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PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by DonkeyHunter, Jul 12, 2009.

  1. Kiroptus

    Kiroptus IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    ^Fine then HC PVP just doesnt exist now since its consensual. Maybe the "uber-leet-hardcore" and also crazy players will do a HC duel but D3 being focused on PVM Cooperative play no one will get the vibe to PVP and lose their character forever after so much cooperative play.

    Maybe one or two players who find themselves very hardcore because they agreed to lose their character forever, whoohoo!
     
  2. 5zigen

    5zigen IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    I admittedly did not read a large portion of this thread (largely because I couldn't stand the machismo being thrown around of people calling each other wusses and whatnot).

    In D3 though, blizzard seems to be implying that characters will have a LONG timeline / evolution. Partially it's speculative, but it's doubtful that characters will level as quickly as they did in d2, even without the glitching, rushing and uberleveling.

    The result of this means, that to get to where pvp will be ideally balanced at high levels, it will take a large investment of time. To balance this out, they will likely implement respecs (which have been somewhat concerned.)

    Yeah, partially this is speculation, but it is likely that they will go in this direction, because it allows a lot more latitude in terms of character development, which is very preferable for a pve sc game.

    But throwing your character into an arena in hc, knowing that one of the 2 people are going to die, potentially having nothing to do with each player's "skill" but more to do with the probability of the character build matchup. In d2 it makes sense, because characters are disposable. It takes between a few hours to a couple days of playing to get a character to level 90ish. Items are transferrable, etc.

    If we're expected to sink a lot of time into each character I think the prospect of straight up hc pvp will be negative.

    At the other end, The more accessible blizz makes pvp the more "carebear" they will be. It's yet to be shown how pvp will work in D3 and how the system will work in general, but making it more accessible will make it more "carebear" but I think the more "wusses" that can participate in pvp I think the more popular it will be.
     
  3. DonkeyHunter

    DonkeyHunter IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    Yeh seriously. To call people "not hardcore enough" is just lame. If you are satisfied with dueling once in a blue moon with a 50% chance of dying then you really don't like dueling that much. Anyone who really likes dueling wants to do it more often. Therefore, if you don't want to change the current permanent death system then you really dont enjoy dueling that much and your opinion doesn't count... And your Hitler (lol-webmaster reference on forum watch)...
     
  4. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    Well, I am a grammar nazi...


    Also, D2 dueling IS terrible. You're right, I don't like it that much, and it needs the extra thrill of death to be worthwhile.



     
  5. Kiroptus

    Kiroptus IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    Actually with that "extra thrill of a permament death" its just sealing the coffin on D3 hardcore PVP instead of making it attractive.

    The logic behind that statement should be obvious.
     
  6. Intolerance

    Intolerance IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    Where do we draw the line in the cheapening of what Hardcore mode is? There's another thread going about paying to revive dead HC characters and I'm not sure whether this thread or that thread appalls me more.

    If you want the luxury of Softcore PvP, then you need to play Softcore instead of trying to change the very definition of what Hardcore is.
     
  7. Kiroptus

    Kiroptus IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    Some people here arent seeing the big picture. Diablo 3 is another game, in D2 there was PK to give PVP permenament deaths a meaning as it was sort of a hunt. Now D3 is aimed at cooperation and even PVP must have an agreement of both players to start the duel.


    Just accept that Hardcore will now be a mode without PVP if perm death applies to HC duels. The option might be there but no one will use it. You people who believe that hardcore is an untouchable mode that must remain as it is for "uber-hardcore-leet" and because of that people will actually agree to lose forever their character in a stupid duel, then you are all are out of your minds. No one will risk their characters that they invested 50hours+ in a stupid fight, even if bets, antes and all those suggestions come to be implemented into the game. Even in Hardcore D2, if a hostily sound burst out in your speakers the most common reaction from the players would be to leave the game right away, now you are actually thinking that people will press an AGREE button to this?

    Just remember that all the PVP community will be in softcore if perm death in PVP is in. No one will bother with HC duels. And those who agree to duel in HC with perm death are just stupid, not "hardcore" as they so want to believe.
     
  8. 5zigen

    5zigen IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    there's so much we DON'T know about the game right now.

    For example, we don't know how long it will take to level to the endgame.

    We don't know if item retrieval from corpses will be possible.

    We don't know how likely death will be in PvM.

    We don't know how they will balance player damage versus player life.

    We don't know how frequent balance patches will be.

    We don't know exactly how much blizzard is going to put into the PvP experience (will there be rewards, beyond ears?).

    We don't know if PvP matchups will be decided by players or decided randomly.

    We don't know blizzards balancing philosophy for pvp (will it be RPS, or will it be more ad hoc?)


    It is likely that the game has fundamentally changed. If blizzard puts in some sort of pvp ladder (like arenas in WoW) then it will give a lot of HC players a feeling of alienation. Even the BEST players in WoW will eventually die, particularly if we're talking about random matchups, and even moreso when you're talking about random matchups.

    For a lot of people it will feel like to pvp they will need to play SC because part of PvP is playing against people who are better than you, that is one of the main ways to learn in any competitive venture. But essentially, if all pvp will end in 1 player dying, hc players wont have a real opportunity to pvp. People who like to pvp aren't going to be willing to level a new character every time they want to pvp or practice, which will turn a LOT of people to SC from HC.

    Or it will force them to split. We all know that it is ideal to play hc only, because twinking and finding items and trading is a primary way to gear characters. If your only pvp character is HC, you have to deal with trying to do HC for SC trades, or having some sort of SC item finder, which will leave a bad taste in many mouths (at least mine).

    Perhaps it would make the most sense to just take pvp out of the "normal" game altogether. Have it be split up by SC, HC and PVP. Just a thought.

    There is a chance it wont make any difference either, if blizzard runs with a system like what they have in WoW (or had, I should say) where a majority of your character can be geared entirely from pvp. Eliminating the necessity of PvE for pvpers. Then the people who like pvp wouldn't feel alienated by playing SC for their pvp and the HC could still have their machismo throwing their characters away every once in a while. Perhaps that could truly be a win win?
     
  9. DonkeyHunter

    DonkeyHunter IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    I agree with most of your post except for the part where you suggest that there could be completely separate realm type thing for PvP. I would want my HC char to be able to both PvM and PvP as the same character. When I create a character, I like to have a history behind it and not have it built for just a single purpose. But otherwise, great suggestions.
     
  10. 5zigen

    5zigen IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    I keep forgetting too, that the idea of hc characters killing each other pulls me out of the immersion of the game, even as weak as the immersion is. It just doesn't make sense in the overall scheme of things for me, to have 2 heros, who presumably have the goal of killing the prime evils (or prime angels?) for the ultimate purpose of saving humanity and or sanctuary, Yet they would take the time out to not only fight each other (that sort of makes sense in terms of sparring) but to straight up kill each other... It just doesn't make sense to me from a lore pov, for whatever that's worth.

    I know a lot of people feel the same way.



     
  11. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    It beats SC with apparent cloning of the dead hero who is the only one who is allowed to pick up the items on his dead body...

    Also there isn't really a lot of back story to your hero provided. My guy doesn't need to be a hero out to save humanity, he could just be wandering around picking fights with animals, demons, and heroes alike. The whole saving the world thing just happens to be the byproduct of my 3.4*10^8 - 0 - 2 record. Or any one of a countless number of other possible back stories.

    It's funny that you use immersion as an argument against dueling to the death because I'm pretty sure Blizzard used RP as one of their arguments in favour of fun things like PK ~_~

    ---

    I'm also going to note that anyone who wants to duel in D2 without character loss has open b.net as an option. There's absolutely no reason at all to not take your dueling there. And yet despite being suggested fairly regularly nobody does it. Probably has something to do with D2's PvP being a complete joke which nobody actually enjoys for very long as purely a test of skill. Anybody arguing in favour of immortality in duels from the perspective of D2 is welcome to share with me their reasons for not playing open...

    And don't tell me that you need a back story for your character; for starters the ready-made characters work perfectly well in games with solid PvP (eg GW&WoW on the tourney realms). Secondly there's nothing preventing you from making an exact duplicate of your HC character to duel with, and if knowing it's a copy kills the immersion for you that's a problem with your head. Besides, dueling to the 1hp doesn't kill immersion? Really? You don't know how much HP your opponent has but you know how to ensure your winning blow leaves them on 1 hp?



     
  12. 5zigen

    5zigen IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    I don't think dueling to 1hp kills immersion because imo that is like imagining that players are "aware" of their or the opponents hp. I think that is just ridiculous, because as a practical matter, HP is just a representation games use to display character growth and threshold of life.

    I guess whether or not the character is a hero is debatable, but I think in accordance with the fact that there is no "path" in game for anything OTHER than saving the world, the idea that you aren't playing a hero just seems kind of strange.

    as far as open bnet goes for pvp, I think the problem is that it would require convincing a group of people to go to open bnet for pvp, as publicly pvping on open bnet will probably just get you endlessly greifed by someone with +100 skills.

    For me the whole argument is academic as well, because I think rpg pvp is stupid and generally incredibly poorly balanced.
     
  13. windforce

    windforce IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    If anything I think most of you are unintentionally proving why the hostile button needs to stay in HC.

    "nobody wants to risk losing their character, therefore HC dueling must be the same as SC dueling."

    ....

    Hello! If people are not willing to voluntarely risk their characters in a HC duel (which, by the way is not true... HC dueling was huge back in the good ol' days), that means that without nonconsensual dueling, pvp on hc would be completely non-existant (pk is a form of pvp, and a damn fun one). Yes, by removing permanent death from HC duels, blizzard would be removing whatever hc pvp still remains in the age of no-hostility and phony, jammed-down-your-throat "cooperation" (that term is completely meaningless in the context of diablo and we all know it)

    We need the hostile button back in D3, or there will be no pvp in HC because people dont take risks they can avoid (unless they are of the old breed, who used to duel in d2hc before the hacks took over the game). Removing permanent death in HC PVP is completely contradictory to HC, and if that's the only way to keep HC pvp alive in D3, it's just proof that blizzard is making a HUGE mistake in removing the hostile button. Diablo HC is a very different game from anything else. If pvp is not somewhat imposed, people will not get the full experience and challenge of the game.

    As for pvp not making any sense from the lore perspective... that's completely irrelevant, and it's not even true... diablo characters have attitude, and seem like the exact type to stomp you if you looked at them funny. The diablo games are defined by their tone, which is that of chaos. Max Schaefer even said that diablo 1+2 were designed so that players can choose to be villains, and that monsters are no the only obstacles in the game.

    So... removing permanent death in hc pvp? HELL NO!
    Bring back hostility? **** YEAH!
     
  14. Kiroptus

    Kiroptus IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    The Hostility system wont return. Its dead, give up on it, its part of their design decisions, the game is now much more based around PVE cooperation and because of that, PK has no more place on it, it never had actually, its an instanced game, if it was a MMO it would make sense but PK was only threatening when used in conjunction of exploits (TPPK, WPPPK) because legit PK was always laughable easy to avoid. The hostily system was a design decision that would fit an ARPG made 8 years ago but its never going to return in an modern ARPG. Just let it die.

    You have to see D3 as a game without the hostily system and because of that, HC will have to adapt to it and face it, no one is going to press an AGREE button to have a big chance of losing their character. Never. With that in mind, with perm death in HC PVP in D3, it just means that HC doesnt have PVP. Period.

    And no, PVP HC was never popular. PK yes, but consesual? I have yet to see two high level HC characters chatting

    "Im bored, lets duel and lose our characters that we played over 100+ hours"

    "Sure! meet me at blood moor."


    Dont say its common because it ISNT. Its probably in the single digits of when it happened per server and whoever actually did that was quite stupid.
     
  15. Typoko

    Typoko IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    Hi!

    And that is where you got it all wrong. I would press AGREE button if i was on my HC character that i'm willing to lose on PvP match. Most likely this would mean that i already have higher level HC character to provide items for the new HC characters when they eventually die. Taught of losing your character makes you work for the win. IF you die from the death it makes every single duel count. You fight one duel and you can talk about it and cheer. In SC you just duel somone else or th same person. HC pvp also makes sure there aren't too many noobs running around.

    Hardcore mode should be for hardcore players. It's walking on the edge that gives some meaning for hardcore. If you can't die in a duel what is the hardcore in that? If you want softcore pvp then you play softcore, pretty easy. If you can say you are HC player, you should go to the end with it. It's no damn "I'm HARDCORE, MAN!" and when it comes to getting killed "lol don't kill me!" it means you aren't hardcore at all, just a sheep in wolves clothes.

    Tho i doubt it will make into the game, but the option for the winner to let the other one live would be great. This should be no option at the start, it should be decision made at the end of the duel. If he thinks you are worth of living he will let you do that. Problem with this is griefing. Rooms that are made for non deadly pvp would get griefed alot.


     
  16. windforce

    windforce IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    But my point is exactly that: People don't take risks that they don't have to. The hostile system made PK a required challenge in playing the ladder and public games (and yes, before tppk hacks came along, it was still very easy to avoid). Without the hostile button, HC pvp would be ****. It is to avoid this disaster that you guys are suggesting removing permanent death from HC PvP. In other words, according to people here the only way to "save" HC pvp is to remove it entirely by making it the same as SC pvp. Completely irrational if you ask me. I see no reason why PK doesn't fit in to modern ARPG's. The only reason that would be true is because people are only willing to play a WoW clone.

    No matter how much blizzard likes to deny it, they are completely changing what the diablo franchise is all about.


     
  17. Intolerance

    Intolerance IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    When did you start playing HC in D2? It's probably been 7+ years since my last HC duel, but I've been personally involved in no less than 100 consensual level 50+ HC duels, with probably 50% wins, 25% losses, and 25% other player quits before a kill. Consensual HC PVP was abundant before hacks and dupes made it completely imbalanced.

    There was a time when the HC channel was full of smack talkers and HC duels were extremely common, especially since most people would have looters.

    I never tried to grief anyone with the hostile button and I'm a firm supporter of it remaining in the game. Just give it a 10 second delay- that'll give everyone plenty of time to get their poop in a group and not be griefed.

    Just because you think HC PVP is stupid doesn't mean the rest of us do.



     
  18. Kiroptus

    Kiroptus IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    Diablo has always been a PVM game at its core. Blizzard themselves said it on the forums many times when people asked for some PVP balance (named the time of Amazons GA pierce), their answer was always: "diablo was balanced for PVM".

    Diablo so far has been a PVM game with lots of options to grief, namely stealing drops and PK. That was just badly designed, it was fine 8 years ago but again, nowdays a game that presents itself as a grief machine wont work now since online play is far more common and douchebaguery in online games has reach critical points so its necessary to take off all possible actions that grievers can do to an multiplayer enviroment otherwise you wont have a well-designed PVM game that Diablo 3 will aspire to be. So forget about Hostility, not even Bill Roper in HGL allowed PK to be in his game so its not "Blizzard selling out" or "Blizzard is now carebear" BS that has been spilled all over now. Time has passed, something as broken as a hostility system in a fully instanced game of 8 people (now it will be less players) was a completely asinine design decision.


    And granted D3 is more balanced and less exploitable then the cesspoll of exploits that was Diablo 2, rushing and powerlvling wont be as easy and because of that, characters will be more valuable, good that some few weirdos are agreeing to risk their characters, their 50+ hours of work on a stupid duel that no one will care but face the fact that a HUGE part of the HC community wont play on it.

    Get a tap on your back that you are so "hardcore" to lose your character on a duel and win nothing from it when the other SC players are enjoying a lots of nonstop duel when HC players just duel once and BOOM, over...

    And yes, HC PVP will always be stupid for me, and most of the HC community wont risk it. HC is mostly about playing safe and smart, going toe-to-toe with another player for no reward at all in a duel until death, is the completely opposite of that. Most of the HC players would leave the game as soon as the hostility was announced, I am really impressed that you people are defending that players will press an "Agree" button...
     
  19. Intolerance

    Intolerance IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    You simply don't "get" HC PvP. Winning nothing from a HC duel is the ultimate Softcore mentality because when you duel in Softcore there's absolutely nothing at stake. When you duel in HC, you understand the risks and the rewards, and believe me when I tell you that killing some cocky, smack-talking, arrogant bastard is more than enough reward for me that I'll risk my character all day long. And I can guarantee that I'm not alone.

    We'll obviously never see eye to eye on this issue. Your perception of HC PvP seems to come from the way HC PvP is today, which is drastically different from the way it was years ago before the game was compromised by cheats/hacks (and, to a lesser extent, horribly imbalanced items). HC PvP thrived in the early days of D2 and I can only hope that Blizz does it "right" in D3 so it can thrive again.



     
  20. Kiroptus

    Kiroptus IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    So everytime someone wants a duel they should risk their 50+ hours of play for it? Diablo is first of all, a game. It needs to fun, if everytime I want to taste a bit of PVP I have lose all my work over nothing ( it IS nothing, dont try to attribute some value for it because there is none other than e-peen extension) .

    And please, dont attribute too much value to consensual HC PVP in D2 because it was always a borefest to watch even in the early days, as its always lots of town hugging and cowardice as the most predominant aspects of those matches. To get better in PVP you need to die to learn from your mistakes, you will once and while, die. Its normal.

    Diablo is a PVM instanced game. This world of hunt, hostility, justice and vengeance never applied here because it was always a instanced game where people could simply leave the game or open a TP and go AFK in town. If you managed to convince a bad manner player into duel (you need to, because its now consensual) which I must say, good luck with that, it will never happen, then you have to kill him, now you killed him. So what? You managed to find a single and to me, stupid reason to include HC permament death into consensual HC PVP, a very unlikely one because you cant force a bad manner to fight you specially because those players are always cowards and would never play part on that.

    What about all the other HC players who want to taste PVP just for fun? They cant, they will have to go softcore because not even among friends people will want to risk their characters.

    Face it, consensual hostility killed HC PVP as you know, you would have a hard time to find someone who would want to take such a risk. At least hostility with HC perm death in D2 gave a reason for HC players to use it, it was mostly used by grievers who just made the MP enviroment a worse place but at least it had some use, now its consensual.

    If you think its so highly necessary, blizzard should include a option for perm death (which trust me, noone would use) but the default should be droping players to 1 hp once the duel is over.
     

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