Latest Diablo 3 News
DiabloWiki Updates
Support the site! Become a Diablo: IncGamers PAL - Remove ads and more!

PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by DonkeyHunter, Jul 12, 2009.

  1. Matt

    Matt IncGamers Site Pal

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    4,163
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    467
    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    As a long time legit HC dueler and PKer, I'll agree with a lot of the sentiment I've read here, that there's a certain thrill to hardcore dueling that just doesn't exist with softcore dueling/pking. Sure, it might be a bit more of a challenge to find someone to fight, or to find a game where not everyone runs to town as soon as you hostile, but if you're suggesting it's impossible to get duels/pk people who realize their character's life is on the line, you obviously have never tried it.

    The way I see it, many folks seem to be saying that they like PvP as it is in softcore, where you don't lose it all when you lose the duel, and thats fine, such a mode just happens to exist for you, softcore. Hardcore dueling may not be your favorite thing, but there are and always have been a bunch of people who get a big kick out of it. Personally, I only really play D2 for the hardcore dueling/PKing. I would love if there were no cheats around, but honestly, I don't lose any sleep over it, its actually far more satisfying to kill some script kiddie who thinks he's invincible, and you have to get craftier to do it.

    Your lack of appreciation for HC dueling doesn't mean nobody likes it, and sorry, but I for one am 100% opposed to changing the fundamentals of hardcore because you don't want to die in a particular way. I hate when I get a nasty lag spike and my MFers get fried by souls or something, but I'd be just as opposed to a "that was a lag death, reset my character please", or a "I really meant to click the other way, not right into those fanat death lords, reset please" button. Hardcore is hardcore, and with all due respect, if you don't like it, tough luck.

    That said, I haven't really been keeping up with the D3 news too much, but from the little bits I have read, the PvP system seems like it'll be quite a bit different. If that's the case, I for one probably won't be playing it.

    -Matt
     
  2. Kiroptus

    Kiroptus IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,493
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    ^Well I guess you wont be playing then. PK is competely out of the game. That itself already changed the fundamentals of HC PVP.
     
  3. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    4,505
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    466
    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    Contradiction?
    Winning duels = nothing, but your so-called "work" isn't? You can't have it both ways.

    You've used that "lost work" argument in just about every single one of your posts but what you don't get is that it isn't lost work when an HC character dies. If you think that it is work to build a character you should probably just skip straight to the item stores because it's MUCH more efficient to work at your job and buy everything in game with real money than it is to work in game and gear a character via trade/mf.

    Of course at that point you're not playing ~95% of the game so why you'd bother buying it in the first place is beyond me, but to each their own I suppose. Just know that most people who play D2 don't consider it "work" while they do it.



     
  4. 5zigen

    5zigen IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2003
    Messages:
    1,346
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    I think technically any time you invest in a character is something. It goes all the way back to the john locke and the labor theorey of property. I think your hair splitting the idea that play and work are entirely separate things, when work is actually more accurately defined as time spent/invested in an object. In this case, it would be a HC character, regardless of whether he enjoyed this type of work or not.

    And winning dues could be nothing, in comparison, because winning duels has no objective value, while leveling your character and finding items does. When you find items and level a character up, the value of the character goes up (particularly market value). On the other hand, unless there is an extensive pvp reward system in the game, then winning duels does not increase the value of the character, and thus, it is risking all of your work, for nothing. I think that's a very accurate characterization actually.

    Some people may derive a lot of value out of "ears" while others simply do not care. That being subjective value, is not proper to analyze the work put into a character in a more general sense, unless we're operating on the assumption that ears are valuable.



     
  5. Typoko

    Typoko IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2009
    Messages:
    175
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    26
    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    Hi!

    "Lost work" of HC characters is something, but i don't consider playing games as work. It's fun for me. Also you most likely have gained skill to play the game better. This way next time leveling and dueling wille be easyer, faster and you can explore something different than last time leveling.
     
  6. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    4,505
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    466
    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    There is no "investment" in a character though. You play the game and have fun while doing it. Period. As mentioned, if you look at it as some sort of investment where you're putting time into it to get something out later (eg building a dueler is the investment, dueling is the payoff) then you're better off just straight out buying your character as you'll get the payoff with much less investment. At this point why did you even bother?


    I'm aware that for whatever reason there are people who look at it as an investment with a payoff, and it's not really my intent to say that they're doing it wrong, but Kiroptus has repeatedly referred to HC duelers as stupid for risking something for no reward as if they even had something significant to risk in the first place. I'm just pointing out that there's plenty of people out there who would disagree with that notion.

    I mean really, other than epeen (to paraphrase him), what do we gain from risking our characters to play HC in the first place?



     
  7. Kiroptus

    Kiroptus IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,493
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    No, there arent a lot of people. HC is a survival mode, the crushing majority of the HC players DO NOT bring their character into a very risk duel. Understand that you guys are a very small fraction of the HC community.


    The only time they might agree is to try to punish a PKer who started the hostility and then they stay tower hugging or spamming arrows/blizzard/traps/bonespirits/hammers at a stair entrance point to insta kill a character once it gets down the stairs which is nothing honorable or "hardcore-leet" as you put it.

    You make it sound like HC duel is something beautiful and extremelly leet because two brave players agree to duel even tho they have one life only. Its not, a HC duel is something very sad and monotonous to watch.

    Again, please dont speak like you are speaking for the majority, you know that most HC players do not duel, they preserve their characters because thats the point of HC mode, you are making it sound like HC duels are an integral part of HC mode, like a rite of passage that the characters go through... Most HC players avoid the hostility system like the plague (most even playing solo and avoiding pubs) and you know it. Now that its gone you might as well remove HC PVP if you are going to put a feature that catters to 0.1 % of the community.

    Or it could be a feature to exploit noob players, like the old "Allow this player to loot from your corpse" system which all bnet kiddies tried to fool other players into pressing it and dueling with you. The same would apply to D3 HC duels, "hey lets duel, dont worry you just get to 1 hp" boom perm death. Thats pretty much the only use I can see for it.
     
  8. 5zigen

    5zigen IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2003
    Messages:
    1,346
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    The point I was making is that it IS an investment. You are spending your time improving your character. It doesn't matter if you're enjoying it or not, or if there are more "efficient" ways to get that same character. You have spent your labor playing a game.

    Let's take any hobbyist for example, say someone who builds models. They likely enjoy building models, for them, it is fun. Yet, it is still an investment of time to make one. With the supposition that it doesn't matter if someone was to stomp and destroy one of their models, because they haven't invested anything in it (hey, they were having FUN making it! You're just giving them the opportunity to have more FUN!) is ridiculous.

    It would be much easier for a model builder to go out and work, and then just buy completed models, but that's probably not why he builds models. He builds them because he enjoys building them, not unlike most diablo players enjoy building their characters.

    The same is true with HC dueling. Some people play the game for different reason than others. And while it isn't per se stupid for an HC dueler to duel because everyone puts some subjective value on winning (epeen) for many people the act of winning, while exciting, has zero marginal value. I understand this because I feel the same way.

    From a completely rational viewpoint, it is very irrational for HC duelers to risk their characters in duels. Look at it like a wager, you are betting your character that you will win, and if you win you get nothing other than bragging rights. Would you ever see a gambler bet 100 dollars on something where the most he could lose is 100 dollars and the most he could walk out with is 100 dollars? No. Because it isn't rational. So, on some level, he is right. It IS stupid for HC duelers to do so. On another hand, some people put a large value one the epeen, which is ultimately the subjective value I was talking about before. That means that in their mind, it is rational.

    However, I am willing to bet that most people who play Diablo HC don't care too much for PvP particularly with their "primary" character, because the risk is too great and the reward too sparse. Sure, some people will be happy to make LLD characters, they are easy to outfit and quick to level. I cant think of any time I've seen serious level 80+ duels happening in HC other than random pub games which tend to just be fronts for townkilling or other such nonsense.

    And aside from that, it's likely that the "stupidity/irrationality argument" is actually an intellectual retort to the "wussy/carebear argument" that was evidenced early in the thread.



     
  9. Kerazul

    Kerazul IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2006
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    Alright.. let's forget all the 'carebear' arguments for a second and think about realism. Is a pvm enemy likely to permanently kill you without question? yes. Is it possible for a player character (strictly from a in character sense) to have reason to not finish someone off? Yes.

    Perm death ALL THE TIME in HC PVP makes no sense at all.
     
  10. Matt

    Matt IncGamers Site Pal

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    4,163
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    467
    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    I don't play Diablo because I find it realistic, there's nothing realistic about casting spells to kill monsters, and all that jazz. The system needs to be what's practical in terms of making gameplay fair and fun. That said, I think there's an argument to be made for a system like the one you've described.

    The debate seems to me to boil down to people wanting a softcore dueling mode with their hardcore characters. As I said before, this seems kind of weird to me. For one thing, I'd feel as though I was cheating the system if I played my HC character all the way up into the 80's without dying, then went a dueled with him for an hour, died 6 times, and then carried on PvMing with him as though the "hardcore" character hadn't yet died. I think it's pretty cool playing high level hardcore characters, because you know you haven't ever died, and you know everyone else you're playing with hasn't either. Kind of cheapens the whole idea of hardcore in my mind to allow certain kinds of deaths, and just not count them.

    The idea of bending the rules of hardcore as we all know them, and have known them as long as D2 has been around doesn't appeal to me in the least. If folks are so set on having hardcore PvMers and softcore duelers, then by all means, do it. Hardcore items tend to have much more value than softcore ones, because the system "eats" items back up, in softcore, with little exception, if its found, its there for good. That puts you at a big advantage when trading to make softcore duelers. Go to the evil forum, spend your funny gold you earn hardcore MFing, and make yourself an immortal dueler where it belongs; softcore.

    -Matt



     
  11. Kerazul

    Kerazul IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2006
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    Adding the feature to not kill your opponent isn't taking anything away from anyone. It allows people who are just having a friendly duel to not die, yet doesn't prevent anyone from cheating death.
     
  12. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    4,505
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    466
    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    With that argument, simply existing is labour and any action is an investment. If you really want to take that hard a stance on the definitions of investment and labour then feel free to, but then I'd probably end up taking the stance that outside of a priori truth nothing exists objectively, and I'd only be giving up that a priori truth exists objectively because I can't come up with a sound argument that it shouldn't and in the mean time it exists objectively by an a priori truth.

    Metaphysics would likely get us nowhere though, so I'm going to stick to the common usage of words and maintain that intentions dictate whether or not something is an investment, and that work and play are two distinct ways to use time.

    For starters any reason I can think of that a D2 character might be a desirable end on its own can be applied to a model. The converse is not true... for example I can put my model on display in a virtualized form but I can't put my D2 character on display in a substantiated form.

    But that may be a little picky and I actually kind of like your analogy, just not the conclusion.

    Lego.
    Robot wars.
    There's plenty of clips on youtube of people destroying something they built, and I'm sure I could go on if I really thought about it.

    Guess that those guys all have entirely ridiculous concepts of an entirely subjective emotion. There's probably people out there who like to build duelers for the sake of having a dueler and want to see it live forever, but I think it's much more sane to build a dueler, or any HC character, knowing that it will eventually die. The point that I decide my character isn't going to eventually die on its own is the point that I get bored and make it die.

    Further, your argument kind of touches on PK rather than dueling as the duelist picks when his character is ready to have his character possibly be smashed while your model builder didn't, but that's mostly OK. The thing is though, the PK forces me to replay the game when I'm not ready to; when the game gets (too) repetitive it gets boring. Losing a duel lets me replay the game at a time when I will find it fun. Typically I consider playing a fully geared and leveled character to be at least as boring and repetitive as starting anew at level 1. Dismissing dueling until I die means that I get to start over again when I'm ready, which is still fun, only now I don't get the choice to try to kill other people before said restart. It's not always a choice I make, but giving players choice is usually a good thing.

    (Keep in mind, at the moment I'm just arguing against the notion that current HC dueling is stupid in some way beyond the stupidity that is playing D2 in general; I'm aware the thread isn't suggesting that the choice be taken away, and if you read my very first post in this thread you'll see that I agree that there are circumstances where another choice should be given. In D2 the other choice is given both by open b.net and by how easy it is for somebody to avoid being killed in a duel if they're prepared.)

    So no, I don't think there is anything at all stupid, on even a strictly rational level, about risking something that has no value, and I think that D2 characters have very little value. I'll warn you right now that if you bring up their ebay value you'll get another long post in response that would be forced to go into the subjectivity of the value of money, but the short version is that I don't consider the cash return to be worth the baggage that accompanies selling them.

    I've seen plenty of gamblers give very large tips with no return other than maybe a smile from a dealer. The only reason this situation is so unlikely is that if the goal was a frown from the loser of the bet the gambler can typically still accomplish this *and* earn a cash reward at the same time. This would kind of be like dueling vs loot dueling in D2; loot duels DO give a reward but getting your opponent to go along with it isn't as easy as it is in the case of a bet.

    As an aside; from a money making standpoint most gambling isn't rational in the first place, so giving credit to most gamblers for being rational in their decision making seems like a bit of a stretch. I always giggle when I'm at a blackjack table and somebody gets mad at somebody else for not being a good anchor... if they care about the odds that much they should just leave the table ~_~

    Just out of curiosity, how many times have you sought out a high level duel? I'm sure that likely has something to do with how many times you've seen them. And I don't mean for the sake of watching either; they're *much* easier to find when you're hunting them as a participant, I mean even if you seek them as an observer and find two willing participants there's no reason said participants want some random guy there to watch them.

    I'm not saying they're easy to find, but I think you and Kiroptus are misrepresenting the level of difficulty. I also think he is misrepresenting the reasons they are so hard to find... hacks, serious balance issues, and a currently much smaller player pool than D3 should have have made finding duels more difficult than it should be in D3. But that's not all there is to it... those issues have created a cycle; at this point it's too hard to find duels so duelers get bored and quit so it gets harder to find duels... that cycle is not likely to get the kick start it needs in D3, at least not for a number of years.

    So yeah, I might not speak for the majority, but I'm hardly a lone nut either. The current D2 HC dueling scene is not representative of what the D3 HC dueling scene would look like if an alternative to death is not given.



     
  13. zGuJ

    zGuJ IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2007
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    26
    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    I wish I would have kept tabs on the site more then I do, as I do not have the time to sift through 6 pages, but I read the last post. I'll throw my personal opinion into the mix. That dueling in hardcore is a choice you're either ready to die or your not. That is the rush of hardcore. That is what makes hardcore what it is, When you duel on hardcore you can lose everything or you can make the opposing player lose everything. It's a rush that becomes addictive and if you're not willing to risk it all then you should stay on softcore. Point is if you don't lose everything and just gold, exp , or some items. It will defeat the purpose of hardcore, and the rush and the emotional zing that makes it addictive. IMO.
     
  14. Kiroptus

    Kiroptus IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,493
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    Yeah, I am sure that every HC player will want to press an agree button to lose permamently their character. Because thats how hostility in D3 is now.

    You are all stucked in the mindset that every HC player is "hardcore". Dont take the word "hardcore" into the heights of thinking that every HC mode player is willing to risk their character over a duel to win nothing because all the HC community is "hardcore-leet". HC mode is nothing more than a survival mode, in survival it means to not die, hence why I must repeat, every HC player avoided the hostility system, only PKers would pray on the weak on a fight they could not lose just to make the other players lose their characters. Thats how the HC PVP was, now you people should open your eyes to the changes made in D3. D3 is now better designed (that means powerlvling with cowlvls/baal runs/ubers exploit wont be as blatant as in D2) so the characters take more time to grow, more balanced and PK is out of it. With that in mind you cant seriously believe that its plausible to leave an option like an Agree button to lose your character in a SURVIVAL MODE.

    I will play HC and SC, but if any jerk wants to duel with my HC character I will just gladly refuse and he wont be able to do a thing to me and most of the HC players will refuse those requests as well.

    Time has changed, Diablo has changed and the PVP system has changed. Its time to understand what worked in a different game now has no sense in this new game.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2009
  15. zGuJ

    zGuJ IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2007
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    26
    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    By no means am I speaking for the whole community. I personally played diablo 2 to duel. Those were just my opinions. I would rather someone accept my duel then to just hostile and kill him. If he/she accepts they go in knowing they may die I can respect that.
     
  16. Matt

    Matt IncGamers Site Pal

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    4,163
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    467
    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    If you're so set on surviving, then don't play hardcore in the first place. The rush of playing hardcore over softcore, whether it's PvM or PvP is the fact that you're playing with a mortal character. You mess up, it's dead. It adds stakes to the game that don't exist in softcore. If you don't like that, then you don't have to play hardcore. If your goal was truly to avoid death at all costs, why in the world are you playing hardcore at all? As Mouse_Wiz said, it gets boring pretty quick playing characters that you know can't/won't die. He mentioned that when that becomes the case, he takes more risks, and puts his characters in a position where they are actually at risk of dying, because it's more fun.
    I do the same, except that I do it with my duelers. Now, as I said before, I only play this game for hardcore dueling. I don't high level duel, not because I wouldn't want to lose high level characters, but because with the prevalence of bots and all that crap, I simply can't put together enough 'wealth' to put together a dueler to compete with 95% of the folks who do it. I can however, put together low/mid level duelers in a much more reasonable timeframe, and I do so often. In direct contradiction to what most of the 'softcore dueling in hardcore mode' folks seem to be claiming, I do actually put myself in positions where it's extremely likely I will die, because I think it's much more fun being the underdog in a high stakes (high stakes as D2 goes only of course) spot than to be a sure winner. The last 10 or so duelers I have lost have been, without exception, to much higher level characters, mostly other duelers.

    For example, the last one was a level 29 paladin, decked out to the teeth, that died dueling a level 61 LF/CS zon, before that was a level 21 zealot that died dueling a level 39 charger, and the one before that was a level 37 fury druid that died to a level 5x tele-necro. In between these deaths, I racked up a bunch of ears with each of them, mostly from characters similar to the ones that got them (level 7x with the druid, 40's with the zealot and into the 60's with the 29 paladin).

    Point is, putting yourself in risky spots where you are NOT a sure victor, and where you have a very high chance of dying is a ton of fun because it's a rush and a thrill. You simply cannot have that same experience with softcore dueling.

    I understand why you don't like hardcore dueling, and I respect it, but most of the hardcore players I've played with don't share you sentiments. Dying to cheats is one thing, but we're talking legit dueling here. Pretty much every argument against the dueling system as it is now is that you don't want to risk dying over a duel. Thats fine, but I'm still waiting for anything resembling a solid argument why you don't just go play softcore and duel there, because the system already exists.

    -Matt



     
  17. 5zigen

    5zigen IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2003
    Messages:
    1,346
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    Mouse, I'm not trying to get metaphysical. One of the primary justifications for property, dating back very long, has been labor. Labor as defined by effort put into something. There is no way that a d2 hc character does not constitute labor or property. You are spending time improving something, saying it's not labor just because you enjoy it is silly.

    Aside from that, you CAN put your character on display, even in d2, every time you are in a public game or in a channel your character is "on display" much like a model is. Some people derive value from this, just look at any major city in WoW and you will find people with high end gear just sitting around doing nothing. Effectively, they are displaying their characters.

    I know you can find videos of people smashing their models and such, because they put a subjective value on smashing it that is higher than that of building it and keeping it, either that or they're just sick of it and they want to make something else (with the case of legos). Also, they probably value the ability to videotape it and smash it. That said, it's not something EVERYONE enjoys.

    I'm not trying to say that no one ever should hc pvp, or that. I'm saying it's justifiable to call it irrational, and further it's beyond reasonable to take a stance that not participating in pvp with your hardcore characters due to the risk of losing them is a completely reasonable conclusion to come to.

    I think you spelled out something important too, when you noted that most people don't make a "dueler" and expect him to live forever. And I think that's a distinction that should be pointed out, in all rpg type games, the characters generally have variations whether they are meant for pvp or pve, and this is where you end up with duelers and pvmers (or carebears).

    I think the point is that even people like you will differentiate your characters, and designate some for pvp duty and some for no pvp duty, likely because you dont want to lose the other ones.

    Ultimately, one of the primary benefits of allowing pvp in D3 without having permanent death would be to allow people to participate in pvp without having to go through the trouble of making a designated dueler. Because in HC, even with a robust and accessible respec system, I am willing to bet most people will not be dueling with their "main" characters simply because of the risk of losing them. Without permanent death people would duel with their main characters, and I think that is something gained from having pvp without permanent death.

    Ultimately, it all comes back to the argument of accessibility v. eliteness. How much of a priority is making pvp accessible, versus making the HC experience loyal to the experience that if you ever go into pvp you will probably end up dying at some point.
     
  18. Intolerance

    Intolerance IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2003
    Messages:
    1,127
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    467
    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    Consensual HC PvP in the early days of D2 pretty much had to include Barbarians. No other class was really able to land any sort of a "one-hit-kill" like WW could and when Sorcs, GA Zons, etc. were involved in duels, people just ran away when they got weak. Necs (via IM) and Pallies (via Thorns) could possibly kill Barbs (or have the Barbs kill themselves), but the Barb was the key fixture in HC PvP. I played a bunch of Barbs back then and I was pretty much always willing to duel any class that hostiled me because I knew my limitations and what it would take to kill me. In this sense, non-Barb HC PvP has always been pretty much non-existent. And I'm fine with that.

    Softcore PvP was much different since nobody carried rejuvs or ran away instead of dying and every class could participate (to an extent). I've done some softcore dueling- I remember gearing up a softcore barb in the very early days of D2 with the help of some softcore friends (by early days, I'm talking September-November 2000, long before people really ironed out character builds). I built him with the Hardcore "life is everything" mentality- huge Str/Dex on gear (rares FTW, by the way) and a decent -40% exec (102 one-hand IIRC). He had HUGE life and was able to WW through IM and Thorns and survive. In free-for-all games, it's usually turn into 7 v 1 and I'd still clean house. I had loads of fun with that character (running around and killing whatever I could until I died, rinse, repeat) but it's not the sort of thing that has any place in Hardcore.

    I don't see why we need to change anything to encourage HC PvP. I hope that like D2, PvP in D3 is an afterthought that doesn't weigh into game balance. The HC/Softcore system works great as it is now and I guess you'll just never convince me that the D3 will be a better game by modifying the very definition of Hardcore.
     
  19. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    4,505
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    466
    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    Question: does there exist a game that can be played without labour being involved?

    If your answer is yes, then I'm simply going to point out that that's the exact way I play D2, and the fact that I happen to end up with a character in the process is entirely unrelated to my play. The amount of time used while playing is irrelevant, I am just doing it for fun after all. I think the standard definition of "labour" would allow for, say, checkers to be played without having labour involved, but I can see where you might disagree.

    If your answer is that there does not exist a game that can be played without labour then I will argue that there does not exist an action that can be done without it being labour. For instance when I go to sleep I am using my time to improve the health of my body, and if property exists at all surely my own body is part of my body. But at this point you might as well just say that the definition of labour is how you are using your time. Since the concept of playtime exists then playtime is just a subset of labour time, so yeah, I'm still just spending my time playing D2. I might be labouring but I already admit that when I say "spending my time". This makes "labour" seem like a silly word to keep around and I'm not going to labour any longer debating its meaning. You can feel free to continue, but know that the lack of response is not me giving up, just getting bored.

    -----

    Next: Blizzard owns D2 characters, not you.

    Not only is my D2 character not the intended end of my D2 playtime, but it turns out that my D2 character can't accurately be referred to as mine.

    But whatever, if nobody's looking I could still sell it for profit. But as mentioned in my previous post I would never consider any monetary value any D2 character could ever bring in to be worth the moral and fun value I'd be giving up in selling it.

    -----

    And that's the last point I'm going to bring up: value is always subjective.

    Despite my character actually being Blizzard's, I still get to use it for my own entertainment. So yes, it does have a certain value to me... it entertains me to use it as I see fit. But this is the only value I see in it.

    So yes, as you've accurately noted, if I decide that it will be fun to use it to duel it is a rational decision to use it to duel. If on the other hand I decide it will be fun to keep it alive as long as possible it is a rational decision to not duel with it.

    Where I consider you to be very inaccurate is where you start trying to label the fun of dueling as subjectively valuable but the fun of keeping it alive as objectively valuable. In either case the character only has value to me in the fun it gives me.

    Hell, even if I *could* sell the character for money, what would I turn around and do with said money other than use it on something to have fun? Well I might decide to use it to survive, but I tend to only bother with that because I think it might end up being difficult to have fun after I die.

    So yeah, it's only EVER irrational to duel with an HC character if you think that there's more fun involved in not dueling. Don't get me wrong, I'm aware that that means that from some perspectives it is irrational to duel, but "from some perspectives" is hardly the universal statement you're trying to make it into.



    -----

    This isn't really a point, but I do need to correct one thing:
    The reason I build duelers isn't because I don't want to lose my PvM ones, it's that level 21 Zealots don't kill monsters very quickly and level 90 singers, even with the godliest of singing gear imaginable (refer to my giveaway thread from this time last season ~_~), don't make for anything but fodder in PvP.

    In general if I build a high level character that can be not-terrible in PvP and good in PvM, it'll end up PvPing eventually.
     
  20. 5zigen

    5zigen IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2003
    Messages:
    1,346
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    I've been resisting replying to this thread yet again, but I will say this: Any time you are spending time doing anything that has a "product" that is labor. It is an investment of time that is represented in the end product.

    It's not worth it to talk about other games, like say fps games or things like tetris, because the result is nothing that can be taken from you. I.E. Getting to the 3rd level in halo on your xbox is no different than on anyone elses xbox. Getting a high score in tetris doesn't leave you anything other than knowing you got that high score, and there is theoretically nothing stopping you from getting that high score again.

    Regardless of what the EULA SAYS, saying that we "don't own our characters" is hasty, and the only time a game company has tried to use that argument to disavail someone of their character, they lost the case and had to completely rewrite the EULA (though in SL there was much more... opportunity for creativity and IP creation in the game.) The case was Bragg v. Linden Research.

    It's an interesting topic, because what is happening is the attempt to use extensive EULAS to prevent property rights from ever forming in something, but it's not clear whether that can even happen, as it's never been tested in a court. But, for all intents and purpose accounts, and characters, are the property of the player. The player has, at the very least, constructive possession of them, and they are fairly easily transferrable as can be seen on any auction website.

    The point I should really try to ring home is that just because you don't intend to sell the character doesn't mean it isn't labor that has gone into it's production. Just because you enjoyed producing it does not make it any less valuable. If you lose the character, you do lose your work.

    And regardless of how you value a character relative to the subjective value of dueling, characters do have an objective value, and that is very easily represented by the fact that people frequently sell in game assets. The value of dueling has to be subjective, because it is generally not an asset, that is, it is not transferrable.

    They may add something to make it displayaable, which would give dueling closer to an objective value, but, barring that it's just doing something because you like to do it. Perhaps it is inacurate to say it's irrational, but, given the nature of HC, it's very easy to see why it would be considered irrational. (as long as you view the point of HC as living, and not dying).

    And I think it gets glossed over too much, but you posted why you make multiple characters for pvp, and I think that is also something worth thinking about in the context of all of this. Does blizzard want people to be forced to make a new character every time they want to pvp? Is that one of the fundamental reasons for including respecs? If so, how does that ideal mesh with HC, where, you will again be forced to make a new character every time you wish to pvp?
     

Share This Page