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Question about "goods" adressed to Thrugg

Discussion in 'Theorycrafting and Statistics' started by sangfagel, Mar 17, 2004.

  1. sangfagel

    sangfagel IncGamers Member

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    Question about "goods" adressed to Thrugg

    I read several of your posts where you mentioned "Good" items or "goods". For instance:

    "She drops a minute but non-trivial number of runes through her item drop too though.
    1/16 Items will be Good
    14/130 Goods will be Runes..."


    Could you explain this concept please? I don´t mail you private since I am sure that this matter can be interesting for many other members.

    Thank you in advance.
     
  2. moi

    moi IncGamers Member

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    He's talking about the "Good" TC. I'm in class and dont have a treasureclassex.txt next to me, so can't tell you exactly, but the "Good" TC contains runes, jewelry, and other similar things iirc. So 1/16 of the items dropped through the countesses' non-rune-specific drop will select from Act 1 (H) Good (possibly a different "good" through TC upgrading?) and of those, 14/130 will end up being runes. This is how the countess can drop up to, Ohm, I think (again going off of memory so unsure if this is quite correct), although she has bad odds for this; her rune only drop stops at gul, beyond that rune probabilities take a steep dive.
     
  3. Ruvanal

    Ruvanal IncGamers Member

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    Here is a partial TC listing as pertains to the countess. I skipped listing a lot of the recursive types of calls like with the equipment listings.

    Code:
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    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Picks[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Unique[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Set[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Rare[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Magic[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]NoDrop[/size][/font]
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Item1[/size][/font]
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Prob1[/size][/font]
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Item2[/size][/font]
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Prob2[/size][/font]
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Item3[/size][/font]
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Item5[/size][/font]
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Item9[/size][/font]
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]3[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]r06[/size][/font]
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]2[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Runes 2[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]20[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
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    </TD></TR><TR><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Runes 4[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]1[/size][/font]
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]r07[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]3[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]r08[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]2[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Runes 3[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]30[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
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    </TD></TR><TR><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Runes 5[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]1[/size][/font]
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]r09[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]3[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]r10[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]2[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Runes 4[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]50[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
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    </TD></TR><TR><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Runes 6[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]1[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]r11[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]3[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]r12[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]2[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Runes 5[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]90[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
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    </TD></TR><TR><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Runes 7[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]1[/size][/font]
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]r13[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]3[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]r14[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]2[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Runes 6[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]180[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
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    </TD></TR><TR><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Runes 8[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]1[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]r15[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]3[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]r16[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]2[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Runes 7[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]360[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
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    </TD></TR><TR><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Runes 9[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]1[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]r17[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]3[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]r18[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]2[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Runes 8[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]720[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
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    </TD></TR><TR><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Runes 10[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]1[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]r19[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]3[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]r20[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]2[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Runes 9[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]1440[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
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    </TD></TR><TR><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Runes 11[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]1[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]r21[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]3[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]r22[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]2[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Runes 10[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]2880[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
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    </TD></TR><TR><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Runes 12[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]1[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]r23[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]3[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]r24[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]2[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Runes 11[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]5040[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
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    </TD></TR><TR><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Runes 13[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]1[/size][/font]
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]r25[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]3[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]r26[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]2[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Runes 12[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]8820[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD></TR><TR><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Runes 14[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]1[/size][/font]
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]r27[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]3[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]r28[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]2[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Runes 13[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]15435[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD></TR><TR><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Potion 6[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]1[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
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    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]hp4[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]6[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]hp5[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]8[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]mp4[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]1[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]mp5[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]5[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]rvs[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]1[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]vps[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]2[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]yps[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]2[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]wms[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]1[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
    </TD></TR><TR><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][left]Act 5 Junk[/size][/font]
    [/left]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>[font=Arial][size=2][right]1[/size][/font]
    [/right]
    </TD><TD width="4%" height=16>
    
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    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    You can use this to walk some of the people through what is going on in some of the drop situations.
     
  4. Thrugg

    Thrugg IncGamers Member

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    Good idea Ruvanal.

    OK, look at the bottom line of that bit of code (you may have to scroll down).
    That is the Hell Countess' TC (unlike most other SUs, she doesn't upgrade because she has her own special TC).

    The first field "Picks" is -2. You'll notice that the other TCs above it have all positive numbers there. A negative number means she drops exactly that mnay times from the following Item fields - ie once from Countess Item (H) and once from Countess Rune (H). If that had been a positive 2 it would mean she would have 2 drops randomly chosen from either of the two (most TCs are this way).

    The other numbers (883, 883, 983, 1024) are her bonuses for unique, set, rare, magic drops. The 1024 magic means she always drops at least magic where possible.

    So, the first part of her drop is Countess Item (H) (in negative pick TCs, the drops happen in order left to right). We look up one line to that TC. That has 5 picks (positive 5) which means 5 drops randomly chosen from the following fields.

    Those fields are 19 NoDrop, 11 gold, 19 Act 1 (H) Equip C, 15 Act 2 (H) Junk and 3 Act 2 (H) Good. This last one is what I mean by a "Good" TC. Those numbers are a weighting. It means that in every 19+11+19+15+3=67 drops, you expect 19 NoDrops, 11 gold drops, etc... But it is random, because it is a positive Pick TC.

    Suppose you are lucky and one of her 5 picks hits the 3/67 chance of the Act 2 (H) Good TC. We look up a couple of lines to that TC and see that it has one pick (positive, so random) and the ratio of the drops will be 60 JewelryC to 4 chips, 10 flawed, 14 normal, 28 flawless and 14 Runes14. Those numbers add up to 130, so you have a 60/130 chance of the Jewelry TC, or 14/130 chance of Runes14.

    The Act 2 (H) Good TC is actually in a big group of similar TCs, one for each Act in each difficulty. The Normal ones are a bit different but in 1.10, the NM and Hell ones are all the same except for the Rune TC they drop from.

    Let's look at that Runes TC - Runes14. Again it is a single random drop. The weighting is 3 for r27 (Ohm), 2 for r28 (Lo) and 15435! to "drop down" to Runes13. That means you only have a 2/15440 chance of a Lo here, and almost always drop down to the next Runes TC. The next one has a slightly better chance at Gul and Vex, and a slightly smaller chance of dropping down to Runes12. And so on down the list, eventually you have to get a rune of some kind once you are here.

    I think that is enough information to get you started at TC delving if you like :)
    It is probably also a massive over-answer of sangfagel's original question, but I hope you can see the answer in there.
     
  5. sangfagel

    sangfagel IncGamers Member

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    Thank you all very much for your responces! Special thanks for Thrugg for your patience... and - no, it wasn´t over-answered :lol: but perfectly enough to to get me started at TC delving. I have understood a part of the problem but I have still some questions.

    I suppose that these numbers are individual for U-Monsters and different for different monster classes. I suppose that they affect only quality of drops and not base ilvl of drops or what kind of item would be dropped. Is it correct? How do these bonuses work?

    Does it mean that probability of runes drop from "items account" is:
    [1-(64/67)^5]*14/130 ?

    Does it mean that total probability of Lo is:

    [1-(64/67)^5]*14/130 *2/15440 ?

    How can I get access to partial TC listings? How can I learn more about T classes and items generation in general?

    Thank you once more :thanks:
     
  6. Thrugg

    Thrugg IncGamers Member

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    Every TC effectively has these numbers, although they are 0 by default. Monsters that are special enough tohave their own TC often have their own special numbers. There are groups of monsters that share a TC and therefore the same bonus (eg random Uniques, 800/800/800/1024).

    The bonus is applied when checking items that can have variable quality, to see what quality they are. Basically it improves the chance of being a certain quality by a factor of 1024/(1024 - bonus). So the Countess' 883 for uniques gives her around 7.2 times the chance of dropping a unique as a normal monster (normal monsters all have 0/0/0/0 by default). Baal has 983, which gives him about a 25 times better chance.

    This is applied after MF and has no diminishing returns or cap on it. It's a very strong factor. Of course, there's no way for a player to improve it :uhhuh:

    Because of the hierarchical structure of TCs, it is possible to pass through more than one TC which has bonuses. Ruvanal recently showed us that in that case you take the maximum bonus along the way. This turned out to be most interesting in the case of Pindleskin and Thresh - they were nerfed in 1.10 by being given a special TC which is exacty the same as the other SUnique TCs, except it had a lower bonus (512 for uniques instead of 800). But since they later drop through TCs called Uitem, which all Uniques and SUniques drop through, and those TCs have the usual 800 bonus, they get the same bonus anyway. So it seems they tried to nerf Pindle but didn't quite make it :)

    The only thing the bonus affects is item quality, like MF. It does not in any way change how many of an item will fall, just what colour it will be.

    Close but not quite. You do need to use the 1-p^n combination, but you shouldn't use that till the very end. It is actually
    [1-(1-(3/67 * 14/30))^5]

    This makes calculating her drops a little harder, because you don't have transitivity (eg total chance of Ist is not equal to (total chance of rune) * (chance of Ist given rune)). That is why for convenience we usually talk about expected numbers of Ists, because expectation is transitive - (expected number of Ists) = (expected number of runes) * (chance of Ist given rune). For really rare drops like an Ist, chance is very close to expectation anyway (they only differ by your chance of getting multiple Ists which is tiny).

    See above. You have to put all the other factors inside the inner bracket before taking the 5th power.

    Unfortunately one of dii.net's house rules is no linking to competitive sites. So I can't point you exactly where to go. However, a Google search on Phrozen Keep will get you started. In there you can find downloads of the extracted data files (and how to extract them yourself if you wish) as well as essays explaining how each file works.

    The TC file is called TreasureClassEx.txt - a search on that will probably find you more info. Make sure if you do download a file that it is for 1.10. The TC file gets fairly widespread changes between patches.
     
  7. sangfagel

    sangfagel IncGamers Member

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    It´s a great info - very helfull for my little searching. Thank you very much! :)
     

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