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PvP Bowazon

Discussion in 'Classic' started by CBK, Oct 15, 2006.

  1. CBK

    CBK IncGamers Member

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    PvP Bowazon

    I am wanting to make a PvP dueling Bowazon. Why? In USEast the only good Bowazon I've ever seen is from a guy named Yok, from the Fafia and let me tell you it is damn nice. He has a +2 187ed +min -req gothic bow with a buged mod(which is that is has a Normal Attack speed with NO IAS and gothics are supose to have slow). So I wanted to make one, I will only be missing the bow but I intend her to be a mid level dueler so instead I'll use any unique bow that can be used till I found the sojs to buy a GG bow. For now I only know some of the gear:

    Twitch
    Howltusk
    deaths gloves
    deaths belt
    2X ar, +min +max +str +dex rings
    +2 Zon stats +min/max ammy

    Thanks, help appreciated.
     
  2. fledgeling

    fledgeling IncGamers Member

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    I think your amazon won't be good with an unique bow. The damage will be pathetic (unless you are going frozen/fire arrow).

    +2 amulet on a mid dueller? define a mid dueller please, for me it is something around level 35-45
     
  3. WarlockCC

    WarlockCC Diablo Classic Moderator

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    I'm guessing you will only fight melee chars with this zon ? Since you don't mention any kind of res. So how do you deal with a speedbarb ?

    Since you are saying mid, does that mean you won't leave normal ? Since that is where I would expect a midlevel dueler to be. For me a midlevel is 18 up to and including 29. From level 30 and up is normal dueling since you then have access to all the skills and all the uniques.
    I do notice you are not going to wear any items with Crushing Blow, meaning you will need an ungodly amount of arrows to damage even the lowest-BO'd barb.
    Indeed we are all hoping there is some secret way to make zons work in PvP (other then slapping on a wiz and going for cold), but personally, I'll have to see it to believe it.

    To get any kind of damage you would have to go all dex. I guess the Knockback from Howltusk will keep some people away, but most will be able to just run around your arrows. Meaning you get hit and with such low life, that would mean instant death.

    I wish you the best of luck in making this zon, but personally, I am sceptical about her potential.
    There are very nice bows out there, but even with that, I don't see it making a dent in a speedlancer. Let alone a Charger.
     
  4. Souther

    Souther IncGamers Member

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    I think i have dueled this person you are talking about (Yok). The Bowzon was in the lvl50s. The name sounds familiar i guess.

    Anyways, this guys was really good with a bow zon. He name locks and starts shoting away. With knock back and low fhr i could not stand a chance or maybe i just sucked.

    Thats when i brought in my CSzon in the game. I started chasing him around trying to CS him but that was useless. So i decided to hit with lighting fury and i killed him with one shot. I actually killed someone with lighting fury.
     
  5. goomba

    goomba IncGamers Member

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    my bowazon is built, glass cannon spec according to Fred's guide. using a 123 dmg +psn dmg gothic bow, otherwise gear is exactly as per fred's guide.

    currently lvl 62 or so. I was slowly doing a solo cs in nm when a lvl 6x baba discovered the game. I should also mention, I had a chant on me (and my lvl 1 valk) that added 1100 or so fire dmg. anyway, said baba discovered my cs efforts, hostiled me, and leapt in.

    I nearly killed him, but even with the knockback, it wasn't enough to keep him off me, he started his WW early, about the same time as I was in strafe lock on him, and managed to WW all the way through one strafe, and I was dead in one hit...

    *shrug* like most, I don't think you will find that a bowazon is viable pvp, even with a 'decent' bow.
     
  6. danbus

    danbus IncGamers Member

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    PvP Zon

    Hello everyone! Just adding my 2 cents--:rolleyes:

    My history - I haven't played D2Classic since high school (5 years ago). Back in the day Bowzons ruled the dueling arena IMO. I had a dupe zon and a legit zon. I owned with both due to items and skill. Seeing that leeching was possible for PvP, a 1v1 duel could take more than 5 mins (good times good times). It seems like I'm back again for the first time and I have seen that bowzons have been nerfed to dirt for PvP. I currently have been played for 4 days now (since my brother bought the game for me for my bday). I currently show my face on USEast Soft Ladder (*danbus). I only have a lvl 55 PvM Barb (lance - OMG it makes me cry that every 5 mins I have to run back to town to repair, it seems like I got prostate cancer and have to run to the bathroom everytime my weapon shows up in yellow).

    Back to the topic - from my knowledge of basic pvp bowzon building are they are item dependant 1st and skill 2nd. They must have a decent item setup to be effective. PvP bowzons MUST have the following items as a foundation Twitch and Death Gloves/Sash (T+DGS) for the obvious reasons. Back in the day - high dmg Goth/Rune bows meant a decent means of attack. Since we are speaking of ladder chars there won't be duped (at least I hope not) godly bows running around. Seeing that life leeching is removed from PvP (why did they remove mana leech? it's annoying to keep buying mana pots) a modern build would require High dmg, life, Res, and standard 30% Run. With a foundation setup like that, you should be able to handle any encounter save charge pally (back in the old days you could block lock a charger pally and with pierce kill without any trouble). A elite build would be T+DGS, some +9 min dmg, high life, high stat rings, 30 run high res boots, high life, high res, high stat helm, +2 ammy with high life, high res, high stats. The bow in question would be either goth or rune ideally with 180%+ED, 20% IAS (10% IAS needed only on rune) with -Reqs. Of course only the wealthy could afford such goods. This would allow decent dmg, high life to survive, Res should be around +40-50 in hell. You could go Vitazon or Dexazon with such a build. Now after seeing how things have changed, this build seems so obsolete plus only the wealthy good go such a route. After reading the forums a bit and noticing how PvP bowzons are futile, it seems that setup/build needs a new blueprint.

    Here is my blueprint - with the understanding that crushing blow is the new black for PvP - we shall make CB Bowzon. This build is cheap. Almost. T+DGS are required however. Most players should have these "collecting dust" on a mule. Now the main focus is rate of fire. My logic tells me that the more shots I can let loose, the more chances I have of gettting that crushing blow. On this menu, the weapon of choice would be either a 100%ED+ 20 IAS double bow OR The unique Rogue's Bow. My backup would be a P Emer bow (double or rune) which will be explained later. Of course you are shaking your head or "pssssssssh" your arse off and getting ready to :unimpressed: type out your input, but please wait until you read the rest. Damage is NOT a key factor of this build at all. Rate of fire IS. Helm would be Howltusk (I'm a old school Bowzon so I'm still used to NOT using this during PvP),and rings + ammy can be anything you feel will help in ANY encounter and of course G-Toes. Simple item setup. I still see you are shaking your head and ready to type. The stat build would be enough STR to use your selected items (that is WITH Twitch), base NERGY, you can make your own call on how much life YOU think you might need in ANY encounter, the REST in dex. Skills would be Max GA, 6/7/6, 50% pierce, 45-90 degree multi shot (forgot how much that is) and what ever else you want. Simple skill build. Now for the method behind the madness - with this rate of fire you have more chances to get crushing blow, block lock anything with a shield, pretty much just be a thorn in somebody's side.

    "But you will die in 1 hit since you don't have any life" - yes I know. If I had 1500 life, I will die in 2 hits instead. Bowzons are NEVER meant to take hits. You might as well play "licence to kill" mode with a PvP bowzon.

    "Your base damage is too low to even give a number! It would take an soj worth of arrows to kill anyone!" - amen to that, however what pvp bowzon build/setup YOU know that will kill in a few hits???

    "What was the P Emer bow for?" - oh yeah! If I recall, poison dmg isn't nerfed in PvP. Who do you know swears by poison Res? In a hell game you could exploit such a minor weakness, however at the cost of RoF (rate of fire).

    "You have NO res! You couldnt even take a ice blast" - excellent point, but why would you sit still for an ice blast?

    This whole post is just a fairy tale idea for a weird PvP bowzon. It is just a blueprint of an idea that sounds nice on paper. Once I accquire the said equipment, I will put this into action. For those of you who KNOW the math behind Diablo 2, you can understand the idea. For those who do not, I will post some figures so you can see my idea in detail.

    Please post input, feedbacks, ideas for me. Thanks
     
  7. zaxien

    zaxien IncGamers Member

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    only one thing you need to know.
    To make a pvp bowzon on ladder you have to be rich #1 OR you need to build your zon around the items. I myself have the items all except the bow which I am waiting to come across.

    If you do not have the means to come across godly gear for a zon then i suggest you do not even waste your time.

    Oh and btw I thought goth bows were normal attack speed regardless and only ballistas were slow.
     
  8. danbus

    danbus IncGamers Member

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    I thought that's what I meant. :cry:

    With this setup, goth bows are out of the question. Trying to get a goth with 100%ED and 20 IAS would still be too slow to be effective. A normal rune bow has the same frame speed as a goth bow with 20 IAS. A rune bow only requires 10 IAS to be a frame faster. A double bow requires 20 IAS to have a frame faster than a 10 IAS rune bow.

    In otherwords--
    20 IAS goth = 0 IAS rune
    10 IAS rune = 0 IAS double
    20 IAS double > ALL

    P.S.

    I just had a thought! The Rouge's Bow is = Double bow in terms of base speed. If I recollect, rouge's bow has 50 IAS. Hmmmmmmm. Pure weapon damage is yet to be realized.
     
  9. zaxien

    zaxien IncGamers Member

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    80 dam 20ias razor bow > all

    too bad my 75dam one has no ias bah
     
  10. WarlockCC

    WarlockCC Diablo Classic Moderator

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    Now, I don't mean to shoot your plan full of holes, but you may wish to consider the following :

    Most duelers are also wearing deaths set, making use of poison pointless.

    With min max rings you could soup up the damage of the rogues bow, but it still won't be enough to kill a char, unless they are afk.

    They'll simply desync you and you will not know what hit you.
    The phrase "But you where on the other side of my screen, how did you hit me with your lance ?" comes to mind.

    Have fun trying to dodge all the orb spikes, FoH, 2h chargers whom you can't shieldlock, barbs who only require full iratha's to outrun your arrows even if they have no points in the increased speed skill, bone spirits, bonespears, 110FC fireballers, Farcast javazons, even lightning furyzons, basically any dueler you could run into. I think even though you'd be wearing deaths gloves and sash, a poison necro's poison would eat right trough you. I still have my 1.09 zons, I tried hooking up my razorzon with a rogues and CB, it doesn't kill. You are long dead before they are. You might not be aware that the GA bug is now fixed, that is what 'killed' the bowzons (actually, it's the bug that made them overpowered). Zon's where never nerfed, it's just the bug that 100% of the bowzons where abusing was fixed. You can only hit a given target once per four frames with the same attack. So 1 strafe volley is a attack, 1 GA is a attack. If your strafe is faster then 4fpa when you face 1 target, you will miss due to this limitation.
    GA used to hit up to 6 times because it would pass trough a target and then head back to the target and hit them again and again. Now, GA only hits once.
    Yes, I applaude your efforts of trying to bring back the bowzon dueler, they had a lot of fans.
    But why would you succeed in doing something the whole of the community hasn't been able to do since 1.10 came out ?

    Want a bowzon dueler ? Go for cold.

    Even with a complete lamezon (cleggies !) you won't be able to hold them off for very long.

    here's the IAS breakpoints table for a composite bow :
    IAS Frames per Attack
    0 % 12
    8 % 11
    22 % 10
    42 % 9
    75 % 8
    142 % 7

    Rogues bow has 50 ias, so you only need 30ias on top of that to get the maximum possible bp in classic. Deaths combo or Twitch and wrap.

    ---=== some extra info ===---
    Zon with Gothic bow table :
    IAS Frames per attack
    0 % 15
    5 % 14
    11 % 13
    22 % 12
    35 % 11
    56 % 10
    89 % 9
    147 % 8
    292 % 7

    Zon with Rune bow :
    IAS Frames per Attack
    0 % 13
    9 % 12
    20 % 11
    37 % 10
    63 % 9
    105 % 8
    200 % 7

    Razor has the same bp's as a composite.

    Good luck with your project, I do hope you succeed, that would provide some more variation on the battlefields.
     
  11. Amaruak

    Amaruak IncGamers Member

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    I sometimes use my PvP bowazon.

    She is very weak, even with some very nice equipment. I experimented with the rogues bow but it just wasn't worth it, it fires fast but its not that good. You can either try and use it with Rattlecage or Goblin Toes. With Goblin Toes your slow, which is very bad. With Ratlecage its a bit pointless because you lose the ias from twitch. It's a fun bow, but most chars will probably replenish their life faster than you can whittle it away and that is no exaggeration.

    If you are dueling people that aren't actually that good at the game a bowazon is quite fun, but if you are dueling a proper pvp character your dead.

    I have some strategies that I like to use, but basicly, a fast barb WILL kill you 90% of the time. The 'new' bone necros will kill you 100% of the time. If they prison you thats it, they also have decrepify. Getting through their bone armour is next to impossible anyway.

    I find that my Bowazon is reasonably good at killing sorc's though, and its funny when fohers shoot you and you dodge it. The lack of a shield really hurts. However, the class is flawed in PVP and its really just fun to mess around with. It will not be an uber pvp killer, even with clegs ;)
     
  12. goomba

    goomba IncGamers Member

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    at lvl 6x, I was solo raiding a nm game with my 'glass cannon build' bowazon using a 123 gothic, and carrying an 1100 damage chant on me from my chanter (chanter was only lvled to 53, as good enough for now)

    anyway, a lvl 8x mart baba discovered what I was up to, and leapt in after hostiling me. I nearly killed him, even though he started his WW way early.

    that being said, I re-iterate - "nearly". My valk is still only lvl 1, and is used to attempt to herd monsters, rather than damage them.

    this zon is built identical to fred's build, with the exception of the bow being 123, instead of the 15x that he referenced, and she's using one dual leach ring, instead of both angellics, since the bow doesn't have any leach on it. else, it's as fred said. howltusk, rcage, gtoes, death's sash/gloves, angellic ring/ammy. strafe lock has been a bit frustrating since she has base vit... it has forced me to reconsider my playing style a bit.

    while this was a 2x character difference, and he no doubt had a decent BO, that chant should have equalized things a bit. not being able to dodge his WW however, doomed me.

    the mobility that other classes with missle type attacks enjoy, ensure that tehy will be more successful pvp in the current patch from what I have read.
     
  13. goomba

    goomba IncGamers Member

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    mine is built as well on ladder. I have found a couple of 12x gothic bows, including one that had dual leach on ladder. however, if/when ladder resets, I have a 14x gothic bow on non ladder waiting for her. I honestly don't feel like collecting the non-ladder gear and building/levelling her there to more fully test fred's glass cannon build.

    the long line of arrows, and the thwip, thwip, thwip, thwip, thwip sound are neat, and a vivid reminder of D1, and the windforce bow that everyone loaded up with ray's trainer... it's also something that one doesn't see much of on either, ladder, or non ladder classic.
     
  14. danbus

    danbus IncGamers Member

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    pvp bowzon pt 2

    Thank you so much for the feedbacks!

    I thought about that and I was thinking "he's right" :cry: . Then I thought about CB. There is a 25% chance. That's not good. I researched CB again and it's 1/20th (5%) of current hp, not total hp. Basically the less life a person has, the less damage it does. Kinda like sorc SF.

    1000 - 5% = 50 damage

    1000 - 50 = 950

    950 - 5% = 47.5 damage

    and so on


    -------------------------------

    Since I'm all about PvP and using a zon is my fav, better build would be LF zon PvM by day and a bowzon PvP at night. I read that javazons don't need AR (or something to that effect) and I figured I could just pump up my Vit and Nergy for survival. And what about bowzon damage? I got that covered. I got this new idea :scratch: after reading somewhere about "how poison works". It seems that poison in PvP has yet to be changed. It does full damage (yay!) and stacks. Now I have done a little math to get some idea of how it would work. You will use the fastest 6 p Emerald bow (600 dmg over 7 seconds) you can find.

    600 / 7 = 85.71 damage per second.

    Let's use 80 for easier estimation. Now since poison stacks with ranged attacks that would mean 80 dmg every 1 second per arrow (that hits). In example, you hit 5 times.

    80 * 7 = 560 (1 arrow) * 5 = 2800 (5 arrows).

    You have the potential to do about 2800 dmg over 35 seconds. That's a opponent who has 0 poison Res.

    True indeed. Let's try this. A person has 85% poison res and poison duration reduced by 75%.

    80 - 85% = 12 damage

    7 / 4 = 1.75 duration

    1 hit = 21 damage

    12 * 2 = 21 * 5 (5 hits) = 105 damage over 10 seconds


    1000 life opponent will take 48 hits to kill. That may not seem alot of damage, but lets compare this. A gothic bow with 60-160 dmg and 200 dex.

    160 + 200% = 480 max damage

    60 + 200% = 180 MIN damage

    Uh oh. This is PvP. 75% damage reduction!

    480 - 75% = 120 max damage

    180 - 75% = 45 min damage

    120 + 45 / 2 = 82.5 (165 critical hit damage) average damage per hit.

    1000 life opponent will take 13 hits to kill (7 if ALL crit hits).

    With all that in mind, that's cool! If I had such a bow, I would own too, however I don't have a Swiss SOJ account to afford a bow like that (I am accepting donations :wink2: ). But those figures are based on set events. Realistically not EVERYONE is going to have 85 poison Res with 75% duration reduction. So even at 50% poison Res and 75% PDR you could still do about the same amount of damage. With this build, skill is required to stay alive. I would rather have 1000 damage and 1 life than 1 damage and 1000 life with a PvP bowzon.


    FYI - knockback has a 50% chance of success in PvP and has automatic stun effect. EXTREME hit recovery would be necessary, however that would make the opponent lose out on poison Res. Only exception is items with alot of poison Res

    Well, I'm not that very good at explaining bowzon dueling, however I do know that dodging a tele sorc throwing orbs around is easier than a charger. With a 2h charger you are guaranteed to hit and with a 50% chance of knockback you could kill a 1000 life pally with 48 hits. Just stand, aim, fire! But I'm not going to get into all the basics of bowzon PvP. I'll assume that everyone here is PRO. However if I get positive responses to this setup, I'll try to explain the best I can.

    Please, please give me feedback, input, additions, comments. :prop:

    Thanks

    PS
    I play mostly @ 12am EST. *danbus is my account name
     
  15. WarlockCC

    WarlockCC Diablo Classic Moderator

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    Poison from the same source does not stack. It resets the counter. Just hit the target once per amount of time the poison source lasts. No speed required.

    Feel free to read the tao of poison :
    http://www.diabloii.net/strategy/x-articles/taopoison.shtml
    Written by a true fan of poison.

    ---===---
    I think you'd be doing most of your poison damage post mortum.
     
  16. danbus

    danbus IncGamers Member

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    Sigh, I reread the tao of poison, and I stand very corrected. I guess I just want the PvP bowzon back. Lordy, it would be nice to give us 100% pvp dmg with bows or something, since they fixxed the GA bug, GA pvp bowzons have become futile.
     
  17. WarlockCC

    WarlockCC Diablo Classic Moderator

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    It would be nice if they where not so entirely banished as they are now, but you must admit that they where very, very abused back in 1.0x when the GA bug was still in place.
    Nothing more annoying then a zon townguarding in a bvb game.
    Let's be thankfull that we can still PvM with them a bit, so they are not entirely obsolete like for instance... firewall sorcs ?
    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for getting them back in the scene, just less dominant then they used to be. In every game you could find a full dupe zon. All using the same skills and stat settings. It wasn't really variety and most used maphack or that auto-targeting (What was that called again?) to shoot you from barely within map-visibility.
     
  18. danbus

    danbus IncGamers Member

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    Scrolling.
     
  19. WarlockCC

    WarlockCC Diablo Classic Moderator

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    Yeap, that's the one. Also annoying was getting hostiled and almost inmediately they would be in front of you on the wp, not to mention when they where corpse guarding.
     
  20. danbus

    danbus IncGamers Member

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    I have just about completed my PvP bowzon. After getting some input on the use of crushing blow and poison, I've decided to just go straight bowzon. My weapon right now is a +1 93 dmg goth bow with no ias =( . I have to make use of it the best I can until I can get another. I am looking for a 100+ 20ias goth. I have NOTHING decent to trade for it except for gull or something.

    Good news is that she's a hybrid (lighting fury), so I can solo cows on own. I can clear cows with remarkable speed with a conv pally.

    I recently got desperate for a tusk so I traded it for a shard, and now I just need to get to a ripe lvl of 80 to complete some skills. I'm just trying to relive the old days. I don't intend to be the uber pvp bowzon, I just want to have fun.
     

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