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PvP is boring - it needs teams

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Cwicseolfor, Jul 11, 2008.

  1. Cwicseolfor

    Cwicseolfor IncGamers Member

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    PvP is boring - it needs teams

    OK, so a lot of you won't agree with the thread title, and that's fine. It made you click the thread.

    The point is, while a lot of people enjoy Diablo 2 PvP, there's a lot who don't or find it lacking.

    Now, while I was reading some comic in another D3 speculation thread, it mentioned something about team PvP play. Now, I'm sure this idea has been thought of before, or even mentioned here before, but specifically I'd like to discuss the possibilitiy of system where multiple people can team up and go against other teams.

    I'll admit I'm thinking about DotA a little here, but Diablo 2 proved that PvP with classes is interesting and fun, and DotA proved team-based PvP with classes is fun, so why not incorprate that into Diablo 3 somewhat?

    I know I'd play it!
     
  2. DeadorK

    DeadorK IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP is boring - it needs teams

    Can't you already do that in D2? I haven't played in awhile, but can't different people be in different parties, and then they can go fight or something.
     
  3. 5zigen

    5zigen IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP is boring - it needs teams

    Team oriented pvp implies RPS balancing which implies waste of my time game.
     
  4. Bakerking31

    Bakerking31 IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP is boring - it needs teams

    back when 1.11 first came out on the first and second ladder the top pvp ppl would always meet up and play team duels, it usually ended up being a clan type duel, but they were very fun and to get into them you had to be a top dueler and be invited to the private games ... so there is team dueling in d2, alot of ppl just dont know about most of it

    although i just started playing again, so it may not be like this anymore
     
  5. Cwicseolfor

    Cwicseolfor IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP is boring - it needs teams

    Bakerking: Yeah, it's 'doable', but the thing is I believe you're dropped out of your party once you go hostile to someone (from memory). And unfortunately, many of the elements are lost because if you want to PvP with allies, you'll damage them indiscriminately. It'd be fun if Blizzard spent a little time (I'm not asking for a lot) on making some sort of team PvP option mainstream. :)

    5zigen: Fascinating. How about: PvP implies player verses player balancing at the expensive of PvM balancing which implies waste of my time game. No? Thought out input is generally preferable to witty one-liners when you're on a forum. ;)

    If we actually examine what little of a point you have, it's easy to see that if 1v1 PvP is balanced, then the only extra effort needed for team PvP is to simply enable it. Obviously more support is possible, but it's not requisite.
     
  6. Gamekk

    Gamekk IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP is boring - it needs teams

    It sounds indeed fun to add some kind of side quests or minigames in which you can PvP.

    However, the DotA style idea sounds a bit unreachable. I highly doubt they will intentionally mix PvM with PvP, people will find this rediculous. In War3, it was a good idea since you started at level 1, monsters made you level and you could add a bit of RP to it. But on a RPG game, you start at level 80 and you will most likely 1 shot mobs, which have the possibilty to drop health globes (mobs hunting while PvP... bad idea).

    Also, I thought you would bring up "arenas". I wouldn't see anything bad in addind WoW style arenas unless it gives you unfair advantage if you take part in them (also having the luck of finding a good team) such as the ones in WoW (getting OVERALL BEST GEAR). But I don't worry since Diablo will remain a loot game, in which you can't simply craft or earn (good) items. A ladder with arena however, i could totally see that. I'm pretty sure it's alot of other player's fantasy to see some sort of PvP ladder, in which you could be known as your realm's most badass mercyless killer =).
     
  7. phool

    phool IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP is boring - it needs teams

    I think I'd quite like to see a reduction in damage vs other players for every allied team member (2p=70%, 3p=50%, 4p=36%, 5p=25%, etc). I'd need to test it to know if that would be a really terrible idea but at a guess this would add a lot to TvT.

    TvT is really easy to do in D2 tbh, there's just not that much interest in it. Mostly due to the lack of prominent features that simplify the process, and the organisation involved. PvP altogether seems very much an afterthought in D2, it's testament to the gameplay that pvp's as rich and popular as it is. Look at titan quest. I hope to see some facilitation of pvp altogether, along with trading and whatever else... more emphasis on clans would particularly help tvt.

    Just because something's balanced does not mean balance will remain as player # scales up, though that's mostly only a critical issue when healing is involved.
     
  8. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP is boring - it needs teams

    No, just no. There isn't a single game in existence that follows your "easy to see" rule. Balance always becomes incredibly complicated when you simply start shoving in multipliers such as "triple the players on each side" in.
     
  9. 5zigen

    5zigen IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP is boring - it needs teams

    1 liners get read. thought out replies get tldr.

    PvP doesn't imply anything. In fact by the same argument then D2 has team PvP and this whole "want" isn't really justified. There's already plenty of incentive to do Group PvP, with group buffs like BO, Fanat, Convic, ETC.

    If you're going to ask specifically for group PvP to be more accommodated.
    Theres only 2 more things you can really want in terms of team pvp, and thats Team PvP matchmaking / ladders and team pvp balancing. And the former implies the inclusion of the latter.

    And I do think that PvP inclusion in terms of pvp matchmaking and ranked pvp and faux e-sports does degrade the PvM game, though hopefully it doesnt turn it into a waste of time for me like WoW.



     
  10. Cwicseolfor

    Cwicseolfor IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP is boring - it needs teams

    You've played every game in existence?

    I used to think that, but for all intents and purposes, I've come to believe the PvP game is fairly seperate from the PvM game. As long as PvP is always secondary; an 'afterthought' to PvM, it's inclusion can only be a boon.

    I'm not a huge proponent of team PvP (or PvP at all). But as far as including PvP goes, adding a team element to it would be a nice bolster to its sustainability and interest.

    Phool: Oh, quite. I don't mean to assert that Team PvP would be balanced; simply that as far as options go, all you can lose by its inclusion in a possibly unbalanced form is the opportunity to play Team PvP. But no doubt it would be patched later to be more balanced - when more important PvM issues have been solved.

    As far as people not enjoying or playing something that's unbalanced to begin with - a bit of a nonsensical argument since you need only look at any patch version of Diablo 1 or 2, LoD, heck take a gander at Counter Strike's myriad of patches and balances and rebalances. There's also DotA and Age of Empires 2 (I miss the Teutons). People certainly have fun by finding out the quirks of the system and exploiting them.

    Do I think Team PvP should be balanced eventually? Yes. Do I think team PvP should be included perfectly balanced or not at all? Certainly not. This applies as much to 1v1 PvP, too.

    And so, I my argument falls back to what Phool says: simply enable team PvP in a way that's obvious to the mainstream, and let the pieces sort themselves out. It won't interact with 1v1 PvP (as long as scaling or checks are used, or no team balancing at all is used) or PvM, so what's to lose?

    Tangent: Thinking about it, I think I can see how team PvP is technically possible in Diablo 2. I don't see how it's possible with team benefits like auras and healing, though?


     
  11. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP is boring - it needs teams

    If you want to go that route, neither have you to make your "easy to see" point. And my point stands above yours by observations made in any game that supports 1 vs. 1 as well as team fighting. There are abilities, units, weapons, designs, etc. that will always be inherently stronger or weaker in team fights as opposed to 1 on 1 fights because of their fundamental design.

    Team fighting, unless balanced for first, is all but guaranteed to have balance issues.
     
  12. 5zigen

    5zigen IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP is boring - it needs teams

    It's not very difficult. You party with someone, turn on your auras and both of you hostile the members on the other team.



     
  13. yelopen

    yelopen IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP is boring - it needs teams

    Um, if you think team PvP in D2 doesn't exist...then I don't know what to say lol. You just party with 3 other people and hostile another party with 4 people.

    Pallies use auras (i.e. Conviction)
    Druids use Oak
    Barbs use BO
    Necros use curses (i.e. Amp and Lower Res)
    Assassins stun
    etc. etc.

    Works just as well as any other team PvP system besides the fact that it can only be 4v4 at most.
     
  14. Q33

    Q33 IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP is boring - it needs teams

    Is this the problem here? If memory serves me, you dont drop out of a team when you hostile a non-party member. I think you'd only drop out of your team if you hostile someone in your own party.



     
  15. DarkGoat

    DarkGoat IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP is boring - it needs teams

    I'm sorry, but you've just made a fool of yourself. Team pvp exists in d2. Two teams can go hostile against each other.
     
  16. HappyAssassin

    HappyAssassin IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP is boring - it needs teams

    I can't believe this is even a thread. Team dueling was huge part of PvP in D2. I guess you guys missed it because it was pretty much the exclusive realm of organized, skilled groups of players. Almost all the team games were private affairs organized via forums or over chat on bnet.

    All the real clan dueling on D2 was done in teams, there were team tournaments, there was endless debate over the perfect teams in 4v4, 3v3 and 2v2 (by the way the perfect 4v4 was barb, druid, necro, trapper, for the record). People built teams around defending ranged characters like bow amazons, they had teams dedicated to physical damage, to elemental damage combined with -res. Certain combos of characters were extremely effective, and the best clans learned to rely teamwork pretty much exclusively in their duels. There weren't balance issues, there were several viable combos of characters. I'd confidently say that the best, most fun, involved and skillful dueling that happened on 1.10+ D2 happened in the team dueling sessions. I'm sure that'll come back in D3, the good players ultimately realize there's more challenge to be had in teams than anywhere else.
     
  17. Dimmu

    Dimmu IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP is boring - it needs teams

    Yeah this is what i thought when i saw this topic. When i played and dueled frequently i could always /f l and find a passworded game full of people where we would just set up random parties and have 4v4s. And it is a lot of fun.

    I don't think the lack of team pvp lies in any kind of clear game mechanics. It's more that the game, by nature, is very greedy and self-centered, whether for better or worse. It basically revolves around being self-sufficiant unless you have a good group of friends with common interests (easier said than done). The d2 pvp community has it's share of asshole Bmers and $*** talkers, but there are generally groups of friends who duel amongst eachother on a regular basis. In many cases people even often share accounts, but it's not uncommon for them to get robbed.LoL.

    IMO there's nothing wrong with the current system at all, it's just a matter of being a good dueler and finding the right people to talk to. Otherwise, why would they waste their time dueling people that are just going to get crushed every time, and often ruin a good team duel.


     
  18. teh_Thrasher

    teh_Thrasher IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP is boring - it needs teams

    team pvp in diablo? uh have u ever dueled in diablo 2? it takes like >5seconds. what kind of fun would that be to have even more players fighting... this is not guildwars or WoW or any other MMO. its an action rpg ;)

    to be honest d2 pvp was never really fun cause it was just full of losers that d2jspd their gear or were using hacks. not to mention the str glitchers who bought their ani/torch and built around that.

    -- now heres an idea. u know in Halo3 how they had that metagame business? well how about a Ladder in D3 for that... get a team of friends choose a difficulty and play through it as fast as u can, collecting as much loot and killing as many beasties as u can as FAST as u can... which is then translated into a score.
    that could be pretty interesting. =]
     

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