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pvp anti-caster c/c kicksin guide (Mageslayer v1.6) - Updated der=

Discussion in 'Assassin' started by chaos9, Feb 7, 2004.

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  1. chaos9

    chaos9 IncGamers Member

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    pvp anti-caster c/c kicksin guide (Mageslayer v1.6)

    Mageslayer v1.6

    Introduction
    This guide describes a specialized application of the standard c/c dtalon pvp kicksin to produce a character who excels in dueling casters. As evident in the title (Mageslayer), this build started as a plan to maximize sorc killing, but I soon discovered that it was effective for other casters.

    This guide is not intended to replace the other pvp kicksin guides but to provide a more specialized anti-caster alternative. Three principles guided its development. First, most pvp guides attempt to create characters that will be equally effective against all classes and even all varieties within each class. Accomplishing this goal requires multiple outfits of godly gear and typically involves some sacrifices in skill and/or stat points. The build presented here is designed to specialize against casters, and although it has been surprisingly effective against melee characters, that isn’t the focus. Second, I am often frustrated with pvp guides that seem to assume that nobody will start dueling until level 99. Thus, this guide is designed to maximize your effectiveness beginning around level 46. Third, this build is designed with public dueling in mind. This is relevant because I assume that most players participate in public dueling with an “anything goes†mindset. In my personal opinion, if the whole bad manners thing bothers you, you probably aren’t dueling in public anyway. You will see that I do not advocate using excessive amounts of absorb, but I will expect most opponents to do so.

    Stats
    Strength is probably the most important stat for a kicker because it greatly enhances kick damage. Of course, strength must be balanced with vitality because your kicks won’t do much damage when you’re dead.

    Strength: Initially, you will want to get your strength to 79 so that you can use Bartucs. This will be enough until you are around level 50, and then you will want to pump strength a bit. Ultimately, I suggest a minimum of 100 strength, with 150 being the number to shoot for at higher levels.

    Dexterity: Like strength, you need to get your dexterity to 79 so you can use Bartucs. You probably won’t need much (if any) more than this. As you level, monitor your attack rating and chance to hit. With the gear I will be recommending below, you should be able to keep your dex fairly low.

    Vitality: This is pvp, so every point you can spare goes here.

    Energy: None.

    Skills
    The target skill allocation looks like this:

    Max Dragon Talon
    Max Weapon Block
    Max Venom
    1 pt in Fade (or more as needed)
    1 pt in Dragon Flight (or more as needed)
    1 pt in Shadow Master
    1 pt in Wake of Fire
    1 pt in Mind Blast
    1 pt in all prerequisites

    This build is fairly flexible, and I do not want to give you the impression that no choice is involved. Thus, I will split my discussion of skills into two parts: core skills and secondary skills. The core skills are what makes this build and are strongly recommended. The secondary skills are where the flexibility comes in. I will present recommendations here, but there is some room for alternatives.

    Core Skills

    Dragon Talon - 20 points
    Dragon Talon (dtalon) is your main attack (just like in all pvp kicker builds) and should be the first skill maxed. At slvl 24, dtalon gives you 5 kicks. With lots of +skill gear and +martial arts charms, it is possible to get your dtalon to slvl 30, giving you 6 kicks. While 6 kicks sounds great, I am not convinced that it is worth the sacrifice in gear it would require unless you happen to have tons of +martial arts charms.

    Weapon Block - 8 to 15 points
    This skill forms the basis of this build - it is that important. Given the focus on casters, we go c/c in order to utilize Weapon Block (WB). WB permits you to block melee and most elemental/magical attacks at a rate of 60% (at slvl 26). 60% might not sound like much when you are used to 75% with a shield. However, note that WB lets you block many attacks that are unblockable with a shield (e.g., bone spirit, frozen orb, etc.). As if that weren’t enough of a reason to use it in an anti-caster build, WB remains at 60% even when you are running. This makes the c/c sin one of the most mobile characters around. The goal is to reach slvl 26 after all +skill items, giving 60% block. Figure out how many +skill items you will have, and determine the exact point investment accordingly.

    Dragon Flight - 1 point+
    Having at least 1 point in Dragon Flight (dflight) is essential. This is the only way you are going to be able to reach most casters, and it is a great skill for hitting moving targets. Maxing dflight results in a considerable boost to its damage. Assuming you can hit your target, maxed dflight (especially with venom and open wounds) will put a serious dent in the opponent’s life. The problem is that even with dflight maxed, you are only going to hit 25% of the time against someone with max block who is standing still. Of course, the second your target is running, everything changes, and your odds of hitting with dflight go way up. Thus, dflight is a great skill for killing those opponents who realize they underestimated you and try to make a run for it. My recommendation is to start with 1 point and hold off on any more until your other skills and gear are complete. At that point, it should be clear to you whether more points here will help. I will probably add additional points to dflight at some point because I have found it to be extremely effective against casters and zons.

    Shadow Master - 1 point
    Little more than a distraction in 1.10, but still useful enough for 1 point. It is in the core skill section because it the distraction it provides is invaluable. Many players attack it just long enough for you to kill them. Additional points add life and resistance, but are probably not worthwhile.

    Secondary Skills
    Secondary skills include:

    Mind Blast - 1point+
    In the first version of this guide, Mind Blast (MB) was in the core skills. I said that I felt MB was one of the most important strengths of playing a sin. After many more duels against a variety of character classes, I no longer feel this way. True, if we were making a kicksin for taking on melee characters, a high level MB would be critical. However, for the Mageslayer build, I suggest that 1 point here is likely to be enough. While MB is nice in certain situations, I find that I rarely need it. In fact, the only time I used MB was in team duels where I was attempting to help out against melee characters who were more than 20 levels higher than me. I suggest putting 1 point in MB as soon as you get it and waiting to see how much you really need it before adding additional points.

    Burst of Speed - 1 point
    One point in Burst of Speed (BoS) should be plenty with +skills. Although it seems obvious that one should use fade instead of BoS when fighting a sorc, this is not always the case. The added r/w speed you get from BoS can often keep you out of range until the right moment. If you are fast enough, it becomes very difficult for the opponent to even hit you with fireballs, bone spears, arrows, etc. In fact, I tend to start every duel with BoS and find that I need fade less than half the time.

    Fade - 1 point+
    Fade can be incredibly useful in certain situations. What’s not to like about enhanced physical damage resistance, shorter curse duration, and improved elemental resists? The only limitation is that using fade means you do not benefit from the enhanced r/w speed of BoS. I find that most of the time, this extra speed more than makes up for the loss of fade’s benefits. However, you will probably need fade against some sorcs, trapsins, poison necros, and necros who use a lot of curses. Fade is also very helpful in dealing with those pesky town guarding sorcs or wind druids. How many points to put here beyond 1 will depend on what your resists look like in whatever difficulty level you plan to duel. Thus, I suggest waiting on fade until your gear is finished and you have a sense of how much you will need.

    Venom - 20 points
    This is the most controversial sin skill, and you have probably already many debates about the pros and cons of venom for pvp. I too have been following these discussions, and it seems clear that the majority recommend it for pvp kicksins. Not everyone has high poison resist, and venom boosts your damage (especially with Trang’s gloves). My recommendation is to max venom, however, you can still be successful without it.

    Wake of Fire - 1 point
    WoF is superior to LS for stun-lock, and this is the only reason you are using it. It may be necessary against zons with high passive skills and other sins using WB as a means to trigger their dodge/block and permit you to attack in between blocking cycles.

    Equipment
    This section will be expanded in later versions of the guide. For now, I will provide mid-level (say around level 50) recommendations. Let me also mention that I really don’t care about the whole “bad manners†argument. I duel only in public games and only against players who are of a higher level. I assume that everyone in this environment will use whatever they can get their hands on, and I don’t have a problem with that.

    Claws
    There are a few options to consider, and the good news is that some are very affordable. At lower levels, it is hard to go wrong with a malice claw as your primary claw. It will help you level and can be quite effective in pvp due to the 100% open wounds mod. The real drawback of malice is that its life drain will require you to use another piece of gear to counter it. Another option would be a strength claw (+strength and crushing blow). Once you hit level 42, use a bartucs as your secondary claw. The +skills and +stat mods make this an ideal choice. Another viable option is to use 2 bartucs. This provides a significant boost in skills and stats over the malice/bartucs combo. Your kick damage will benefit from the +strength, and the +skills will help boost your venom, weapon block, BoS, etc. If you are lacking in resists, you may also want to consider using a jade claw as your secondary. For this setup, you will need a bartucs instead of a malice as your primary claw. If you can find them, using a pair of +3 shadow skills claws on weapon switch to boost your venom, fade, etc. before the fight can be helpful. During leveling, you might also find that having a claw that grants you death sentry can be useful.

    Helm
    Many options to consider. Peasant Crown is okay for low levels. Guillaume’s Face is simply awesome for leveling, and I often use it for dueling because I am too lazy to switch it out. It tends to be much more effective against melee characters and bone necros, but it will not help you against other casters much. Against casters, Rockstopper is an option for those needing additional resists. At higher levels, you will probably want to upgrade to Shako or Crown of Ages.

    Belt
    Try to find both T-gods and Snowclash. I wear T-gods most of the time for the 20 strength/20 vitality bonus but occasionally switch to Snowclash against cold sorces. String of Ears is an option for leveling. Verdungos is the belt of choice if you can afford it. If you don’t have these yet, look for +strength and resistances.

    Gloves
    Venom users will want Trang’s gloves for the 25% poison damage increase. If you can’t afford these, Venom Grip are usually cheap and better than nothing. Dracul’s Grasp are great if you can afford them. Crafted gloves are an option. Look for crushing blow, resists, and/or leech. At lower levels, Bloodfist are nice. Although Hellmouth would help vs. fire sorces, I am not crazy about the other mods.

    Boots
    Because this is a kicksin, your boots are the primary factor determining how much damage your kicks inflict. Use the highest damage boots you can wear for your level. Although some boots have great mods (e.g., goreriders), maximizing your kick damage is probably even more important. A great example of this was provided by clsurfer. He compared regular (non-upgraded) gores with rare scarabshell boots and made a convincing argument that the extra damage gained from the scarabshells makes up for the loss of mods from the gores. This is particularly true if you are using malice because you are not really benefiting from the extra open wounds mods on the gores. Of course, goreriders can be upgraded to a higher damage class, and this might be the best way to go.

    Armor
    Duriel’s Shell is one of the best mid-level armors you can find for this build because of the resists and “cannot be frozen†mod it grants. Another great choice is Lionheart (resists and open wounds). For the rich, Guardian Angel is nice. For those who decide not to use a malice claw, consider Toothrow or Crowcaw as another source of open wounds. If you don’t have any of these, look for armor that gives you resists, +skills, and/or damage enhancing mods.

    Amulet
    I generally wear a crafted +2 shadow skills ammy that features +resist all. Look for +skills and resists here. For the rich, Mara’s or Highlord’s are nice options.

    Rings
    Ravenfrost is highly recommended for one slot. You will need the “cannot be frozen†mod if you don’t have it elsewhere. For the other slot, it really depends on who you are dueling. I usually start with a Manald Heal for the mana leech and restore life (which you need to counter the malice claw). I keep a Dwarf Star in my stash for those fire sorces, although I haven’t actually worn it in a duel yet. A second Raven would be helpful against cold sorces, and a nice dual leech would be good for leveling. Generally, look for leech and resists here.

    Charms
    Quite simply, you need resists, +shadow skills, and r/w here. +martial arts skills are worth using if you are going for the 6 kicks from a slvl 30 dtalon. Life and strength are always nice if you can spare the room.

    PvP Tactics
    After reaching level 50, I dropped off my gold and threw myself into many of those free-for-all duels where everyone else in the game was level 70-80. I also played in several team duels and challenged countless players at least 10 levels higher than me to 1:1 duels. This range of experience has permitted me to duel against all classes and to face everyone from noob duelers to experienced players with godly gear. I was amazed at how well this build fared against most opponents.

    One thing you have going for you with this build is that you will be consistently underestimated. When you enter a game and go hostile (or get hostiled), you see the other players going to their stash to put on their lighting resist/absorb gear. Once they realize that you are not a trapper, they typically laugh at you and hurl insults…until you kill them. At this point, the ignorant half will accuse you of hacking, and the experienced half will express their admiration, often saying they didn’t realize sins could be so powerful.

    Casters
    I haven’t had the chance yet to face any hammerdins, but I have dueled several varieties of sorc, wind druids, and necros.

    Sorc
    Most will be some combination of cold and fire. Figure out their primary attack and wear the appropriate resist/absorb gear. Start with BoS and never stop moving. Against many, it is as easy as dflighting in and datloning them to death. The good ones will be able to teleport very fast, and you will often dflight in and have them disappear before you can land more than a single dtalon hit. When this happens, dflight will need to become your primary killing skill. Compared to orb and fireball, blizzard is much tougher. The killing power of high level blizzard is scary and harder to avoid. Against these sorces, if you stop moving even for a second, it is over. In most of my fights against good blizzard sorcs, we both ended up dying. I would dflight into a blizzard and manage to get a few hits in before dying. Right after I died, the sorc went down from my poison.

    Wind Druid
    I thought these guys were going to be much harder than they were. After dueling several wind druids around level 70, I found that I won more than I lost. Use some cold resist/absorb and fade if needed. Expect town guarding. They can take more hits than your average sorc, and tornado really hurts. However, dflighting to them prevented me from being hit with hurricane. As long as I could talon them to death before they hit me with a tornado, it was easy. Because tornados don’t hit all the time, it is all about whether you can dodge them while getting the kill.

    Necro
    The first few necros I faced went down so easily that I was getting overconfident. Just then, I had my first experience with an enigma-wearing bone necro who knew what he was doing. Wow, these guys are tough! Spamming bone prison, teleporting with skill, and alternating spear and spirit. When caught in a bone prison and the necro is out of your dflight range, prepare to die. However, when they make the mistake of staying on your screen, dflight fast and you may have a chance. Against these guys, use BoS (not fade), wear enigma or a teleport ammy, and pray for a miracle.

    The few poison necros I have faced were fairly easy as long as you see it coming, stack your poison resist/reduce poison length gear, and use fade. At high levels, their nova will hurt no matter what you wear. However, you will usually be able to kill them with the standard dflight/dtalon attack before they can kill you.

    Trappers
    You are definitely going to need fade here. Good trappers are extremely difficult even with T-gods. If I could get to them before they laid all of their traps, I usually won. Once all their traps were down, I could sometimes win by casting shadow master to one side of the traps and then dflighting in. With a quick initial hit, I could usually bring down the trapper before I died. Against those who take full advantage of a high level mind blast, I usually died well before I could do much damage.

    Bowazons
    Yeah, I know they aren’t really casters, but they are more similar to casters than to most melee characters. First, use BoS and never stop moving against a bowazon. With WB, you don’t have to worry about your block rate. Expect poison damage and adjust your resist gear accordingly. Guided arrow was nerfed in 1.10, but it still hurts quite a bit. Run around them in circular patterns, making sure to vary your course so it isn’t predictable. When you get them on the edge of your screen, dflight in and dtalon. You will be able to kill some zons this way, but those who have high passive skills will be able to dodge well enough that they may escape. Try to get them on the run where their passive skills are less effective. If they prove to be too tough, use WoF to trigger their evasive skills and then dflight and dtalon again. This will help if you can hit them in between defensive moves.

    Melee
    This guide was designed to maximize your ability to defeat casters. Although the basic build presented here can be effective vs. melee characters, substantial gear changes would be needed to beat most decent melee duelers. Another thing to realize is the a c/c build is going to be less effective than a c/s build for going toe-to-toe with melee characters. At the same time, the c/c build is going to have the advantage over the c/s build while running. Thus, your strategy against melee characters should involve great speed and mobility. Think more in terms of hit and run than stand your ground and fight.

    Even without gear changes, I have discovered that this build can do surprisingly well against many melee characters. Players who do not use a shield and lack the zons passive skills are at a disadvantage because you will hit them fairly easily. Surprisingly, I have been able to take down several level 80 barbs (at level 50) who were using polearms, axes, or 2-handed swords without shields. I expected to lose because they were destroying everyone else in the game, but I was pleasantly surprised. With BoS and WB, it is difficult for them to hit you until you dflight in, and then it is sometimes possible to kill them before they can recover. If this doesn’t work, mind blast will be essential. The shield users are much harder unless they run. Pallys typically beat me (with the gear discussed above) unless I get lucky with mind blast.

    But what if you want to duel melee characters more often? You will need a different gear setup that replaces resists with PDR. Look at replacing your armor, helm, and belt with items that grant PDR. Also realize that attack rating is going to become more important. Using angelic amulet and rings can help considerably here. I am still experimenting to find the optimal setup for melee, so expect an expansion of this section in the next version of this guide.

    Concluding PvP Tale
    Just to give you an idea of this build’s potential, let me share a quick story from my recent pubbie dueling experience. At level 53, I enter a game with 3 sorcs and a barb. The sorcs were levels 47, 62, and 73. The barb was 51. After some team duels, it changed to free-for-all (or at least that is what I thought initially). I go running out with BoS and Venom, wearing my malice/bartuc combo, Duriel’s, Ravenfrost, Manald Heal, Goreriders, crafted ammy, T-gods, and Peasant Crown. I then realized that it was 4 vs 1, and I was the 1! Rather than retreat to town and complain, I kept going just to see what would happen. Using only Venom (maxed), Dtalon (maxed), Shadow Master (1 pt.), BoS (1 pt.), and Dflight (1 pt.), I killed everyone in the game without using any potions or trips to town. I had about ¼ of my life left, but I was victorious. Stunned, they visited their stashes, regrouped, and we did it again with the same conclusion…and again…and again. Then the 47 sorc left and returned with a 57 bowazon, but the outcome was the same. Did they suck? Well, some of them clearly did. The 47 sorc would go down in 1 hit and the 51 barb wasn’t smart enough to use a shield (even after I suggested he do so). However, the other two sorces seemed decent and if I stood still and let one fireball me (which we did later), I was dead in 1 hit. A fluke? Maybe, but I am still encouraged.
     
  2. Naliworld

    Naliworld IncGamers Member

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    It's a good start, but IMO you need more emphasis on Strategies, as item/skills are elaborated on more on similar guides.

    /me stickies thread
     
  3. chaos9

    chaos9 IncGamers Member

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    Thanks for the sticky. You are correct that I need much more detail on tactics and other areas. I plan to expand tactics and items/skills sections quite a bit, but I thought that getting some reader input would be helpful at this point. I have already started working on the next version, but I won't post it until I have received some input here.
     
  4. clsurfer

    clsurfer IncGamers Member

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    An interesting read, thanks for sharing.

    Although I do have a few questions/suggestions(?) about your choice of gears and other aspects.

    I will do it in the order from the most important to least important.

    a) Boots:
    War Boots (gore rider) kick damage: 39-80
    Rare Scarabshell Boots kick damage: 60-110

    I did a quick calculation on a level 50 character with: 150 str, 100 dex (Bartuc adds 20 dex), level 30 DTalon (more about it later, 208% enhanced damage), 20% OoW (outside of weapon) ed from Lionheart more about it later)

    final damage:
    with gore rider: 375-642
    with rare scarabshell boots: 482-795 (assuming no str/dex bonus from the rares)

    the difference is very significant.

    the nice *unique* mods from gore rider is:
    15% deadly strike (which doesn't work with kicking)
    10% open wounds (which means nothing when you already got 100% from "malice")
    15% crushing blow (which helps a bit but not as significant if you are also using a 35% CB G. Face and 10% CB glove)

    i feel the the extra 15% CB is not enough to swing me from using the boots with the highest kick damage available. i'd try to get a rare Scarabshell boots with 30 FRW, 10 FHR, Stats, Resists, etc.

    b) Choice of Claw/ring:
    "malice" is a great claw in PvP for its 100% OW mods. it does have another decent mod of minus target defense, but less significant. on the other hand, this is as far as the good part about "malice" goes. I do not like the fact that you'd be forced to use somthing (manald heal in your case) *often* (may not be always) to counter its life drain, while there are many other good options out there. if i have to use "malice" claw, i'd prefer using angelic wing and halo (+6 life replenish, 10 dex, damage to mana, massive a.r., 95 to life) combo over manald heal + rare skill amulet unless:
    1) i am short in resist
    2) i want to get to 6 kick cycle (see below)

    open wounds grants you about 25 pvp per second dmg (non resistable) for 8 seconds at level 50 for a total of 200 damage. i think there are other options that might swing me from using "malice"
    1) a second bartuc (+2/1 skill to help me in my course of getting lvl 30 dtalon, better weapon block, 30 fhr, 20 str/dex, life leech) that will adds around 15 pvp dmg per kick from skill bonus and extra str/dex
    2) a rare +2 greater talon with inherent +dragon talon skills (again to hit the 6 kick cycle)
    3) a "strength" claw hopefully made out of a fast claw with built-in +3 dragon talon: 20 str, 10 vit, 25% crushing blow

    3) armor:
    since you will be using raven frost, the cannot be frozen mod on duriel's shell is not that important. at level 50, duriel's shell adds stats and life equiv. to 95 (with p. ruby socket: 133), while lionheart: 230. resistwise, lionheart adds a total of 120, and duriel's shell: 110. the extra 20% OoW ed from lionheart is just icings on the cake.

    i like *lionheart* better

    4) kick cycle:
    lvl 24 dtalon: 7/2/2/2/2 kicks
    lvl 30 dtalon: 7/2/2/2/2/2 kicks
    if possible, i'd like to get to 6 kick cycles, which requires 10 + m.a. skills.
    2x bartucs grant you 6
    +2 m.a. skill cb glove grant you another 2
    the rest can come from either circlet or amulet (ring and armor are best left to: raven frost(s), dwarf star(s) lionhearts)
    also being above lvl 42 let you have the freedom of using some +skill grand charms which make your gear selection more flexible.

    5) from what i heard, if you are using venom, outside poison damage does not play an important role. level 30 venom gives you around 700 (give or take a few) psn damage per .4 second. the poison charm at lvl 50 with the fastest poison rate grants you 5 per slot per .4 second (10 frame). i think even +5 str large charm will add more kick damage during that time frame (about 6 pvm per slot per kick <-2 frame). not to mention pdr is capped at 50% and poison resistance at 75%.

    of course, you can also use life/resist charms etc. in those slots freed.

    6) a minor point, but i think i'd mention it. unless it has changed in 1.10, I don't think players can die from poison alone. your double K.O.'s are most likely resulted from the following scenario :you killed the sorc first, and the blizzard casted before sorc died fell upon you to send you to your demise.


    just my two cents, probably made some mistakes somewhere.
     
  5. chaos9

    chaos9 IncGamers Member

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    Assuming that the gore riders can be upgraded to result in significantly higher damage, they may still be viable. Of course, you are right that many types of boots will provide more damage than non-upgraded gores. I think I will add a clearer discussion of the pros and cons of various boot choices to the next version since this is so crucial to the kicksin.

    I haven't minded using the Manald ring so far because I really haven't needed additional resists and because it gives both mana leech (which I don't have another source of) and the life regen to counter the malice. Without the Manald, I would have to make another sacrifice to get the mana leech. I haven't figured out the best option for this yet. I have Crescent Moon, but I have to give up the +skills from the ammy I currently use.

    Regarding the malice claw, I probably should have mentioned that I use it about half the time and use a second bartucs the rest of the time for the very reasons you noted. The "strength" claw is also a good idea once I find the right claw to use.

    Regarding armor, I like Duriels for the resists and becuause it frees me up to not always have to use the Raven ring. You raise some good points about Lionheart, so I will have to look at it more closely. I will certainly add it to the guide.

    On the kick cycle issue, I didn't go for the 7/2/2/2/2 level because I don't think it is realistic to expect most people to have access to 10 ma skills (at least not initially). As I update the guide for levels beyond 50, this will be an important area to add. While I could hit this with my current sin, it would mean too many gear sacrifices because I don't have that many grand charms. Of course, you are right that it belongs in the guide.

    On the topic of venom, there seems to be a lot of disagreement about what boosts its damage. Many have argued that getting high levels of venom (through +shadow skills), trang's gloves, and poison damage charms really helps. Honestly, the only reason I was initially using poison damage charms was that I was going to try to make the char without venom. Once I changed my mind, I got rid of most of them. Good point about the +strength or life instead.

    Thanks much for your input. You gave me a lot of ideas for revising the guide.
     
  6. CronicTKY

    CronicTKY IncGamers Member

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    Well, there's one point I'd like to raise, and it's an issue with the next version. The guide as of now is a good start, but the things pointed out are needed. On the subject of strategy, I believe this Kick Assassin could be viable against melee, even Paladins. Read the Kicking Basic Sticky. This shows all of the effects that can be carried over to the kick; which includes Ignore Target Defense. Now, I'll try to experiment with this, but I'm attempting to create a new kicker, but she is not up to level. Now, if YOU could test these effects against melee, maybe you could work the equipment section to include equipment that is suitable for melee combat? Thanks for listening to me.
     
  7. Slayaboxer

    Slayaboxer IncGamers Member

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    when u said you can kill most no shield barbs, i dont believe it, my polearm barb can dish out massive damage and EXTREMELY ACCURATE

    If you tflight, i will do a short WW and when u get right beside me my WW should hit u and pretty much kill you since ur lower lvled
     
  8. chaos9

    chaos9 IncGamers Member

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    Actually, I have found myself in an increasing number of melee duels. Although I usually go into them expecting to be beaten, I have been doing fairly well even without any PDR gear. I am somewhat hesistant to expand this into a vs. melee guide because I believe that these sort of tactics and gear selection dominate most of the other kicksin guides. However, I probably will provide at least some suggestions for vs. melee gear in the next revision. Thanks for the input.
     
  9. chaos9

    chaos9 IncGamers Member

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    Based on my experience so far against the players I have dueled, characters without a shield are much easier because they lack the ability to block dtalon kicks. While a well-built paladin with max blocking and high defense was nearly impossible to hit without gear changes, a high-level polearm barb was fairly easy to hit. Although the barb had way more life than the paladin, connecting with so many more kicks made the life drop much faster. In addition, the c/c sin has a 60% chance to block a ww attack even while running.

    This 60% block rate combined with the massive r/w speed from BoS makes it extremely difficult for the barb to land a hit. Against the last polearm barb I fought, he only got one ww in (which was blocked as I was running) before dying.

    Now, I am not trying to say I can take any non-shield user out there. That would be crazy. I continue to enter every duel against a melee character assuming that I will be killed. After all, I use no PDR gear or anything else designed to maximize effeciency against melee. However, I have done remarkably well. This makes me appreciate how effective a kicksin who was wearing all the anti-melee gear could do.

    While on the subject of shield or non-shield barb, I will add that I had a much easier time against a level 80 polearm barb than I did against a level 60 s/s barb. The s/s barb could block my dtalon attack and whirl through me before I could get off another attack. I had a chance with mind blast, but it was immediately clear that the kill was going to take forever and be tough. Thus, I would say that PDR gear is going to be much more critical against shield users because you must plan on taking a few hits.
     
  10. Æ’enris

    Æ’enris Banned

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    I don't see how you can say wind druids are easy. Especially if you were level 50 dueling them, which your guide seems to suggest. To save another arguement I will just say that you have been dueling some unexperienced wind druids.
     
  11. chaos9

    chaos9 IncGamers Member

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    That is entirely possible. My point was not that all wind druids were easy. I am confident that there are many outstanding wind druids out there. I was simply saying that I keep going into duels against them expecting to lose and winning rather easily (even though they have 15-20 levels on me). At the same time, these wind druids were doing fairly well against many other players in the game. Maybe all this means is that I was the most experienced dueler in the game, but I am not sure about this. So far, the only wind druids I have had trouble with were the enigma users.
     
  12. boshekinthunder

    boshekinthunder IncGamers Member

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    One thing to note that it seems you have left out is that fade also gives damage reduction (1% per level I believe). Using this would help significantly against wind druids (since tornado is physical) as well as against any melee class, except for maybe enchantress.
     
  13. chaos9

    chaos9 IncGamers Member

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    Good point. I will make sure this gets included in the revision because it is important.
     
  14. leadfart

    leadfart IncGamers Member

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    It seems to be you have way too many absorb equipment. There are a list of bad manner things. Absorb to me is the top of the list. Maybe below corpse guarding. Please do not promote that in guides. With the right equip, almost any char can be nullified. That's not the point of dueling.
     
  15. chaos9

    chaos9 IncGamers Member

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    The point of dueling in a public game context is killing the opponent. If you are concerned about "bad manners," don't duel in public. I was clear that the purpose of the guide is for public dueling, and my philosophy in this context is that anything goes.
     
  16. leadfart

    leadfart IncGamers Member

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    Guard the corpses then. It follows the same philosophy of winning by any means and not giving the opponent any chance, instead of giving a fair and good duel. Public may not realize that there are certain things we should do to make the dueling ground a better place, but guide makers should be above that. Even if you don't believe in a better dueling ground, please do not make it worse by promoting bad manners.
     
  17. D1ce

    D1ce IncGamers Member

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    I would like to respectfully say, that with the gear he listed, it would take a severly underdeveleoped character to be fully nullified with the absorb he is using. Raven is pretty much standard these days, and snowclash is effective, but will not help completely absorb Cold attacks unless you are facing an Orb Sorceress in the 200-300 range damage. The same I would say with Dwarf and Hellmouth. As for Lightning absorb, he only suggested T-Gods, and that also will not completely nullify a lightning attack save a Low damage LS. IMHO this isn't v1.09 or even D2C anymore where 75% MAX resists was enough of a defense vs elemental classes. With vastly increased synergy damage of elemental attacks, I personally think it is foolhardy to try to face them without adequately shielding yourself against elemental classes in order to give yourself a fighting chance. Would it be fair for elemental classes not to use Shako for the DR vs melee classes?
     
  18. D1ce

    D1ce IncGamers Member

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    oh yeah, is the claw you make malic in or whatever claw is your primary ikmportant that it'd be a greater talon or a runic talon [-30 WSM] so it hits the 7/2/2/2 kick mark?
     
  19. chaos9

    chaos9 IncGamers Member

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    Guarding corpses is pointless. The only way a kill is satisfying is if the other player has the opportunity to wear whatever he wants and use whatever gear he selects. Blizzard did not design this game with the concept of "fair dueling" in mind. I have been very clear about the purpose and goals of this guide. Interestingly, you are the only one who seems to consider wearing one Raven and T-Gods BM.
     
  20. chaos9

    chaos9 IncGamers Member

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    Yes, making malice in a -30 WSM claw is going to help. Fortunately, the runes are so easy to find that it shouldn't be hard to make a new one when you find a better claw.
     
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