PvP Fastcast WW/Kick/Stun Assassin Guide -- Final (part deux) der=

[sheepe2004]

Very nice guide, just a couple of points to make:

• When duelling defensive hammerdins with my barb i find the easiest way to kill most of them is to tele just underneath them into their 'blindspot' and use zerk to kill them, this would probably work even better with kicks. Do NOT namelock tele them though as this leaves you right where the hammers come out. When (if) they try to move into a place where they can hit you alot will run giving you easy hits.
  
• What the point in walking vs barbs when your block doesnt work anyway and you have tiny def vs their ar?

 

[Speederländer]

I wouldn't even think about trying to catch the best fast teleporters on 42% or 65%... even 102% would be a stretch. If they're gonna run, let them run. I thought that's what the MB-tele-name-lock thing was for anyway.

You have to be fast enough to get on their screen. You can't get name-lock for MB, tele/ww, or traps unless you can get close enough. My experience with 42 fcr vs. 65 fcr has left me very strongly behind the 65 mark. There's a line you pass over, that is hard to define just by arguing the numbers alone, where you see a big gain in results. I can appeal to the numbers to make my case, and I will later, but the numbers are not adequate. I've played a variety of cast breaks and 65 is optimal. I see no reason NOT to get 65 since your equipment gains in dropping to 42 are minimal.

 

[Speederländer]

Very nice guide, just a couple of points to make:

When duelling defensive hammerdins with my barb i find the easiest way to kill most of them is to tele just underneath them into their 'blindspot' and use zerk to kill them, this would probably work even better with kicks. Do NOT namelock tele them though as this leaves you right where the hammers come out. When (if) they try to move into a place where they can hit you alot will run giving you easy hits.

I considered mentioning it, but I just had limited success using it as an assassin. Here's my thought process on it:

If the pally is a charge/hammer, they will never be still enough to make use of the blind spot. They drop single random hammers all over the field and never present a stationary target. The only real solution for these guys is single tele/ww passes combined with stunning effects to slow them down.

If the pally is tele, as an assassin, I prefer to lock them down with traps and MB (much easier with teleporters) and do short ww passes perhaps with some kicking if they are lower defense. But my experience has been that going for any sweet spot more than often ends in placement being slightly off and major damage, or even accidental name-lock (VERY easy to get) and death.

Your point is good, but I think it works better for barbs, who are forced to use it due to lack of stun ability. Now, it may work just great for assassins. But since my experience with it is pretty limited, and since I've had good success without it, it's not in the guide. It's possible I may break down and reference it before the end though, as I know that it's very popular among the barb crowd and much of what works for barbs works for assassins.

What the point in walking vs barbs when your block doesnt work anyway and you have tiny def vs their ar?

Yeah, that's one of the things already on my edit list for taking out.

 

[Azmarath]

I've played a variety of cast breaks and 65 is optimal. I see no reason NOT to get 65 since your equipment gains in dropping to 42 are minimal.

Okay, I've been doing some testing with the different cast breaks, and I can really see your point about the 65% break, it is quite significant. But I still can't see how you get by with such a low AR, using no angelics.

My background in WW sins has always been using a Bramble build and I never really had a problem with casters except for the better Bone Necromancers, even working with only DF and running at a pathetic 30%frw, I was always able to sneak up and surprise them. You've convinced me that moving around with Tele is far superior and your guide appeals to me much more than any of the pure Ghost ones I've read, as none of them explain the reasoning behind it all like yours has. However, my biggest hurdle has always been (and I'm sure it would still be if using your build) high defense Paladins and Barbarians. It seems totally illogical to me that lowering my AR from over 10k to around 5k would increase my win ratio when I can barely hit them as it is, and I'm not too keen on the idea of running to my stash all the time to grab a Fool's claw, losing all that OW in the process.

 

[Speederländer]

Okay, I've been doing some testing with the different cast breaks, and I can really see your point about the 65% break, it is quite significant. But I still can't see how you get by with such a low AR, using no angelics.

My background in WW sins has always been using a Bramble build and I never really had a problem with casters except for the better Bone Necromancers, even working with only DF and running at a pathetic 30%frw, I was always able to sneak up and surprise them. You've convinced me that moving around with Tele is far superior and your guide appeals to me much more than any of the pure Ghost ones I've read, as none of them explain the reasoning behind it all like yours has. However, my biggest hurdle has always been (and I'm sure it would still be if using your build) high defense Paladins and Barbarians. It seems totally illogical to me that lowering my AR from over 10k to around 5k would increase my win ratio when I can barely hit them as it is, and I'm not too keen on the idea of running to my stash all the time to grab a Fool's claw, losing all that OW in the process.

90% of the time I can beat pallys with chaos/fury and 5K AR. Whirl away is the key. You basically auto-hit them. In any event, changing just your claw should not be a big deal. The fool's claw gets you to 12K+ AR. If the pally is packing 30K+ defense, your AR, whether 5K or 10K won't make all that much difference. You have to hit via whirl away or tele/ww passes which grant you whirl away as they are moving. And you can certainly put on angelic vs. melee. I mention that as back-up stash equipment in the guide. Try to get knockback on the fool's claw. I found that far better than even OW as it kept smiters off me almost totally. Just wear fools + angelics against the better pure melee pallys. Wear the same against barbs OR go fast cast and try to focus on MB and hit and run whirl aways. But you won't beat the good barbs anyway...

Against non-defense oriented builds (all but pallys and barbs) 5K AR is absolutely sufficient. I swear by this fact. I pulled my hair out for a year with different approaches to getting more AR. But the more I played the more it because obvious that you don't need it except in certain special situations. And those situations are where the fools claw or angelics come into play.

But the guide is flexible. You are free to use more AR than I do.

 

[Azmarath]

How much do 15/15 jewels go for anyway? I'm having some trouble getting ahold of them.

 

[Phyrexial]

I read through all of the guide minus the last half of the class specific strategies which I'll get to as soon as time permits, but doing a quick ctrl+f scan through your guide I saw no mention at all of Widowmaker use. Now, my experience with WW sins and high level kickers is extremely limited, and I know what works for barbs doesn't always work for kickers, but seeing barbs make some very effective use of Widowmaker against Hammerdins makes me think that it could help make certain duels easier for the sins also. Especially considering that most of a sin's damage comes from Venom which would carry over to the guided arrows.

I know you don't like switching gear much, but I figured it was worth mentioning.

Oh yeah, excellent guide. :thumbsup:

 

[amphrosyne]

widowmaker doesnt work that well vs good hammerdins
with charge desynch by the time you they see wep switch they're on you and probably prevent the barb from switching back to wep

widow is a good tactic vs pubs or mediocre hammers but vs good ones it isnt that great. besides wouldnt 2x lacerators work better? you wont need to wep switch for ww if the hammer suddenly jumps onto you while ur throwing axes. the amp is also great.

 

['22'Souljah]

How much do 15/15 jewels go for anyway? I'm having some trouble getting ahold of them.

if you're on west nonladder they're about 20 roons a piece hard as a b**** to find though

 

[Phyrexial]

widowmaker doesnt work that well vs good hammerdins
with charge desynch by the time you they see wep switch they're on you and probably prevent the barb from switching back to wep

widow is a good tactic vs pubs or mediocre hammers but vs good ones it isnt that great. besides wouldnt 2x lacerators work better? you wont need to wep switch for ww if the hammer suddenly jumps onto you while ur throwing axes. the amp is also great.

I would have thought it would scream "charge me!" also and I'm aware there is a delay between switching and being able to attack, but after watching some of mcm's dueling vids he seemed to make pretty decent use of it. Granted it was against a tele hammerdin, but any extra tools against a hammerdin I would imagine would be nice for a melee dueler.

As for the dual lacerators idea, it's a reasonable idea but it would require impeccable aim since throwing axes don't home. Trust me, my smiter throws those things from time to time and it's not easy. Also, throwing axes require AR to hit while guideds are itd I believe.

 

['22'Souljah]

while guideds are itd I believe.

this is probably kind of off topic but i noticed when i shoot people with guided arrow (pallies mostly) sometimes it just goes into him and disapears no damage and no blokc animation
that some kind of bug?

 

[morotsjos]

widowmaker doesnt work that well vs good hammerdins
with charge desynch by the time you they see wep switch they're on you and probably prevent the barb from switching back to wep

widow is a good tactic vs pubs or mediocre hammers but vs good ones it isnt that great. besides wouldnt 2x lacerators work better? you wont need to wep switch for ww if the hammer suddenly jumps onto you while ur throwing axes. the amp is also great.

Yes it works. Just switch fast, fire 1-2 arrows, then switch back. Doesn't have to take an eternity.

 

[ilkori]

[QUOTE='22'Souljah]this is probably kind of off topic but i noticed when i shoot people with guided arrow (pallies mostly) sometimes it just goes into him and disapears no damage and no blokc animation
that some kind of bug?[/QUOTE]
If I understand it right, that can happen when you shift+click, or when they block. No blocking animation (maybe because guided skips the hit-check?), but it is blockable.