Latest Diablo 3 News
DiabloWiki Updates
Support the site! Become a Diablo: IncGamers PAL - Remove ads and more!

pure lightning trapper for hc?

Discussion in 'Hardcore' started by kooshball, Jun 9, 2005.

  1. kooshball

    kooshball IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2005
    Messages:
    38
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    pure lightning trapper for hc?

    hey guys
    im starting up in hc again and i have a summoner necro going and am thinking of starting a trapper assassin. i'm wondering if i should try to get max damage LS and try max out all of its synergies or whether i should use some other skills too. any thoughts?
     
  2. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    4,505
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    466
    Simple view:
    Max LS
    Max DS
    Max CBS
    Max SW
    1 FB
    1 in everything on the shadow tab except venom
    Rest into shadow master

    Some notes:
    -if you can't get ~+10 all skills you might need to pump fade up some more...remember 1 point in fade (skill or not) = 1% DR
    -if you plan on spending time doing nothing but baals shadow warrior > shadow master, as shadow master is often irritating with his mindblast casting and slowing up the run
    -WB does not block ANYTHING when moving (running or walking), it block many things shields don't catch when standing still. I prefer C/C, but C/S is better if you're going to be moving around a lot near things that can hit you. If you go WB you want ~10 after skills, so if you're not getting that from the gear you might need to take some synergy points to cover it
    -Mindblast is the best skill in the game, except on baal runs...if you're not using it constantly when not running baal you're playing wrong. Period.
    -If your gear is quite good, then you can avoid fade as well, BoS speeds up your trap laying speed, and more importantly your speed, so if you can cover the res and the dr while keeping your skills up BoS > fade.

    Going 2 trees with a trapsin is silly, DS is a second element and your merc should be able to get the first body or two for you if there's nothing but LIs on the screen.
     
  3. kooshball

    kooshball IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2005
    Messages:
    38
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    thx for the help. another question si what should i max first? shoudl i max LS first? then the rest of the synergies?
     
  4. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    4,505
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    466
    If you're leeching to baals, go with LS, then DS, then 1 point in the shadow tab stuff, then the synergies. Otherwise just using your skills in the highest level synergy that is available works fine, they're all going to end up maxed or near maxed in the end so it doesn't really matter too much.
     
  5. HCTwinJava

    HCTwinJava IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    328
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    77
    If you play HCL (not SP or non-ladder), you'd be better off if you ignore SW/CBS and max LS + Shadow Master at the same time - first. Once LS + SM are max'ed, work on DS. Once DS is also max'ed, you could choose to either max Fire Blast or SW/CBS. You could max FB even if you are a "pure" lightening trapper. After this skill of your choosing is also max'ed, you're free to boost its synergy or fix other skills as you like.

    You can choose to put l pt in Blade Fury so you won't feel nothing you can do when your traps can't hurt your enemies.


    So, the following would be more appropriate for a HCL player:



    Max LS/SM
    MAX DS
    Max Fire Blast
    rest pts into CBS/SW

    - or -

    Max LS/SM
    MAX DS
    rest pts into CBS/SW

    - optional -
    1 Blade Fury


    If you are "poor", you should go for C/C (dual wielding 2 claws for your asn's entire life after she gets Shadow Warrior).


    If you are "rich" (or not "poor"), you can choose to either go C/C or C/S. your stat point distribution will need to be fixed, based on this choice.


    After you've defeated Hell for the 1st time, aim to have at least +12-15 to your trap skills, and permanent +10 to your shadow skills. When casting SM, aim to temporarily get your shadow skills to as high level as possible.


    A well-built and played trapper is able to solo virtually entire game on HCL, untwinked (= with no trade and with no help from other chars) - only Hell ancients may turn out to be too hard and too dangerous to solo. The best thing is: it won't take you much time to do that (to me, it was just 2 weekends + a few weekdays). That's the beauty of a trapsin for HCL players.

    Wish you best luck!
     
  6. kooshball

    kooshball IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2005
    Messages:
    38
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    the reason i asked whether to max all the synergies is beecuase i have never played a trapsin before and im worried about not doing enough damage in hell if i dont go for max syn. but your suggestions sound good, max LS+SM then DS and rest of synergies.

    btw i am playing HCL and am very poor so i'll have to go with the C/C route, shoudl i worry about blocking at all? does dex help claw blocking? shoudl i use fade or bos?

    thx
     
  7. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    4,505
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    466
    If you're poor, fade all the way...makes getting res so much easier.
    No dex does not help weapon block.

    It's my opinion that the order you do your skills doesn't especially matter, I didn't find myself needing an SM until hell with either of sins...I also wouldn't max SM, get it up to 17 after skills, 17 is picked because that's the level it can spawn with the best weapons it can get, and it'll never die without plenty of time to cast a new one.

    Fireblast is a complete waste of skill points IMO...I had level 23 (1+22 traps) FB with 4 synergies maxed and it was killing stupidly slow. Not slow compared to my traps, just slow.

    Other things:
    - going c/c you should have str+dex as low as possible and the rest into vit...if you're using 2x tucs we're talking something like 50/50/400 give or take a bit
    - 1 point in dragon flight is a good idea. It's a good way to teleport right up to the monster you want dead but is immune to your traps and your merc is opposed to targetting.
    - LR wands break all (or all the important) inherent lightning immunes in the game. Your traps kill ex-LIs slowly as they still have 90+ res, but it is an extra bit of help without having to spend skills to get it
     
  8. Full_Circle

    Full_Circle IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2004
    Messages:
    893
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Aye, Mindblast is good, but why would you spam it constantly in areas where things die faster without it? Sure, there are some places where spamming it may be best, but there are also some where the conversion annoys and slows you down more than it helps.
     
  9. Aerath

    Aerath IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2003
    Messages:
    2,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    255
    If you don't go to plan for perfect gear with this character instantly...

    Aim for 80 str/dex (actually, 79 is all that's required, but I'm a freak for nice numbers...). That'll allow you to wear some decent +3 trap claws, which can be shopbought.
     
  10. HCTwinJava

    HCTwinJava IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    328
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    77
    - Maxing Fire Blast does not imply you will have to use Fire Blast directly.

    It has 2 major uses: 1) help you blast a few guys that your LS can't hurt; 2) it synergizes DS, so that your DS will fire up more times (up to 10 shots like your LS).


    Fire Blast's damage:

    At level 99, with 81 skill pints invested in your trap still tree, and with +15 trap skills (12 to 15 is the minimun that I suggest that you get in the end): Fire Blast does an average of ~3K fire damage to everything in a radius of 3.3 yards.

    OK, even if you can't get to lvl 99 and can only have +12 trap skills: after you invest only 62 trap skills, your Fire Blast will already do 1.6K - 1.9K fire damage in a radius of 3.3 yards.

    Not amazing at all, but it does help your SM/merc to kill a few LI guys in Hell.

    Note: using Fire Blast is just one route for building your trapper. it's not necessary if you choose other routes.




    - Dragon Flight: NO, NO, NO!!!

    It will do three bad things to you:

    1) instantly destroy ALL of your traps that you and your SM took 2 or 3 seconds to have laid.

    2) may very well cause desync, since you play HCL: this means, you know where your asn is on your computer screen, but you DO NOT Know for sure where your asn is on the b-net game server. Once desync'ed, you may get hurt/killed without even knowing who did that!

    3) you'll waste 4 skills for no good use.




    - Mind Blast: do not spam it, especially if you are in a party in a Hell game.

    It has its good use, - that's why you get it. But use it only sparingly and only if necessary, - even in your own solo game. If an asn in my party *spam* mind blast, I could tolerate that and say nothing, but my chars (my own trappers included) could very well hate the asn!

    In contrast to Mind Blast, you are welcome to spam Cload of Shadows however you see fits - all of my chars could very well love your asn if you do so.



    - Shadow Master: The only good reason to stop at base lvl 17 is that you plan to be finished with your asn at about level 75 or 80.

    With base lvl 17, casting SM at 30 or 30+ becomes hard if your asn is untwinked. if you and your small team (merc + SM + your asn) can't get BO or similiar help, Hell Baal is able to kill your SM (if under lvl 30) IN ONE SECOND!



    - if you use C/C, keep your base str/dex no higher than 79/79. If possible, try to keep them as low as ~60 (very hard to do so, if untwinked). This way, you'll have 300 base vita at or shortly after level 65.

    Special note: that does not mean you'll have low ACTUAL str/dex. With the right gear, you can get 150-200 actual str or dex with BASE str/dex = 79/79.

    If played untwinked, low base str/dex do mean 1 thing: you can't use heavy but good stuff. But the question is: do you need them? My untwinked solo HCL asn that I built in 2003 had only ~200 total defense when her traps finally crushed Hell Baal. And, if I recall correctly, half of that defense came from her 2-socket mage plate she started to wear around lvl 30.


    - Low Resist wands

    my own trappers have never used those wands. Why? Those guys whose light immunity can be broken by such wands are most likely NOT your real threats. The solo asn that I mentioned above had +6 shadow skill claws on switch - not a wand.

    However, many have said, go for them!
     
  11. Aerath

    Aerath IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2003
    Messages:
    2,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    255
    Oh...

    As an aside, check the Runewords... things like Stealth and Rhyme are your friends (assuming you go c/s rather than c/c). Lionheart is a great runeword for the cost, and there's a couple other nice options.

    Consider anything that can be obtained from NM countess runs or a NM Hellforge fair game. Slightly higher might become problematic.
     
  12. xeyloderixed

    xeyloderixed IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2003
    Messages:
    1,804
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    spamming mindblast definitely is good in certain areas. the one location where i usually spam it is in the balrog seal in chaos sanc: the balrogs have both high fire and light immunity. your traps (unless you use infinity) will not be able to kill them before your merc/shadow goes down (i would assume any realistic level; my 91 trapper's max shadow still goes down very fast to them)m so spamming mindblast is defnitely a plus.

    generally you should spam mindblast for monsters that are li/high hp. the only other ones i can think of are the mauler types in a5 (when doing shenk runs)

    twinjava: the fireblast synergy for ds is absolutely worthless, when most of the time the monsters are dead even before ds fades away. ds' ce explosion will need a maximum of 2 hits (for non fe monsters) to kill any baddy, and the 5 built in is enough for that. oh, and it's cheap enough to recast anyway.

    lr wands have 2 uses to me: to kill the li thingies (cant remember name) in chaos (you can tell by this post i like a4 :D ), and to lr act bosses. most of the time merc+shadow can kill li baddies faster than lr+traps.

    dragon flight seems dangerous: i've been too chicken to try it. then again, the tele-on-top of li monsters is suicide for my -70 some res all trappers (quested with that amount of res; never died)
     
  13. lCE

    lCE IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2005
    Messages:
    789
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Infinity on merc helps A LOT if u can get it, u will never need to worry about lightning immunes again, if u use a LR wand as well, even the broken immunes (that still have 80% + res) will go down just as fast as anything else. For me, damage is king - so i max all the synergies for LS, use fade with C/C (shael the claws if trap laying speed is slow), i dont understand the need to max shadow master or fireblast, mind blast + HF merc is all the crowd control u really need, and death sentry doesnt really benefit from the synergy, unless u r using it for the lightning damage which u really shouldn't.
     
  14. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    4,505
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    466
    Also spam it on pindle. Why? Because if every single one of his buddies is on your side your traps all target him, makes the kill a bit faster. Only a bit because if they don't all target him then you'll get bodies and DS will clean the rest fast for you, but 5x ls focused on him is faster.

    Also used it a lot running to baal in all difficulties...probably not the safest thing for someone to do in hell, but definitely entertaining...especially if you can do it with 7 sorks sitting in town who refuse to go without bo ^^

    When I say use DF for teleport I mean in areas like RoF where you'll have 3 LIs shooting at you from across a bit of lava while your merc insists on clearing the little maggots or whatever on the other side but your traps insist on firing back at the LIs...that's how I use it. Not like teleport into a large pack of Hulks doing E/S.
     
  15. kooshball

    kooshball IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2005
    Messages:
    38
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    wow im glad this thread really took off. thx for all the help.

    here's couple more questions

    1. where do i get a LR wand? do i buy one? i'm looking for one with charges of LR right?

    2. im level 15 now and dont seem to be doing any damage. my merc is the only thing keeping me alive since i dont have LS yet and only 1 point in the pre reqs. i guess i just have to stick with c/s for now until i get LS pumped up
     
  16. xeyloderixed

    xeyloderixed IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2003
    Messages:
    1,804
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    what i did with my untwinked trapper is to pump cbs all the way until 24 (or at least all that you can spare while having 1 pt in these: bos, shadow warrior). cbs does good enough damage to carry you through a3; you should have ls at a4.

    yes, u can buy lr wands from vendors. if you are like me and are a cheapskate, just id all wands that drop and wait for an lr one (they sell for 35k nearly everytime anyway, and u wont need one till nm a5 for killing baal)
     
  17. PhatTrumpet

    PhatTrumpet IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2003
    Messages:
    4,569
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    255
    CBS is well worth dumping points into early on. Later on it can even kill large single targets, like act bosses, faster than LS. This fact is detailed in the PvM Lightning Trapper guide in the Strategy Compendium I believe. Basically, if you can click elsewhere to lay the first CBS, then hover your cursor right over the boss and place 5 traps right on top of the target, you can get all or nearly all the bolts to really lay into the boss and do some serious damage.
     
  18. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    4,505
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    466
    The fact that it's minion vs act boss negates the possiblity of "serious" damage...but ignoring the word serious then yeah, CBS can make the boss dead faster than LS if you can get/keep them set right.

    Another thing that I feel I should mention is that Holy Freeze is definitely a good choice for a merc for the slowing aspect, but don't take it as a given over a Might merc (or defiance or A5 depending on your preferences). That would be because Holy Freeze mercs can have a habit of making your corpses shatter which is something that can get on a person's nerves rather quickly if it happens a few times in a row at the wrong times.
     
  19. HCTwinJava

    HCTwinJava IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    328
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    77
    Well, I guess you'd agree that there are not many places or situations where MB needs to be spammed. In fact, in those places/situations, before you cast more than 2 or 3 MB, your shadow might have already done a few casts for you, making it unnecessary for you to continue.

    Still, even against Infector of Souls and his company in Hell, if you have a very tough party, you shouldn't cast even ONE MB against them! If you solo Hell Diablo in a more than 1 player Hell game on Ladder, most of the time (not always) your shadow (lvl ~30 assumed) and merc (regardless his/her lvl) will not have a chance against this group for more than a few seconds. That's when and also why you want to cast MB on top of what shadow may have done.



    I guess you'd agree that it's a very strong statement. Have you ever actually built and played a trapsin with max'ed Fire Blast in 1.10?

    Fire Blast has 2 uses. Only 1 of the 2 uses is synergize DS. Max'ed DS with the max'ed Fire Blast synergy is going to be different. It allows you to use a minimal number of DS, so that you can further optimize the overall trap damage (without further optimizing your current trap skills/gear). For example, against a stationary group, 1 DS + 4 LS is now usually enough. Since LS does more L damage than DS, 4 LS does more damage than 3 LS (if you cast 2 DS). For another example, this synergy allows you to more readily leave a DS behind and move forward: in this case, it will do a better job compared to a DS without this FB synergy. (why leave a trap behind for a short while? 1 is to make sure randomly moving monsters won't raid you from behind, 2 is to help take care of those MB-converted monsters. In a public game, this might help you against a PKer on your trail.)

    It is not my experience that "most of the time the monsters are dead even before ds fades away", if that refers to a Hell game in general. if that's indeed your own experience, I can imagine that your trapper was really "passive" and might very well be played in a party most of the time (because you can afford the time waiting on your 5-shot DS for timing out).

    An "actively" played trapsin will cast traps solely based on where and when she needs them. Most LS/DS traps will be gone before they shoot more than a few times - especially in a fast-pace hell game.
     
  20. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    4,505
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    466
    Who plays in parties?
    I soloed the CS from ~80-91 after soloing to get there.
    Playing in parties is a good way to get TPPKed, as unlike in public baals, you actually have to pay some attention to the monsters rather than the cold sork when you're playing through.

    As for FB and DS... having 10 charges in your DS does not make your DS pop corpses any faster, it just makes them pop corpses for a longer duration.
    If you want your damage optimized you will have enough DSs out to keep popping the corpses. Start with 5/0, when the first monster dies go to 4/1. If more than 1 monster dies at the same time go to 3/2. If that causes a few more monsters to die got to 2/3...it's not even wrong to go 0/5 if that's what happens to be available. Just keeping 4/1 the entire fight will start you slower and end you slower because you won't be doing as much initial damage and you won't be doing as much damage as you could as corpses become available.

    Now, could you please explain:
    I agree with the first quoted statement, which is why I feel FB is a complete and utter waste of skill points...in a fast paced game you'll be at a new spot with new monsters with 5 new traps out before the previous traps have expired. Or you'll be standing in the same spot in baal's throne casting 5 new LS (as there won't be any corpses for your DS to pop when the new wave first comes out).
    However the second quoted statement seems to be in direct contradiction with that sentiment. Obviously your mind is quite split on the subject or I am misreading something somewhere. If the latter is the case, please feel free to explain.
     

Share This Page