Pride vs Infinity

davel

Diabloii.Net Member
Pride vs Infinity

Stop me if someone has already done this...

THE IDEA

I've always used Infinity for my Summoners merc but with all the talk about Pride vs Infinity I've decided to make Pride and do some un-bias testing.

I love the necromancer and have ever since the first day the game hit the stores. I've played most versions but love the summoner the most and would only feel comfortable giving advise on this build. For me a summoner is the most versitile build being able to do everything in the game well.

The point in a summoners merc is to aid the army with his auras, hit hard to get the first few corpses for skels or corpse Exlposion, and Provide Crushing Blow for Bosses. The merc's equiptment must meet this criteria while keeping him alive.

The tests themsleves will be broken up into the catagories; leveling, questing, and Boss Killing. I'd love any suggestions for testing. however; my skills and equiptment are set. With the exception of Pride, I've tried almost every different summoner build and equiptment trying to find the most efficient in speed of killing, survivablility and versitility. This build is it. Also, this is purely for end top of the line gear.

THE GEAR

Lvl 92 necro

Shako
Maras
Enigma
BKx2
Arachnid
Trangs Gloves
Waterwalk Boots*
weapon1
Spirit/ 6-6-1 CtA
weapon2
Eld'd Stormshield/Hoto**
Invintory
Troch, anni, SCs with life and resists***

*Huge life gain and +5% max fire res. These could be changed for something else.
**Beast is in inventory for boss killing/baals minons in multiplayer games.
***I no longer use +skillGCs, I use Life w/ Res SCs instead. You're main killing comes from Corpse Exploison so a +5 or 6 Skill difference in skells isn't going to make much a difference with this gear. Having max+++ resists and a HUGE amount of life for a summoner is noticeable. I have done both, life is more valuable than Skills. If I were HELLA rich and could fill my inventory with 41+life skillers I would.

I once used AoKL and Homu to summon then switched to Wiz(to tele) with Beast and Stormshield on switch for when you made it where you were going, but have found this settup to be much much more simple. It doesnt noticeably slow your skels down, you can summon/BO on the fly without changing weapons, you make the 75frc breakpoint and get to tele with max block and full (50%)damage reduction.

I have tried the nec ammy, AoKL, Homu/head, skill charms, nec circlet. this works better. Even with the extra damage of Pride, a +skills build is still not better.

Skills
20 Skel
20 SMastery
20 Mages(yes, with or without Infinity they are well well worth it)
1 in rest of summons except for Fire Golem. (Sparky has no place in a Summoners Army)
1 all curses
+/-15 in Corpse Explosion(hits 13 yard radius which covers almost the whole screen)
rest in Bone Wall for Bone Armor Synergy


Merc Gear

Infinity build
Andariels(would be eth if I could find it)
Eth Fortitued
Eth Infinity CV

This setup lists over 10,000 defence, 1500-10,000 damage, 4,000 BO'd life, 9 life leech, 75/75/80/85 resists and 40% Crushing Blow and +2 skills for might.(without beast)

This has proved to be the best setup to use with Infinity

Pride build

To have Crushing Blow and Life leech we now have to change armor and helm.

help needed here

Guillaume's Face
Eth CoH
Eth Pride CV

Now I don't have a CoH so before I make one can someone verify this is the best merc settup with Pride. It must have Life Leech and Good Crushing blow. The other option I can think of is eth Duress and Crown of Theives, which I have If it's agreed as a better choice though I don't think it is with only 15% Crushing Blow.

Whichever the Pride Gear, the Infinity Gear DOES make the merc far more goddly which isn't the question. The question is will it make the army as a whole better. With the Infinity Gear I don't even bother summoning an army if I'm doing a quest for someone. The merc is fast enough to take down enough corpses for Corpse Explosion in an 8 player game to clear any area(save the Baal Waves) in no time, eg. Nithilak or save Anya. Will Pride make an army faster at killing than Infinity. Lets find out.


THE TESTS

I'd love input and ideas here for the tests. How many times should the test be repeated?

For leveling I propose I time killing the baal waves with each equiptment settup and a full army.

For bosses I'll time killing Baal with each equiptment settup and a full army.

And for questing I'll time running Nithilak, which i think is a good eg. because the predictable maps and boss with a group of monsters at the end. This will be timed from starting in town without an army and tested with raising an army and without.

So what do you guys think? Or am I wasiting my time and it's been done already? BTW I'm sure to have made some mistakes so please point them out.
 

KavikKang

Diabloii.Net Member
Stop me if someone has already done this...

THE IDEA

I've always used Infinity for my Summoners merc but with all the talk about Pride vs Infinity I've decided to make Pride and do some un-bias testing.

I love the necromancer and have ever since the first day the game hit the stores. I've played most versions but love the summoner the most and would only feel comfortable giving advise on this build. For me a summoner is the most versitile build being able to do everything in the game well.

The point in a summoners merc is to aid the army with his auras, hit hard to get the first few corpses for skels or corpse Exlposion, and Provide Crushing Blow for Bosses. The merc's equiptment must meet this criteria while keeping him alive.

The tests themsleves will be broken up into the catagories; leveling, questing, and Boss Killing. I'd love any suggestions for testing. however; my skills and equiptment are set. With the exception of Pride, I've tried almost every different summoner build and equiptment trying to find the most efficient in speed of killing, survivablility and versitility. This build is it. Also, this is purely for end top of the line gear.

THE GEAR

Lvl 92 necro

Shako
Maras
Enigma
BKx2
Arachnid
Trangs Gloves
Waterwalk Boots*
weapon1
Spirit/ 6-6-1 CtA
weapon2
Eld'd Stormshield/Hoto**
Invintory
Troch, anni, SCs with life and resists***

*Huge life gain and +5% max fire res. These could be changed for something else.
**Beast is in inventory for boss killing/baals minons in multiplayer games.
***I no longer use +skillGCs, I use Life w/ Res SCs instead. You're main killing comes from Corpse Exploison so a +5 or 6 Skill difference in skells isn't going to make much a difference with this gear. Having max+++ resists and a HUGE amount of life for a summoner is noticeable. I have done both, life is more valuable than Skills. If I were HELLA rich and could fill my inventory with 41+life skillers I would.

I once used AoKL and Homu to summon then switched to Wiz(to tele) with Beast and Stormshield on switch for when you made it where you were going, but have found this settup to be much much more simple. It doesnt noticeably slow your skels down, you can summon/BO on the fly without changing weapons, you make the 75frc breakpoint and get to tele with max block and full (50%)damage reduction.

I have tried the nec ammy, AoKL, Homu/head, skill charms, nec circlet. this works better. Even with the extra damage of Pride, a +skills build is still not better.

Skills
20 Skel
20 SMastery
20 Mages(yes, with or without Infinity they are well well worth it)
1 in rest of summons except for Fire Golem. (Sparky has no place in a Summoners Army)
1 all curses
+/-15 in Corpse Explosion(hits 13 yard radius which covers almost the whole screen)
rest in Bone Wall for Bone Armor Synergy


Merc Gear

Infinity build
Andariels(would be eth if I could find it)
Eth Fortitued
Eth Infinity CV

This setup lists over 10,000 defence, 1500-10,000 damage, 4,000 BO'd life, 9 life leech, 75/75/80/85 resists and 40% Crushing Blow and +2 skills for might.(without beast)

This has proved to be the best setup to use with Infinity

Pride build

To have Crushing Blow and Life leech we now have to change armor and helm.

help needed here

Guillaume's Face
Eth CoH
Eth Pride CV

Now I don't have a CoH so before I make one can someone verify this is the best merc settup with Pride. It must have Life Leech and Good Crushing blow. The other option I can think of is eth Duress and Crown of Theives, which I have If it's agreed as a better choice though I don't think it is with only 15% Crushing Blow.

Whichever the Pride Gear, the Infinity Gear DOES make the merc far more goddly which isn't the question. The question is will it make the army as a whole better. With the Infinity Gear I don't even bother summoning an army if I'm doing a quest for someone. The merc is fast enough to take down enough corpses for Corpse Explosion in an 8 player game to clear any area(save the Baal Waves) in no time, eg. Nithilak or save Anya. Will Pride make an army faster at killing than Infinity. Lets find out.


THE TESTS

I'd love input and ideas here for the tests. How many times should the test be repeated?

For leveling I propose I time killing the baal waves with each equiptment settup and a full army.

For bosses I'll time killing Baal with each equiptment settup and a full army.

And for questing I'll time running Nithilak, which i think is a good eg. because the predictable maps and boss with a group of monsters at the end. This will be timed from starting in town without an army and tested with raising an army and without.

So what do you guys think? Or am I wasiting my time and it's been done already? BTW I'm sure to have made some mistakes so please point them out.
I have always used Pride, and if I simply switch Pride for Infinity on my nec my army because hobbled. Very noticeably weaker, Pride is far better for your army than Infinity. But you will want +skills, since Pride will modify the base damage of the skeles by around 300% you want their base damage to be as high as possible.

Also, if you aren't going to use Bramble then Fort would be the next choice for armor. Pride has no ED, Fort will give it 300 ed... it will be like your Pride has 300ed. I've actually never liked Beast for a nec, the radius is too small and most of your army will not be within range to benefit from it.

If you build a summon nec right with Pride you'll find that you almost never use CE because the Skeles kill everything so fast using CE is like a waste of effort on your part.



 

Zarniwoop

Diabloii.Net Member
Do you guys use insight iron golems then? Or gumby and pots. I detest teleing around without an insight merc. And I just dont want to imagine life without gumby slows.
 

KavikKang

Diabloii.Net Member
Do you guys use insight iron golems then? Or gumby and pots. I detest teleing around without an insight merc. And I just dont want to imagine life without gumby slows.
I actually use a fire golem with my MF nec. I put 25 points into energy, so that my energy is 50 unmodified. I might drink one potion a week from teleing.



 

davel

Diabloii.Net Member
Do you guys use insight iron golems then? Or gumby and pots. I detest teleing around without an insight merc. And I just dont want to imagine life without gumby slows.
Yes I use Insight IGs unlesss I'm planning on running the ubers. He dies sometimes but if you just keep an eye out for the materials while playing you'll have a surplus of Insights.

Kavikang, you have no idea what you are talking about, please stop giving advise. I know Skels are great but even at lvl 50 the is no possible way for your Skels to kill as fast as Corpse Explosion, none. You Put Points into energy???? You magic find with a Fire Golem???? and unless I missed Something, how am I to get Life Leech and Crushing Blow on my merc using either Bramble(which is a bad choice to start with) or Fort?? You don't like beast???

Now I'm not saying Pride is a bad choice which is why I'm going to do this testing.



 

DamianM

Diabloii.Net Member
Heh im finishing getting the items for my summoning necro and i just found a eth 4 os cryptic axe in hell chaos, so i think im making pride with it.
 

bogie

Diabloii.Net Member
I have always used Pride, and if I simply switch Pride for Infinity on my nec my army because hobbled. Very noticeably weaker, Pride is far better for your army than Infinity. But you will want +skills, since Pride will modify the base damage of the skeles by around 300% you want their base damage to be as high as possible.

Also, if you aren't going to use Bramble then Fort would be the next choice for armor. Pride has no ED, Fort will give it 300 ed... it will be like your Pride has 300ed. I've actually never liked Beast for a nec, the radius is too small and most of your army will not be within range to benefit from it.

If you build a summon nec right with Pride you'll find that you almost never use CE because the Skeles kill everything so fast using CE is like a waste of effort on your part.
Actually, your estimates for your merc damage and how pride effects skele damage is quite a bit off.

The 300% ed on Fort WILL NOT act as ed% on pride as you think, the 345% ed from concentration and the 300% from fort will add together, and then together effect the weapon. Lets say your merc is using a Pride CA, if its eth, your merc will have....... 45-225 damage weapon, lets say he also has 150 strength, with all of the other +ed% off wep gear, you will have 745% + 150% strength + 200% might = about 1000%, so you take your little waheeds weapon and multiply it by 11,
So, your mercs total damage is....
495-2475, rather pathetic when we compare to infinity, which would be.....
650% off wep ed, 340% on wep ed,
1500-7425 damage, over triple the damage, considering that a maxed CE has a radius > the screen, godly merc + CE = no need for higher damage skeles.

Pride DOES effect the final damage of your skeles, but it DOES NOT modify the base damage before other ed% as you seem to think. Pride simply stacks with other ed% for your skeles, and then that final number is multiplied out with your skeles base damage to reach final damage. Your skele damage with owing to the fact that skeles have an inherent ed% of 257% at lvl 20, this means that ed% works a lot less on skeles than it does on your merc.
So in conclusion, pride does NOTHING to help out your skele's base damage, only their final damage, your rigth, you do want your skeles base damage as high as possible, but theres no way to increase it besides +skills.

Not to mention all of those negative mods on pride like..... automatic freezing of enemies (no corpses for CE and minions), blind enemies (overwrites your own curse) and others.

In conclusion, infinity is far better than pride as it increases your kill speed in huge amounts, theres no need for 2k+ damage skeles when 1.4k+ damage skeles and a 4k+ avg damage merc + sick CE will do better, with infinity, your CE will be increased to INSANE amounts with conviction and amp, and with a screen large radius, you will be able to take out literally SCREENS in the time to take about 2-3 casts.

INFINITY FTW

Bogie,

Edit: Damian, 4os eth cryptic axes go for alot, and pride is only marginally useful compared to infinty, so I would place an infinity in there instead, especially because infinity goes for more tradewise in a Eth CA as well :prop:



 

DamianM

Diabloii.Net Member
why is infinity better? i think the conc from pride would help my skeles and revives a ****load more.
 

gorf

Diabloii.Net Member
I just aquired a Pride in order to exactly this. My intent is to time baal runs, nihl runs and some random clear, probably the pits.

@davel please don't flame dude. I also don't agree with many of KavikKang's ideas, but who cares how he wants to play. More power to him. Why don't you two give each other demos of your necros, so you can actually have a discussion point. More than anything else, both of your discussion style is the problem. You both say "My way is THE way" when really, there is no difinitive best way to play. After all, a skelemancer can solo baal naked...
 

omgwtfbbqpwned

Diabloii.Net Member
If I had a choice I'd prolly make Infinity.

No Bramble is not the best armor for your mercenary. The Thorns Aura really doesn't do much.
 

compubuy

Diabloii.Net Member
Why not use both? Make an Infinity Iron Golem out of a 4 sock Voulge and max Golem Mastery instead of CE, which will end up at level 10 (enough).

20 SM
20 RS
20 RSM
20 GM
10 CE
1 Iron Golem
1 Revive
1 Into each curse.

Make your golem at a level 50 plus Golem Mastery (easy to do and actually can go higher).

At level 50 Golem Mastery, your Infinity Golem will have nearly 11K hitpoints, enough to nullify 1 hit Iron Maiden deaths by a long shot since you created him out of a low damage weapon.
Although you'd HAVE to have enigma to keep him close, but with all his hitpoints he should survive just about anything PVM.
Although it's a shame you can't teach the dumbell how to cast the cyclone charges.
 

bogie

Diabloii.Net Member
Infinity Iron Golem + Owning Pubs = Bad Idea

Id make one, but for the fact that I love dueling with my necro and couldnt stand ever losing him to some pubbie........
 

DamianM

Diabloii.Net Member
can someone tell me what merc is the best? i heard you should use a nm act 2 offensive. i got one but i dont see the might aura anywhere.
 

bogie

Diabloii.Net Member
Dont worry, you have the correct merc, the might aura only activates after he has had the chance to hit/kill a few monsters, and even then its all up to chance.

Just let him wack a few monsters and he should have his aura out in no time.

Bogie,
 

Silent Shaddow

Diabloii.Net Member
if u plan on making a pride merc then put it in a low dmg weapon, he just becomes an aura slave, use nithy potral for inital skellies and dont worry about its low dmg, this way ur merc wont be doing much prodding and so the -ve effects arent 'felt'
 

GotFriana

Diabloii.Net Member
im still not sure whether i should use pride or infinity.
In simple terms what Pride will do is increase your melee skelleton s damage, it will not increase your Necro's CE damage and your merc's damage will be at a decent range, Pride also has some chance to cast effects like hit blinds target that may overide your own curses, and has hit freezes target that may shatter some corpses which can be annoying at times, but in genereal these aren t effects that will affect you too much.
On the other side what Infinity will do is reduce enemies' defense, reduce enemies' resistances to elements, and your merc's damage will be much higher than with a Pride weapon not to mention the 40% chance of crushing blow that is allways good to have on a merc. This will help your mages damage and your CE damage and your melee army will find things easier to hit (but usually they dont have problems hitting things anyways).

To end with, I think the decision is between more damage to your skeletons or more damage for your elemental attacks including CE so it may depend also on your play stile and number of players you usually play with, if you use mages or just have them as backup or if you are active on spamming CE and cursing. With Pride you should have those first corpses faster and your melee army should finish enemies faster by themselves, with Infinity it may take just a little bit longer to start the CE chain reaction but it will be more effective. I think both options are valid, but personally I d go for an Infinity.



 

DamianM

Diabloii.Net Member
hmm i think im going to make infinity then, thanks for all the help. oh and if my merc has crushing blow does it count for my skeles too? and why does infinity cause CE to do more damage?
 

DamianM

Diabloii.Net Member
wait a second...would the concentration from pride cancel the might from merc if it was stronger or would they stack?
 
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