Question about whirlwind damage calulation

[Hughgo]

Question about whirlwind damage calulation

My question is regarding how damage is calculated when dual wielding a grief ba (weapon 1) and and a rare ba (weapon 2) with fools mod (+max/ar based on char lvl).

Assuming max ias (4 frames attack) I understand that:

frame 4: only weapon 1 applies
frame 8: summation of both weapons 2 + weapon 1
frame 12: summation of weapons 1 and weapon 2
etc

My question is in frame 8 is the chance to hit only determined using the attack rating from weapon 2 (and then in frame 12 from weapon 1 only), a combination of both weapons or is a separate attack rating used for each weapon (i.e. the fools mod ar boost only applies to the rare ba so in frames 8+ only the damage from the rare ba will often apply)?

What I think/hope happens is the DAMAGE is calculated separately for each weapon (in frames 8,12,16 etc) and then the resulting damage is given a chance to hit based on the ar from fools mod everytime.

 

[sirpoopsalot]

Re: Question about whirlwind damage calulation

Only one weapon hits at a time, so you only get the damage from that weapon. Same for the AR. Most/all of the non-hitting weapon's bonuses do not add to that attack at all. However, there might be some mods that do carry over. For example, if you've got +dexterity in one weapon, it'll boost your AR, and I think that'll still work for attacks with both weapons... Maybe... Maybe not.

I'm not sure what works and what doesn't, but everything I've read here has +AR and damage (including CB, DS, CS, etc.) separated for each weapon when dual-wielding. I believe leech and -enemy defense are also separated.


I could easily be wrong though - I haven't tested any of this for fact.

 

[Hughgo]

Re: Question about whirlwind damage calulation

Only one weapon hits at a time, so you only get the damage from that weapon. Same for the AR. Most/all of the non-hitting weapon's bonuses do not add to that attack at all. However, there might be some mods that do carry over. For example, if you've got +dexterity in one weapon, it'll boost your AR, and I think that'll still work for attacks with both weapons... Maybe... Maybe not.

I'm not sure what works and what doesn't, but everything I've read here has +AR and damage (including CB, DS, CS, etc.) separated for each weapon when dual-wielding. I believe leech and -enemy defense are also separated.


I could easily be wrong though - I haven't tested any of this for fact.

OK so you think that damage is calcualated by:
frame 4: calculate damage of weapon 1, check if hit
frame 8: (calculate damage weapon 1, check if hit) + (calculate damage weapon 2, check if hit)

i.e. hit checks for both weapons before they are added

doesn't this make it unlikey that both weapons hit in the same frame? - kind of different to how I was thinking before - you either get no hit or combination of both hitting.

About dexterity I would assume it only applies to the weapon it's on i.e. if one weapon had +X str then that only enhances the damage of that weapon.

 

[sirpoopsalot]

Re: Question about whirlwind damage calulation

I think it's:

frame 4: weapon1 check
frame 8: weapon2 check
frame 12: weapon1 check

 

[Hughgo]

Re: Question about whirlwind damage calulation

I think it's:

frame 4: weapon1 check
frame 8: weapon2 check
frame 12: weapon1 check

Nono its definately not that unless you mean
frame 4: weapon1 check
frame 8: (weapon2+weapon1) check hit using weapon 2
frame 12: (weapon1+weapon2) check hit using weapon 1

 

[krischan]

Re: Question about whirlwind damage calulation

I think it's:

frame 4: weapon1 check
frame 8: weapon2 check
frame 12: weapon1 check

What would be the point of wearing two weapons then ? AFAIK both weapons are checked on later frames, but as soon as the one scores a hit, the other won't be checked anymore and only those with enough range are checked. Anyway, if it is like that (I'm not sure !), WW with two weapons doesn't seem to pay off well enough to justify not wearing a shield. WW with a two-hander is a different issue, but in PvP, blocking is essential in melee.

Also, doesn't the first hit come a bit earlier than subsequent ones or the late ones have some kind of delay ? I remember that I have read something about the "triangle of death" with respect to WW which takes advantage of that, but perhaps that was about an old patch.

I'm rather incertain about it. Perhaps somebody in the barb forum knows the answer.

 

[Hughgo]

Re: Question about whirlwind damage calulation

What would be the point of wearing two weapons then ? AFAIK both weapons are checked on later frames, but as soon as the one scores a hit, the other won't be checked anymore and only those with enough range are checked. Anyway, if it is like that (I'm not sure !), WW with two weapons doesn't seem to pay off well enough to justify not wearing a shield. WW with a two-hander is a different issue, but in PvP, blocking is essential in melee.

Also, doesn't the first hit come a bit earlier than subsequent ones or the late ones have some kind of delay ? I remember that I have read something about the "triangle of death" with respect to WW which takes advantage of that, but perhaps that was about an old patch.

I'm rather incertain about it. Perhaps somebody in the barb forum knows the answer.

The first part I've bolded is not true, information from arreat summit:

When dual-wielding, both weapons try to score a hit against the target. In other words, the game does a hit-check for each weapon. Since both weapons are given the chance to score a hit, the damage done over time is roughly the sum of the damage of both weapons, which is comparable to the damage done whirling with a two-handed weapon.

About blocking... it's not essential in my case since I'm using the char for dualing smiters and hammerdins (which can not be blocked).

In response to the second part I've bolded - frames 4 and 8 are free hit checks while subsequent frames depend on the weapon speed.

It seems as though it is like this:
frame 4: calculate damage of weapon 1, check if hit
frame 8: (calculate damage weapon 1, check if hit) + (calculate damage weapon 2, check if hit)

And the attack rating of the 2nd weapon (fool ba) would not help the chance to hit of the 1st weapon (grief ba) - would be good if someone can confirm this is true.

Thanks for the information about the barbarian forum - I will take a look there.

 

[krischan]

Re: Question about whirlwind damage calulation

In response to the second part I've bolded - frames 4 and 8 are free hit checks while subsequent frames depend on the weapon speed.

OK, then that's how you take advantage of it. By making short whirls you ensure that only the first two attacks are made and then you start a new whirl, so you can concentrate fully on damage and ignore on-weapon IAS. That needed a bit practice, but since we have BotD, it's not that much of an issue anymore, I guess.

Bonuses on a weapon which are related to fighting (%ed, IAS, ar, leech, ctc on hit etc.) only apply to attacks made by that weapon. Indirect bonuses (like those from +skills or auras) work on all attacks, of course.

 

[Hughgo]

Re: Question about whirlwind damage calulation

OK, then that's how you take advantage of it. By making short whirls you ensure that only the first two attacks are made and then you start a new whirl, so you can concentrate fully on damage and ignore on-weapon IAS. That needed a bit practice, but since we have BotD, it's not that much of an issue anymore, I guess.

Yea this is possible but hard to do perfectly every time since you must perform a tri whirl without letting go of the button and turn after 8 frames - if you stop a click again there will be a 4 frame pause between the whirls (can't see this info on arreat summit but its written in a good bvc guide on this forum):

There is a 4 frame pause between each Whirlwind even if it’s not noticeable sometimes. Due to this reason, extremely short Whirlwinds are bad because more time is wasted on the pauses

So having botd (or grief which gives a lot more damage) doesn't really change anything in terms of making it easier (oh..well it does make it easiersince you can over shoot by 4 frames and still be constantly hitting every 4 frames) but it allows you to do 12 frames on each side which is apparently the perfect tri whirl according to the guide mentioned.

Bonuses on a weapon which are related to fighting (%ed, IAS, ar, leech, ctc on hit etc.) only apply to attacks made by that weapon. Indirect bonuses (like those from +skills or auras) work on all attacks, of course.

Hmm so it seems the chance to hit of each weapon is calculated independently then you think?

 

[krischan]

Re: Question about whirlwind damage calulation

My point regarding BotD was that you are WWing at 4 fpa anyway (except for weapons like thunder mauls etc), so you can as well do longer whirls and have an easier time with it.

I think that the chance to hit for WW is calculated separately... well, at least I haven't heard otherwise. Better ask the pros in the barb forum, all I'm doing with WW are IK barbs, so I'm not really sure about WW and dual wielding :whistling:

 

[sirpoopsalot]

Re: Question about whirlwind damage calulation

meh, I was thinking of frenzy. :doh:

Hmm so it seems the chance to hit of each weapon is calculated independently then you think?

I do think so yes. The 2nd sentence in this explanation (copied from Arreat Summit): http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6562366&postcount=6


Also, earlier in that thread it states that only the 'primary' gets an attack check at the 4th frame, and after that the 8th, 12th, 16th, etc. frames both weapons can hit.