Questions about eschuta, fathom, and facets

[ptitbob]

Questions about eschuta, fathom, and facets

I have a few questions about some damage % bonus I don't understand.

The first question is about Eschuta's Temper.
I've read that the +fire/lightning skill damage doesn't work as intended...

Basically, if I equip a +20% fire damage eschuta, will my damage be 20% higher? (Same question for lightning )
I've read on this forum that it will not work that way, the damage bonus would be added before the +skill items or something...
In this case, it would not be a really good orb?
Because adding 20% before the +skill is not a great bonus... the +skills usually give a HUGE amount of damage, the +20% before this add would be so small/irrevelant.. !?

This bring the 2nd question...
One of the weapon that seems to be the #1 cold sorc choice ( I'm only assuming, because I see people offering godly for it ) is the Death's Fathom...
This weapon add +30% cold damage, but... does it works?
If your frozen orb deal 1000 damage, will this weapon makes it 1300? ( or 1150 if it's only a 15% )

If someone who own eschuta or fathom could do a little testing for me, it would help me understand.
Something like :
"I deal X with fireball level 30 and HotO, I deal Y if I equip a +3/+20 eschuta instead of the hoto"

Or if there's a simple/exact explanation somewhere... :thumbup:

Last two questions are about the Rainbow Facet...
1st, does this damage is working like eschuta/fathom?
If you equip 4 * perfect rainbow facet, will your damage be 20% higher?
Or, again, is there some weird formula?

And last question, is there a list, somewhere, of the skills that are actually affected by the facets?

I've read that the lightning traps were NOT affected by facets, because they were considered "minions" by the game... but the sorceress' Hydras ARE affected, despite also being minions?

I don't want to play a guessing game with a jewel so valuable :scratchchin:

My question is mainly about these skills :

Poison Facets :
Poison nova
Poison javelin/Plague javelin
Rabies


Cold Facets :
Frozen orb
Blizzard
Hurricane

Lightning Facets :
Lightning sentry
First of heaven
Charged bolt

Fire facets :
Hydra
Fireball
Meteor
Fireclaw
The 5 druids Fire elemental skill ( I assume either "all of them work with facet", or "none of them work with facet" )


But obviously, if someone had a complete list of works/doesn't work, it would be even better ( I'm sure some other players are pondering the same questions :scratchchin: )

Thank you in advance :wink:

 

[Sass]

Re: Questions about eschuta, fathom, and facets

I've read that the lightning traps were NOT affected by facets, because they were considered "minions" by the game

True 100%. IDK about hydras, but the LS I know for FACT does NOT benefit from facets.

As for the +% element, I'd assume it works like physical ed% where it'd add up to other %. For instance, a facet in the helm is 5%, with eschuta's 20% would be 25%, not 20%, and then that added by 5% of it, or vise versa.

 

[omgwtfbbqpwned]

Re: Questions about eschuta, fathom, and facets

The first question is about Eschuta's Temper.
I've read that the +fire/lightning skill damage doesn't work as intended...

Basically, if I equip a +20% fire damage eschuta, will my damage be 20% higher? (Same question for lightning )
I've read on this forum that it will not work that way, the damage bonus would be added before the +skill items or something...
In this case, it would not be a really good orb?
Because adding 20% before the +skill is not a great bonus... the +skills usually give a HUGE amount of damage, the +20% before this add would be so small/irrevelant.. !?

Well, you have your damage, enhanced by bonuses attained from synergies, then multipled by +% Element factors, and then +Skills are considered. The reason a perfect Eschuta's Temper doesn't add much to a Fire/Lightning Sorceress is the fact that it's additive to your Masteries.

Meaning, at high levels, when your Fire Mastery and Lightning Mastery are like +300%, Eshuta's Temper will add directly to it, making it +320% (if you have a perfect one). Can you see why the damage added from +%Element here is quite small? +20% Lightning damage is equivalent to approx. +2 Lightning Mastery, and +20% Fire Damage is equivalent to approx. +3 Fire Mastery.

When comparing a perfect Eschuta's Temper to a perfect "Heart of the Oak", you're looking at:
+2 Lightning Mastery/+3 Fire Mastery/+60 Non-BO Mana
vs.
+40 All Resistance/+15% Mana

And you should consider that a perfect Eschuta's Temper is a lot more expensive too.

This bring the 2nd question...
One of the weapon that seems to be the #1 cold sorc choice ( I'm only assuming, because I see people offering godly for it ) is the Death's Fathom...
This weapon add +30% cold damage, but... does it works?
If your frozen orb deal 1000 damage, will this weapon makes it 1300? ( or 1150 if it's only a 15% )

Yup, Cold Mastery pierces resistance unlike FM/LM, so it's not a source of +%Element damage. It'll give a great boost (proportions-wise) to your cold damage compared to Eschuta's Temper.

If someone who own eschuta or fathom could do a little testing for me, it would help me understand.
Something like :
"I deal X with fireball level 30 and HotO, I deal Y if I equip a +3/+20 eschuta instead of the hoto"

[final damage] = [base spell damage] * [total synergy bonus] * [total mastery and gear bonus]

For example:
You have +3 Skills (either from ET or "HoTO").
Level 20 + 3 Fire Ball
Level 20 + 3 Fire Mastery
Level 20 Fire Bolt (synergy unaffected by +Skills)

259 base Fire Ball damage * 3.8 (Fire Bolt synergy bonus) * 2.84 (Mastery bonus) = 2795

Right now, it's at 2795 fire damage. [HoTO]

Eschuta's gives you an additional 20% Fire Damage, so the formula becomes:

259 base Fire Ball damage * 3.8 (Fire Bolt synergy bonus) * 3.04 (Mastery bonus) = 2992

The difference between HoTO and Eschuta's Temper = ~200 damage, which is rather small, proportionally speaking.

Last two questions are about the Rainbow Facet...
1st, does this damage is working like eschuta/fathom?
If you equip 4 * perfect rainbow facet, will your damage be 20% higher?
Or, again, is there some weird formula?

The +% Skill from facets work identical to how I showed you above. So yes, 20% additive boost to any current +% Element amount you already have. For this reasn, you'd rather have -% Element for Fire/Lightning and +% Element Cold on a Sorceress.

And last question, is there a list, somewhere, of the skills that are actually affected by the facets?

I've read that the lightning traps were NOT affected by facets, because they were considered "minions" by the game... but the sorceress' Hydras ARE affected, despite also being minions?

Hydras are not considered minions. It may seem that way because the Sorceress is like "summoning them", but the game doesn't consider them as "minions". Everything else that you think is a minion (Skeletons, Revives, Golems, Bears, Wolves, Vines, Valkryies, Shadows, etc.) is a minion.

Every non-minion skill works according to their element and gets boosts from +/-% Element, and the only exceptions are all among the Assassin.

Her traps are considered mnions, so they do not recieve any +/-% Element factors coming from the Asssasin herself. Another funny set that might concern you is her Charge-Up skills:

Whether +%Damage(eg. Facets) affects damage:

Fists of Fire:
First charge - Works
Second charge - Works
Third charge - Does Not Work

Claws of Thunder:
First charge - Works
Second charge - Does Not Work
Third charge - Does Not Work

Blades of Ice:
First charge - Works
Second charge - Works
Third charge - N/A (merely a duration bonus, +%Damage has no effect)

Phoenix Strike:
First charge - Does Not Work
Second charge - Does Not Work
Third charge - Does Not Work

Every skill you've listed works with Facets, except for Lightning Sentry, which is a trap.

Thanks for the time-killer, my porno is now finished and I can go watch. Hope this helps.

 

[maareek]

Re: Questions about eschuta, fathom, and facets

There's nothing wrong with the way the +damage on eschuta's works (as far as I know it works exactly as intended); most people just don't understand where the damage is added. The +% damage is added to the mastery bonus, and since that number is generally already large (let's say you're already at 400% damage added by light mastery) the extra 20% or w/e doesn't really make much difference. 420% isn't really noticeably larger than 400% with the damage numbers we're generally talking about, ya dig. That's why eschuta's is generally a poor choice for a weapon, assuming you can afford something better, of course.

On the other hand, there is no damage increasing mastery for cold sorc skills - cold mastery reduces enemy resistances and that is not the same thing - so the + damage from Death's Fathom is a huge boon. +30% actually does make a huge difference in this situation because that's the only increase in base damage that's going on (well, you may have Nightwing's or facets, but that's neither here nor there right now). 30% is a very noticeable improvement over 0%.

In other words, the displayed +% damage is the amount that's added to the base damage of your skill, but if you already have a lot of +% damage added to that skill (like what fire and lightning mastery add to fire and lightning skills, respectively) then the difference appears very, very small, and it's generally not worthwhile.

Keep in mind that the opposite is also true for this skills - fire and lightning skills improve greatly when paired with -Enemy Resistance items to that element, but cold skills gain very little from them.

As for the "minions" thing, all I can tell you is you're right in what you say there. Traps are considered minions so facets don't affect their damage, but hydras are affected by facets. That's just the way the game's programmed; I certainly can't give you a better explanation than that, and I don't really see how anybody else can give you a much better one. As far as I know, though, traps are the only instance where facets don't affect a skill that uses the element (well, besides skills that create a minion, of course).

Facets work as intended/as stated, except for the case of the traps, as far as I know. The only caveat I make to that statement is I'm not 100% sure about Hurricane, but I assume it works with cold facets, though I don't think it packs enough punch for it to really be noticeable either way.

I hope that helps.

Edit: Damn you, omg. Damn you. ;p

 

[omgwtfbbqpwned]

Re: Questions about eschuta, fathom, and facets

The only caveat I make to that statement is I'm not 100% sure about Hurricane, but I assume it works with cold facets, though I don't think it packs enough punch for it to really be noticeable either way.

I hope that helps.

Edit: Damn you, omg. Damn you. ;p

Someone on the Druid forum made a Hurricane Werebear using Aldur's set and... 10x perfect Cold Facets. :crazy:

It was quite amusing to watch videos of Hurricane killing others in PvP. PvM wise, I don't think it's worth it. Haha.

PS: you got pwned. My leet ninja skills are too quick.

 

[maareek]

Re: Questions about eschuta, fathom, and facets

Someone on the Druid forum made a Hurricane Werebear using Aldur's set and... 10x perfect Cold Facets. :crazy:

It was quite amusing to watch videos of Hurricane killing others in PvP. PvM wise, I don't think it's worth it. Haha.

Holy crap! 10?!? :crazyeyes: I'm totally going to have to find that. I can see how Hurricane could work in PvP, with the relatively low health of chars, but even with 10 perf facets I don't think it'd be effective PvM. Although that's a good case of throwing money at a problem, I guess.

PS: you got pwned. My leet ninja skills are too quick.

Totally. Of course, that's only because it's past midnight here and I'm about to fall out of my chair. ;p

 

[ptitbob]

Re: Questions about eschuta, fathom, and facets

Wow, I wasn't expecting such great answers!

I get it now, thanks everyone who replied! :thumbup: