(Project related) I need your opinion!

Treeharl

Diabloii.Net Member
Moddisclaimer: I created this tread due to not going offtopic at my other project related topics.

I am in need of your opinion on various subjects. I am sure nearly everyone has heard of my "little project" as an attempt creating a balanced patch. I have created a tread about several sugestions on Rare and Magic items and some helpfull advise came in by various members. Well lets move on to the checklist.

1 Ban Mal runes from the game. A very simple change where I increase the requiered level of Mal runes to level 100. This disables several runewords including three broken ones, CtA, Grief and Infinity. Whenever such an item returns to 1.13c the level req is normal and the item can be used aigain. I won't disable Mal runes from dropping however.

2 Nerf Ber runes by reducing the CB% to 10 and the dr% to 4.

3 Enable more automods on various base items, for example staves and other unused items. (An example of an automod is the allresist on white pala shields). Automods are fully revertable to 1.13c

4 Increase the defense of several elite items to match their requirements. (For example changing the max defense of a sacred armor to 700 instead of 603)

5 Enable rare charms. Although I was very sceptical about rare charms being ever balanced there is a posebility creating a heavely nerfed prefix and aflix pool so rare charms could have a place in the game. I am not sure however if rare charms should exist at all or not.

6 Creating expensive cube receipes to downgrade HRs.

Thanks in advance,

Treeharl
 

helvete

Diabloii.Net Member
Characters can never go back from ANY mod. If you use the ladder runeword mod, nothing you find, no character you play will ever be vanilla again. Same as an expansion character can't go back to classic even if all items are left behind. As soon as someone plays a character in a mod, that character and any item which followed it is considered part of that mod, so there is no reason at all to try and make things compatible. Even if it is possible, it will still not be allowed here.

About downgrading HRs, the recipe could be "any rune + scroll of TP = next lower rune". One rune becomes one rune, not several.
 

D.J.

Diabloii.Net Member
I was about to say the same thing.
No need to push yourself trying to make anything compatible if then it's not accepted here.

1 Medium Gem + 1 Rune -> 1 Rune of lower tier?

I don't know about the Mal runes being unusable. I'd go for "buff before nerfs" honestly

EDIT: Rare charms just add another level of complexity to the balance, IMHO charms are fine as they are
 

Treeharl

Diabloii.Net Member
@helvete what you say is entirely true at this point. I still would like to discuss with you (in my balance tread or in my development tread due to avoid going offtopic here) if I am creating a "patch or a mod". The main question about downgrading is if it should exist at all or is it a stupid idea making certain HR's too common. Ofcourse the receipy will be more expensive than just a Tp scroll. I was thinking more about Lo + Gul + Tp scroll ---> Ohm.

@D.J. I agree with buffs above nerfs, still several things need to be nerfed so other things become more usefull. Rare charms are indeed complex to balance.

Still awaiting more personal opinions on the other subjects.
 

BlizzBallerSorc

Diabloii.Net Member
I guess the catch is that I think nerfing does create more balance, but I don't think it would persuade people to play a mod. We have plenty of people who impose restrictions on their own: I've seen people who don't play RW mod, those who don't use any RWs at all, and even those who don't use any RWs, sets, uniques--they only use rares. So I think nerfing does create balance, but this sort of balance can be duplicated to some extent by just self-imposing certain restrictions on the game.

In fact, it seems the reason most people play past patches is in order to capitalize on the elements nerfed in later versions: CtA, 1.07 eth bases, etc.--not vice versa.

So if you wanted to make an appealing mod, it might do better to make some elements of the game more appealing, like rares, which you mentioned. It might be more interesting to cull some of the useless mods from spawning on certain rares. For example, if rare weapons had a smaller pool of mods to draw from, making it more likely that something useful like high ED, IAS and even add some like CB--then you might have more interest.

[Deleted last sentence because I see other thread was shut down for discussing mods. I don't play any mods beyond fam, nor have I ever. @Thyiad, I hope my posting in this thread in the first place was OK, since it only discusses theoretically non FAM mods; if not, I'll delete rest of post!]
 
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Treeharl

Diabloii.Net Member
@BlizzBallerSorc Don't worry as Thyiad allowed the discussion about the subject. The only restriction from his side is that items found on my patch can't be reverted to vanilla. That is indeed a good idea you posted, if you checked my development tread you could have read the fact that I nerfed set items already.

About that other thing I was just silly not reading a sticky and posting too much information about something that wasn't allowed. But that hadn't to do anything related to the "balance patch or mod" I am creating.
 

pharphis

Diabloii.Net Site Pal
Just here to agreeing that too many nerfs make the game less appealing. I'm all for buffing skills and uniques to make more interesting end-game builds (and progression seeing as most uniques are useless).

In other words, buff FoH (0.5 sec or slightly slower casting than other pally skills w/o any cooldown)

Not sure nerfing griffon's to 15% is reasonable since it (I think) reduces the flexibility of some builds. 20% matches circlets at least. *shrug*

I also think just lowering the proc chance for lifetap on drac's might be more balanced while still making the gloves a useful option for very fast attackers (I don't ever use it personally - just to show no bias here)

Yooo mang song's = broken :p

Also I like the dragonscale changes as well as most of them that make some items and builds more viable (throw barb!?)
 

Treeharl

Diabloii.Net Member
@pharphis I am not sure atm if I will touch character skills for now, The problem is FoH for example is already very strong at certain area's (Tal tombs for example) and useless at others (Try a pit run with your FoH pala pharphis and tell me about the results! :O)

Ironically Mang songs is still less powerfull as the combination HoTO+ Spirit. Atleast it becomes slightly usefull now. Bear in mind it still has that 82 level req and it doesn't provide any resistances. About Griphon the main sellingpoint is the extra lightning and pierce, using Griffon now has a slight drawback that it doesn't provide as much cast as before. In all seriousness these numbers aren't definitive and are subject to change.

Also please tell me how a throw barb can wield a Zakarum Shield. That would be an awesome barb if he could :).

Next part of the changelog follows tomorow at my development tread.

Edit: To many typo's because of Griffon nerf.
 

MYK

Diablo: IncGamers Member
Moddisclaimer: I created this tread due to not going offtopic at my other project related topics.

I am in need of your opinion on various subjects. I am sure nearly everyone has heard of my "little project" as an attempt creating a balanced patch. I have created a tread about several sugestions on Rare and Magic items and some helpfull advise came in by various members. Well lets move on to the checklist.

1 Ban Mal runes from the game. A very simple change where I increase the requiered level of Mal runes to level 100. This disables several runewords including three broken ones, CtA, Grief and Infinity. Whenever such an item returns to 1.13c the level req is normal and the item can be used aigain. I won't disable Mal runes from dropping however.

2 Nerf Ber runes by reducing the CB% to 10 and the dr% to 4.

3 Enable more automods on various base items, for example staves and other unused items. (An example of an automod is the allresist on white pala shields). Automods are fully revertable to 1.13c

4 Increase the defense of several elite items to match their requirements. (For example changing the max defense of a sacred armor to 700 instead of 603)

5 Enable rare charms. Although I was very sceptical about rare charms being ever balanced there is a posebility creating a heavely nerfed prefix and aflix pool so rare charms could have a place in the game. I am not sure however if rare charms should exist at all or not.

6 Creating expensive cube receipes to downgrade HRs.

Thanks in advance,

Treeharl
#1: That's a "big hammer" solution to those problems and doesn't necessarily address other offenders (in my opinion). Nay.
#2: Is anyone really loading up on Ber runes in any capacity? Nay.
#3: That could be reasonable, depending on what the automods are. Staves are almost the reason for this change, imo, because they're very underpowered compared to weapon/shield setups. Yay.
#4: Mercs are strong enough already. (Who else wears a SA?) Nay.
#5: I already don't find charms terribly interesting. Neutral vote.
#6: Why expensive? Transmuting down, even if cheap to cube, is already expensive because you don't get that rune back and it's going to take a second to cube upwards again.

Props to even posting about your mod in such a mod averse community. Keep that fire alive.
 

Treeharl

Diabloii.Net Member
@MYK thanks alot for sharing, much apreachiated. Still brainstorming about some subjects however. I can already tell that #1 and #2 aren't needed anymore as I already decided they are both nay's.

@all Be sure to checkout my development topic as I will post changelogs there rather than in this trade. New partial runeword changelog is up!
 

pharphis

Diabloii.Net Site Pal
@pharphis I am not sure atm if I will touch character skills for now, The problem is FoH for example is already very strong at certain area's (Tal tombs for example) and useless at others (Try a pit run with your FoH pala pharphis and tell me about the results! :O)

Ironically Mang songs is still less powerfull as the combination HoTO+ Spirit. Atleast it becomes slightly usefull now. Bear in mind it still has that 82 level req and it doesn't provide any resistances. About Griphon the main sellingpoint is the extra lightning and pierce, using Griffon now has a slight drawback that it doesn't provide as much cast as before. In all seriousness these numbers aren't definitive and are subject to change.

Also please tell me how a throw barb can wield a Zakarum Shield. That would be an awesome barb if he could :).

Next part of the changelog follows tomorow at my development tread.

Edit: To many typo's because of Griffon nerf.
I was ambiguously referring to wraith flight when i mentioned throw barbs :p

Pit would be less efficient than AT for a FoHer (I think) but not horribly so, because there are still undead enemies, and devilkin or whatever else is in there should have low HP compared to the marauders or whatever the reed things are called in AT (I can't believe I don't know this). Of course, this is only talking about unique monsters and not entire bosspacks.
*shrug*. I'm biased ofc but FoH is one of those skills that simply is not used by anyone, and I think if you're aiming for balance (and presumably diversity of builds) that FoH buff as well as other skill buffs would go a long way towards more interest in using them as well as interest in trying the mod altogether.

Ya no res hurts mang song's a lot but I agree that it could see some slight use against something like pindle where you don't EVER plan to get hit.

Also, I think a more reasonable ber rune nerf if you deem it necessary is to nerf it to 15/5 instead of 10/4. Seems practically useless at that point (as a rune on it's own) while still nerfing the OP runewords that use it a pinch.
 

Treeharl

Diabloii.Net Member
@pharphis checkout my development tread for some examples of OP runeword nerfs. I thought about the concept of nerfing bers as posted here, but after a brainstorm and MYK's post that nerf goes to the trashpile. I was a bit filled with sarcasm as pits are nearly the worst area for a foh related character. Even CS would probally get you more results as the pits for a Foh'er. Ontopic: Anyways #3 will be implimented and #1,#2,#5 can go to the trashbin and #4 and #6 i am still undecided about. Do you have an idea prehaps Pharphis?
 

Brak

Diabloii.Net Member
to fix FoH you just need to make the holy bolts heal your party
rest of it is pointless really
 

pharphis

Diabloii.Net Site Pal
to fix FoH you just need to make the holy bolts heal your party
rest of it is pointless really
*gasps for air but dies*

The holy bolts deal decent dmg if you know how to use it (against undead unique monsters). The thing is that if the monster is approaching you (aka not in hitstun or attacking) then they walk into at least one holy bolt (the one that shoots towards the caster). I use this strat all the time when running AT. I don't think healing would be that useful tbh but it would be interesting.
 

pharphis

Diabloii.Net Site Pal
@pharphis checkout my development tread for some examples of OP runeword nerfs. I thought about the concept of nerfing bers as posted here, but after a brainstorm and MYK's post that nerf goes to the trashpile. I was a bit filled with sarcasm as pits are nearly the worst area for a foh related character. Even CS would probally get you more results as the pits for a Foh'er. Ontopic: Anyways #3 will be implimented and #1,#2,#5 can go to the trashbin and #4 and #6 i am still undecided about. Do you have an idea prehaps Pharphis?
I agree with 4 as it makes more def-heavy builds at least slightly more viable (as long as you can make a good runeword with sacred armors.. like fortitude or that other one that gives repair per sec or something).

For 6, I don't think the recipe needs to be that expensive. I saw the suggestion of ~gul to downgrade a rune and I think that's about the upper limit for what should be required to downgrade a really high rune (say zod). Then you can work backwards one at a time to figure out what the smallest rune is that you can break down further. I just don't see much point in making it too expensive (ex sur rune to downgrade cham to jah I think is excessive) but *shrug* it's fairly minor overall
 

Brak

Diabloii.Net Member
*gasps for air but dies*

The holy bolts deal decent dmg if you know how to use it (against undead unique monsters). The thing is that if the monster is approaching you (aka not in hitstun or attacking) then they walk into at least one holy bolt (the one that shoots towards the caster). I use this strat all the time when running AT. I don't think healing would be that useful tbh but it would be interesting.
I was kidding. But also referencing by horribly failed Thornadin back in the day when Thorns actually could kill monsters. I traded for all this CTC when hit gear, named him HitMePlz and was all ready to be a genius FoHing targets with dense mobs behind me and soaking up the holy bolts. Then they all just flew right threw me, and I got really mad at the bogus skill description.
 
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