PvM WW: IK > BOTD.. personal experience

Frenzied Bovine

Diabloii.Net Member
PvM WW: IK > BOTD.. personal experience

This is not intended to start a flame war, just to post my personal experiences from someone who has sampled the grass on both sides of the fence.

I've played both barbs extensively and I have to say that the IK set just freaking totally owns BOTD.

I'm not even going to bother talking about the pros and cons of a zerker/concentrate build, since I find killing once monster at a time insanely tedious. It's just not my thing, sorry. No, i'm not going to talk about PvP either, though I imagine BOTD > IK in that arena.

First, some background. I spent a lot of time collecting this gear to make the godliest non-IK barb I could think of. I had a 392% eth BOTD Ghost Spear. Fastest whirl around, godly range, crazy damage, 150-1141 two handed. I had people try and tell me a War Pike was a better weapon; I just laughed in their faces.

I put this evil little spear on a barb wearing Arreats, Chains of Honor, LoH, Gore Riders (there's a story behind that), Verdungo's, Nature's Peace, Highlords and a Raven Frost. I'd say he was pretty godly. He tore through demons like nothing i've ever seen, one-whirl killing hell Travincal pretty much, 10+k Berserk and 9.5k whirlwind with a might merc.

I probably could have had a better setup with dual eth BOTD CB's/Zerkers, but in a pinch, a Ghost Spear was a good trial run and didn't cost me quite as much :) Zerker's would definately have had better resale value, though.

At the end of the day though, for me.. IK set totally owns BOTD in PvM. I sold the spear yesterday for sojs, and am not afraid to say that I am TOTALLY happy that I went back to the IK set for all my whirlwind needs.

Why?

--> IK set is pure str/vit. You never have to worry about allocating points to dex, ever. That means more damage (str) or more life (vit) depending on how you want to play it. You hit just fine anyway. My BOTD spearie had less life even though he wore a 39/12 verdungo's. I'll take my 4k life IK barb any day, thanks.

--> IK set has Crushing Blow. You really don't know what this means until you try and do the clone with your BOTD ghost spear and NO CB. My IK barb kills the clone WAY, WAY faster, and believe me, I fight the clone regularly. I was forced to remove my very high MF war travs and replace them with gore riders just so my ghost spearie could compete with my IK barb in killing speed.

--> IK maul has insane elemental damage. Often times I would whirl through PI's, kill them, and then go "hey, that took a second longer than normal" and realise i'd just butchered a PI. With BOTD, you really, really, really notice PI's, because you have no elemental adders to kill them "accidentally". My biggest pain as a BOTD spearie was a pack of PI mana draining ghosts. With IK, I just whirl through freezing, chilling and killing with elemental damage even though they're PI, cause they have such low life. With BOTD, I HAD to use Berserk, which meant I got mobbed, could only handle one at a time, and in some situations had to drink some potions.

--> IK maul freezes targets. This leads to shattered targets, which means no resurrection, which means you can do away with Nature's Peace. My BOTD barb pretty much HAD to wear Nature's Peace to take on huge packs of ressurecting minions, they were too annoying for words. With the IK set, half of the stuff is smashed, and the rest is immobile (HFT + 2 means you freeze almost everything you encounter except bosspacks).

--> BOTD's "poison nova when you kill an enemy" doesn't activate from deaths caused by WW. thx, gg.

--> No magic find. Whatsoever. IK gives about 100mf almost incidentally from the helm (with ptopaz) and the boots (partial set bonus). If i'd tried to cram MF on my BOTD barb I would have had to give up CoH (bye bye +2 skills/damage to demons/65 resists), boots (bye bye CB/DS), amulet.. you get the idea. MF is pretty much included in the IK set.

--> IK set maxes your resists without even trying. With just a single pt in Nat resists, you pretty much get there once you've equipped the full set. An Annihilus pretty much maxes out the rest of your resists. I don't even want to think of how my BOTD barb would have worked out without CoH, it was pretty essential to getting my resists to max. And CoH is not cheap.



So what was good about my BOTD?

Absolutely insane damage. But that's it. If that's all you want, good for you (BOTD strikes me as extremely well suited to PvP). Oh, the ghost spear looked GREAT on paper for me. But my IK set just added so many crazy bonuses, so many crowd control features, helpful PI things, magic find etc that I ended up regretting the day I ever socketed those runes in that damned ghost spear. A BOTD spearie probably would have been okay if I hadn't already had a IK barb for all my whirling needs. But since I had IK, another whirlbarb was just redundant, and he wasn't even as much fun. He also almost never found any uniques, as opposed to my IK baba for whom things seemed to drop constantly with just 100 MF.

You don't notice all the little things about the set until you don't have them.

Considering that IK armor is about 1000000 times easier to get than a good ethereal BOTD in a godly weapon.. i'd say go with IK every single time, folks. Of course, that's just my opinion, and it's largely based on my experience playing whirlybarbs (and ONLY whirlybarbs) PvM.

Trading away my BOTD Ghost Spear I must have seen some of the stupidest BOTD sockets ever (eg, non ethereal BOTD colossus blade.. BOTD phase blade.. BOTD in exceptional ethereals..). In the end, I sold it to someone who needed it for their merc, and i'm damn glad it's gone.

Feel free to post your experiences here, too.
 

Cold493

Diabloii.Net Member
I agree

I totally I agree I've got an 86 IK ww barb and he rips stuff apart. Only thing that can kill him is IM. IK barb is by far one of the best builds in the game becuase it is fairly cheap compared to other builds and will give you a super good character for low cost.
 

asdfghjkl

Diabloii.Net Member
I suppose IK ww barbs could rip. But from my experience, a ww barb with a botd gp, gt, wp, gs rips just as well, or even better. If you went with a great poleaxe instead of a ghost spear you would not have needed any points allocated to dexterity. There is a thread about this on the same page.

The bonus from the complete set is rather nice, but not the best in my opinion. I find the ogre maul's range pathetic. Crushing blow is definitely a plus for pvm. The bonus elemental and magic damage is also a plus for pvm.

Only reason I would ever make an IK barb is for the aura. It looks mighty sexy.
 
I have a ww barb with eth Tmaul BOTD ; I realy don't have problems killing stuff.

- 400 str
- 140 dex
- 250 vit
- 2.5-14k ww dmg
- 3-15k berserk dmg(1 point)
- 75 res all
- 17k def

I don't regret spending 1 Zod (Vex nearly come for free). I have realy a lot of fun; all the people come with "Wow" or smth like this when I'm in the middle of the cows and killing and not dying.

I'm sure IK set has its advantages, but my Botd makes a lot fun...
 

Dodgy_geezah

Diabloii.Net Member
Thnx frenzied. I think I'm going to have to go remake my IK barb now though. I thought pure zerk would be a clever idea..... WW, always WW. It looks the coolest too. :)
 

tl998

Banned
So WW still is a viable skill tog o in 1.10? Does it work without good equipment like IK set? (I'm ridiculously poor, and can't even do baal mf runs, so no godly itmes for me) That's not to say I wouldn't like to own an IK set tho :lol:
 

Halciet

Diabloii.Net Member
tl998 said:
So WW still is a viable skill tog o in 1.10? Does it work without good equipment like IK set? (I'm ridiculously poor, and can't even do baal mf runs, so no godly itmes for me) That's not to say I wouldn't like to own an IK set tho :lol:
WW is much more item-intensive in 1.10, so you really do need a really good weapon and gear to perform well in hell. Berserkers and Conc barbs don't require high-end gear as badly, by comparison.

-Hal
 

GranHexen

Diabloii.Net Member
hey since you guys are talking about the IK set what did you guys put in the sockets? I finally got the whole set on the ladder but I dont know what to put in it.
 

Cold493

Diabloii.Net Member
For sockets I got two shaels in the weapon to get to the last ww breakpoint, if you can afford 40/15 jewels these would work alot better. In the helm and armor I threw in two 37edjewels and one 40ed jewel seems to work fine for me. You dont need any resists at all with IK set.
 

KaesarSosei

Diabloii.Net Member
I have just started playing my IK Titan and have to report its extremely good. My only problem is vs mana drain and others with Amp Dmg and an aura which can be painful. But these are problems for all melee chars.

I also have NO points in Vit yet still have 1.6k life at level 77 with Max BO. I think by level 85 and with a few better charms I could get to 2k + which is more than enough IMO. I put a couple of 15% IAS/sh1tty other mod jewels in the maul and so far 2 40% ED jewels in the armour and 1 helm. Not sure what to put in the other helm socket yet, but if I find another 40% ED then that will do.

WW dmg is almost 6k max, almost 7k with my level 70 might merc. If my merc gets to level 85 along with me, and I get another nice ED jewel, I think my WW dmg will be 8k+

At the minute I think I will keep my other stat points from lvling up in case I 'chicken-out' and decide to add to Vit :). But so far I have only died once and that was in Act 1 vs Andy and a double boss pack of mana-burn, Might and Amp Damage - ouch! Funny enough, after I went down, the rest of the party seemed to go too...lol

The quick hits of 60IAS WW and the freezing, along with the aura is spectacular too!

But I'm glad to hear that the uber-BOTD is not quite as good as made out.
 
KaesarSosei said:
But I'm glad to hear that the uber-BOTD is not quite as good as made out.
I think that the botd Tmaul that I have is very good.

Anyway, I don't think that the guys here say that the a botd isn't good. They just say that the IK set is better for ww than a botd can be. It could be, but I say that if u ever have the chance to make a good eth BOTD, make it!!! U won't be sorry. The IK set can be found more easily, so if u don't want to run after parts for a botd, get the IK. If not, a BOTD will be better fun; a botd barb can have both 5k life and real high dmg (max and medium).
 

Smackhard

Diabloii.Net Member
Well I've also tasted both sides of the fence. I can't not argue that the IK barb is very very good but he is more killable then my botd barb cause I used a cb instead of a 2 hander.

In my mind the botd barb was and is better then my ik barb. I'll list the reasons.

1. botd barb 50%ll/22%ml, ik barb 18%ll/16%ml
2. botd barb +5 all skills +2 combat, ik barb basicly +6 all. but botd barb has a higher wc with sticks, since you lose +3 skills on ik if you use a weapon switch.
3. botd barb 4k 1h ww, ik barb 4k 2h ww
4. botd barb 4k life/75% block/16k def/50%dr, ik barb 4k life/13k def/20%dr.
5. I still have 30 stats and 6 skills to spend on the botd barb, the ik barb I don't.
6. botd barb has pervent monster heal, ik barb doesn't unless you sacrifice gear.
7. My botd barb could have 200mf and has alot more gear options then my ik barb but I mf'ed with both.
8. Both killed DC at the same speed for me but I would drink less pots with botd barb using concentrate and laying of hands.

Both barbs were built the same. Max mastery, Max WW, Max BO, Max shout. Both have maxed res in hellmode.

Just my 2 bits

Cheers
Smack
 

KaesarSosei

Diabloii.Net Member
Smackhard said:
Well I've also tasted both sides of the fence. I can't not argue that the IK barb is very very good but he is more killable then my botd barb cause I used a cb instead of a 2 hander.

In my mind the botd barb was and is better then my ik barb. I'll list the reasons.

1. botd barb 50%ll/22%ml, ik barb 18%ll/16%ml
2. botd barb +5 all skills +2 combat, ik barb basicly +6 all. but botd barb has a higher wc with sticks, since you lose +3 skills on ik if you use a weapon switch.
3. botd barb 4k 1h ww, ik barb 4k 2h ww
4. botd barb 4k life/75% block/16k def/50%dr, ik barb 4k life/13k def/20%dr.
5. I still have 30 stats and 6 skills to spend on the botd barb, the ik barb I don't.
6. botd barb has pervent monster heal, ik barb doesn't unless you sacrifice gear.
7. My botd barb could have 200mf and has alot more gear options then my ik barb but I mf'ed with both.
8. Both killed DC at the same speed for me but I would drink less pots with botd barb using concentrate and laying of hands.

Both barbs were built the same. Max mastery, Max WW, Max BO, Max shout. Both have maxed res in hellmode.

Just my 2 bits

Cheers
Smack
Sounds good, but your WW dmg with IK seems too low. How much Dex did you put into the BOTD barb? Stick thats straight onto Str and you get a lot more ED...also your BOTD is obviously much better PvP but for PvM using a one hander is a total waste in BOTD (IMO).
 

Smackhard

Diabloii.Net Member
KaesarSosei said:
Sounds good, but your WW dmg with IK seems too low. How much Dex did you put into the BOTD barb? Stick thats straight onto Str and you get a lot more ED...also your BOTD is obviously much better PvP but for PvM using a one hander is a total waste in BOTD (IMO).
I have less base str on my botd barb (around 90) but with gear the str is equal, the botd barb has the benefit of using enigma that gives str based on clvl.

Like I said, I have 30 stats left on my botd barb but none on my ik barb.

Cheers
Smack
 

Venomous_Marci

Diabloii.Net Member
Lol

LMAO..I just sit here reading and laughing at all your posts. In my 3 yrs of playing this game I havent ever found IK armor nor have I ever seen zod or vex drop. It's amazing how everyone and their dog has BOTD weapons or IK set and proclaims the godliness of any given item.

LOL..my level 81 concetration barb (based on Haclet's guide) is stuck in act 1 hell, totally useless and running for his life most of the time. Yes, he is untwinked, ladder and hardcore and he has to fend for himself (no party play for him).
He uses what he has found, which isnt much and that being skullders and headstriker along with rhyme grimshield and handful of rares for crying outloud. If not for deadly strike he might as well be poking monsters with a stick.
I'm sorry, I guess it's just my very sarcastic nature when I look at a thread such as this where weapons are being compared that have no refrence to any average, real player.
Please dont take my comments in any personal way, I dont mean to offend. I just sit here and laugh...IK set great, BOTD ...sweet.
I'd take either one and be happy about it..just my perspective:)
 

Smackhard

Diabloii.Net Member
Venomous_Marci said:
LMAO..I just sit here reading and laughing at all your posts. In my 3 yrs of playing this game I havent ever found IK armor nor have I ever seen zod or vex drop. It's amazing how everyone and their dog has BOTD weapons or IK set and proclaims the godliness of any given item.
Well too bad for you. Both my barbs are softcore ladder, and I have found 2 IK armors in ladder. I also found everything on my botd barb except the ZOD, JAH and BER, those I had to trade for ><.

I would suggest that you build a strong mf character and do some items runs to help your barb.

Cheers
Smack
 

CyberHawk

Diabloii.Net Member
Same here, I've mf for 2 yrs now, never got closer to a IK armor, than thru the trade screen, droolin over the thoughts of my future mace barb.

But Marci..lol, man we were all there once.:) Well hell, i aint where alot of these guys are now, but one day, always, one day.
 
Well, man about not finding good gear. I never did... either. The best I've found were some SS and in the past 1.5 years I've played 8hours a week except for summer time.

But try to use ur mind a little. Look at the game and try to get some profit.

I have a BOTD Tmaul from scratch and also an Enigma. How?

Looked in the trade channel and speculated.

Also got like 70 soj in 1.09, when they were nearly worthless. Now, some people bought them as they thought the D2 clone will appear. I got an Ohm for 14 soj, an Arkaine for 16, a Shaffer for 12 and so on. For the Ohm I got a Jah, a Zod and a Sur. The Zod and the Sur were traded for a Ber.

I got the eth Tmaul cheap in 1.09 when people didn't know much about 1.10 runewords...

See, I have good stuff from nothing. Don't tell me it's not possible.

Either than play I learnt to do good trade.
 
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