 160 damage per second according to your calculations.

Venoms strength is it very high poison rate, the advantage comes when you hit multiple times in a short duration, if you are hitting fast enough to beat the 0.2 seconds (which by the way is actually 0.4 seconds-10 frames) then you will deal only damage based on poison rate. Using the correct 0.4 second duration you would only need to hit 3/5 rabies hits to get full poison damage at 5 frames per attack.

As a general rule poison is rate and duration with venom the durations are not a factor only the rate is applied, effectively if you are doing fast repeated attacks venom is stronger than the normal poison if you are using hit and run techinics then poison is stronger. Rabies is a melee attack that is fast and repeatative venom should work well with it.
 
Uzziah said:
UM 37264 / 21.6 seconds is ~1725 per second.

1885 > 1725 by what 160 damage per second. Venom would add about 150 to 160 damage per second according to your calculations.

Venoms strength is it very high poison rate, the advantage comes when you hit multiple times in a short duration, if you are hitting fast enough to beat the 0.2 seconds (which by the way is actually 0.4 seconds-10 frames) then you will deal only damage based on poison rate. Using the correct 0.4 second duration you would only need to hit 3/5 rabies hits to get full poison damage at 5 frames per attack.

As a general rule poison is rate and duration with venom the durations are not a factor only the rate is applied, effectively if you are doing fast repeated attacks venom is stronger than the normal poison if you are using hit and run techinics then poison is stronger. Rabies is a melee attack that is fast and repeatative venom should work well with it.
I am pretty sure I saw on the assassin forum that venom works like this: First you take it on = 0.4 duration, and then when you hit with a meele attack with it on then it should be 0.2. That's why I said 0.2.

A 0.2 second attack will be 1/5 of a second, and will in that way end precice as the next attack of the 5 fpa (5/25) will hit. As mentioned I rounded down a bit, and took 37k/(5*21.1), and yes I multiplied it by 5 again to go from the 0.2 sec to the damage every second you should do if you hit everytime (which is unlikely anyway).

So 37k/21.1 = 1712, and with venom adding about (I think it is ½*70*5) = 175 damage so it should be 1885, and as said before I rounded down a lot.
(This is level 1 venom as already mentioned)

The reason that venom then won't work well with rabies is that you will need high AR to hit all the time in stead of the one hit, and go defensive.

To be realistic 1.8k of damage in every hit will result in (vs a 50% Pr opponument) 1.8k/(6*2) = 157 damage or 31 damage pr. attack.

Sorry if there is any mistakes I guess you know more about that stuff than me :) but hey you learn by your mistakes ;)
 

Uzziah

Diabloii.Net Member
compendium said:
Assassin General FAQ

. . .

Q: Why do I still do Poison damage over 0.4 seconds with Venom, despite having an X poison damage item with a long duration?

A: When Venom is active, it converts the durations of all the poison sources on your equipment match its own(0.4 seconds). Consequently, the damages of all your poison sources are reduced to how much damage they would do over 0.4 seconds (for example, a 400 poison damage charm with a 5 second duration would be converted to 32 poison damage charm with a 0.4 second duration, when Venom is active). For this reason, external poison damage sources are usually useless when used with Venom. Despite this, keep a lookout for items with a high damage/low duration ratio, which may add a decent amount of damage to Venom, in addition to +skills and +poison skill damage mods.

Also, try to look at things in terms of ratios (this doesn't just apply to Venom, it applies to many chargeups and Traps as well). While 500 damage on Venom applied over 0.4 seconds may look paltry at first, look at it in terms of seconds(1250 damage/second, or even 12500/10 seconds) and you might change your mind. The only time you have to worry about the true duration (in Venom's case, 0.4 seconds, or 10 frames), is when you're checking whether you meet or exceed the listed duration with your attack, so you're doing the most damage/time possible(10 frames or below, in Venom's case). If you're attacking slower than the listed duration, you're not getting the most out of the skill, as there are instances where Venom's duration elapses, when you're still attacking(11 frames or above, in Venom's case).

Note: Venom's short duration unfortunately means that certain fast attacking skills (such as DTalon and its quick follow-up kicks) don't quite benefit as much as they do with other skills, per attack, as DTalon alone usually does high damage. Chargeups and other finishers truly benefit from Venom, however.

. . .
It is 0.4 seconds with any attack melee or ranged used while venom is on. Your real question in this thread should be does rabies count as a melee attack thus gaining venoms damage. If so the poison damage is based on 0.4 seconds and the combined rate of venom and rabies.
 
Uzziah said:
It is 0.4 seconds with any attack melee or ranged used while venom is on. Your real question in this thread should be does rabies count as a melee attack thus gaining venoms damage. If so the poison damage is based on 0.4 seconds and the combined rate of venom and rabies.
I didn't ask any question if you're meaning me ^^ but if venom is a 10 fpa, then I guess you could go with a 50% chance to hit rabies, and get a kind of 100% succes criteria? Anyhow I would say that the one hit wonder with rabies is a lot better :D
 

Voice

Diabloii.Net Member
All that posting and no clear answer :D ... anyone else want to give it a shot ... some ppl tested it and said that venom over-rides rabies ... and i dont think thats the case b/c I saw another person dueling w/ it and rebies seemed to work well while he had venom. Maybe just the first cycle is venom like suggested above?

Really looking for a concrete answer.
 

Silenced Voice

Diabloii.Net Member
from what i've seen with my druid, which is fury/rabies it takes full damage from rabies and compresses it into the venm time frame. Let me explain:

my char is lvl 83, and has no critical strike items equipped. If i hit an average barb with fury, i may land two swings. my fury damage is around 1k-1.5k. minimal effect on barbs, right? if i swing with rabies i infect the barb, doing around 35k-37k. with full resists (75%+) his life drops about 1/4 life bar per 3-4 seconds. my duration for rabies is ~19 seconds. now if i switch back to fury i can hit him again, doing the same amount of damage as before, which is not very much. If i equip my grief and infect him, then swing with fury its about the same damage. BUT, about 1 in every 6-7 hits his life bar would drop down from almost full, to around 200 hit points, almost instantly. then he would stop losing life from psn. i know this is unofficial, but from my playtesting it condenses rabies damage into venoms time frame. hope this helps.

SV
 

Voice

Diabloii.Net Member
I'm bumping this b/c I still havent received a concrete answer just a lot of "I think".
 

Black_Dog

Diabloii.Net Member
Voice said:
I'm bumping this b/c I still havent received a concrete answer just a lot of "I think".
True wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing. - Socrates

in other words, you're not going to get a concrete answer because there isn't one... it's all theory and concept... yes, we don't even know for sure if 2 + 2 = 4
 

Voice

Diabloii.Net Member
Black_Dog said:
True wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing. - Socrates

in other words, you're not going to get a concrete answer because there isn't one... it's all theory and concept... yes, we don't even know for sure if 2 + 2 = 4
You dont I do. Doesnt mean its true for everyone but for me 2+2=4 thus it is true in my own little world. Remember what is true for me doesnt necessarily mean its true for you. Your blue may be my white.
 

Black_Dog

Diabloii.Net Member
Voice said:
You dont I do. Doesnt mean its true for everyone but for me 2+2=4 thus it is true in my own little world. Remember what is true for me doesnt necessarily mean its true for you. Your blue may be my white.
And don't think i haven't thought of that before... and frankly, it blew my mind.

Anyway, umm... yeah, someone should really test this out.

Well hell dude, actually looking at the skill now it's quite plain to see that Venom ain't gonna do anything with the rabies damage. Venom only applies to weapon damage and therefore it's just like any other poison damage. Essentially it really won't help ya out too much.

EDIT: In other words, it's a stand-alone psn, it isn't based off of anything else. I don't know where all these other people are getting these theories of venom compressing the damage of rabies into .2 seconds... crazy talk if you ask me.

EDIT2: Grief gives a 35% chance of casting lvl 15 venom on striking. lvl 15 venom = 305-325 psn damage over .4 seconds. Nice punch if you ask me, but rabies wins out in the end. pardon me if my numbers are wrong, i don't play assys.
 

aznbboi16

Diabloii.Net Member
Well, I was always under the impression that Rabies overrides all other poison sources so venom would have no effect.

It's possible to test this with a VERY low damage claw (cracked katar?) and very high level venom.
Get a high life barb, rabies him, hit him with venom and see if the poison drains any faster when the sin attacks.
 

Uzziah

Diabloii.Net Member
You're asking the wrong question, you need to ask if rabies is a melee attack, if so then venom will change the duration of rabies on the rabies attack.

@ black dog venom is 0.4 seconds That was the arguement, the venom skill drops duration to 0.4 seconds which is 10 frames in game.

If you really want to test it get a rabies druid to attack something after venom has been cast on them, if the green tint goes away in 10 frames then the venom is added to the attack and the duration is altered, otherwise its not. It's really a simple test. The difference will be minimal if you are attacking continueously, if you are hitting and running then their is a huge damage difference.

I think rabies is considered a melee attack otherwise it would only give you the rabies damage not the extra damage from the weapon. In which case venom could control the duration length.
 

electricblue

Diabloii.Net Member
i had done some testing about this topic back when I started writing the hybrid wolf guide.
afaik, the following was the outcome:

when an opponent is infected with rabies and is also hit by another poison attack, highest poison rate is applied for its duration. when that wears off, rabies infects again.

i may test again if there is confusion
 

Black_Dog

Diabloii.Net Member
Oh i get it now. So from this knowledge (and if Rabies acts as a regular melee attack which i assume it does) we can conclude that Venom would happen first (provided it did more damage during that .4 seconds than rabies would do in that same ammount of time) and then Rabies takes over for the rest of Its duration.

Thanks for the insight, Electricblue, i did reference your guide when i first saw this question but i didn't find the answer :(... i guess i wasn't looking hard enough.
 

Voice

Diabloii.Net Member
He still wasnt sure about the answer bd ..... which means more testing is needed .... either by my lazy butt or someone else ... doh
 
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