"Pride" or "Infinity" for my Summoner ?

Frosty_The_Snowman

Diabloii.Net Member
"Pride" or "Infinity" for my Summoner ?

Hey there :howdy: !

I have a pure Summoner (Skeletons only, no Mages, no Revives) with Max Corpse Explosion. The only curse I use is Amplify Damage.

I was planning to give my merc a "Pride" weapon, so my Skeletons can hit harder with the Concentration aura. Since I don't have built this weapon yet, I've given him an "Infinity", and to my surprise, it seems to be working quite well :

- Half of the damage of Corpse Explosion is Fire Damage, so Infinity helps.
- The defense of the monsters is reduced by the Conviction aura.
- 40% of CB takes Baal down really quickly, it's a bit the melee version of Static Field.

What do you think guys ? Should I stick with my "Infinity" or should I begin to build this "Pride" weapon ? Will it really make a big difference in comparison to "Infinity" ?

I have some spare points, so I can get +1 to Revives. It could be a good idea since most of Monsters now have elemental damage, so Infinity could shine even more with Revives (and possibly some Mages with the +1 prerequisite).

What do you think about it :scratch: ?
 

FrozenSolid

Diabloii.Net Member
I dont have any experiences with any of these rws but Id say go with Infinity. It has more pros than pride and if youre going to spam CEs you dont need to have "Pride" high dmg for your skellies. And like you said, cb for boss fights is all around great.
 

Frosty_The_Snowman

Diabloii.Net Member
FrozenSolid said:
I dont have any experiences with any of these rws but Id say go with Infinity. It has more pros than pride and if youre going to spam CEs you dont need to have "Pride" high dmg for your skellies. And like you said, cb for boss fights is all around great.
Indeed, Corpse Explosion is my primary killing skill. As soon as a corpse lies on the ground, I spam CE like crazy until nothing around is still alive :D. So, one point for Infinity.

CB is really nice too, indeed. I'll try to boost it up a bit again, with Duress for example. Dunno if it will make a hugh difference though, my Merc already wears an etheral CoH Sacred Armor, and he likes the extra Resistances / LL.
 

Myrakh-2

Diabloii.Net Member
Frosty_The_Snowman said:
my Merc already wears an etheral CoH Sacred Armor, and he likes the extra Resistances / LL.
Give him a cracked leather armor and he'll "I'll put that to good use" it as well... and actually start to wear it, instead of just throwing it back in your face.
 

Decebal

Diabloii.Net Member
Make a Commando mancer!

Beast + Bramble + Pride + might merc = DESTRUCTION!

IMO Infinity is better for a Javazon...and you know why! ;)

/Dec
 

Chimaira

Diabloii.Net Member
I'd use Pride. CE is already very powerful, so it's better with Concentration to get your corpses faster.
 

Doll Call

Diabloii.Net Member
summoner = pride > infinity

pride on your might merc turns your skelletons mad... throw a beast into the mix and there awesome.
 

Pherdnut

Diabloii.Net Member
I'm fairly certain 15 skeletons prebuffed from level 49 mastery and RS with Pride, Faith, Oath HoW, and Might at 24 from your merc will kill bosses faster than any other build in the game. Get as many damage increase auras as you can if you can afford them. Conviction would only be interesting if you were using mages and even then Pride would give you a lot more physical damage than Infinity would help your mages do in elemental damage.
 

HarbingersOfSkulls

Diabloii.Net Member
My Summoner/Commando merc waheed uses a pride...and I've found it to be better off than infinity...which I just put on my wind druid for now.

HoS
 

Cdnexpat

Diabloii.Net Member
It seems Pride is better if you go without mages, how about if you go with 20 in skeles and in mages. I was thinking of using a full house of mages and reviving what ever was on the ground. I find I never really have the "right" revive available for where I am but I thought if I went with a lot of them with Infinity would help them out. I am even contemplating using lower resist instead of amp when I have a lot of summons that deal in elemental damage? Is this a bad idea?
 

Frosty_The_Snowman

Diabloii.Net Member
Pherdnut said:
I'm fairly certain 15 skeletons prebuffed from level 49 mastery and RS with Pride, Faith, Oath HoW, and Might at 24 from your merc will kill bosses faster than any other build in the game. Get as many damage increase auras as you can if you can afford them. Conviction would only be interesting if you were using mages and even then Pride would give you a lot more physical damage than Infinity would help your mages do in elemental damage.
Since I'm only using Skeletons (no mages), I think I'll try "Pride" and see what it's worth. Maybe I'll replace my AoKL with a "Beast" zerker too :lol: ! Gotta collect some more ISTs :lol: !
 

Necrochild313

Diabloii.Net Member
Necrochild313 said:
It would, but I was referring to the -defense portion of conviction.



Actually they miss quite frequently, it's just the fact that there are so many of them that it seems like they hit alot. Imagine how much more damage they'd deal if they hit at about every attack.


Code:
Chance to hit formula

100 * AR / (AR + DR) * 2 * alvl / (alvl + dlvl)
AR = Attack Rating; alvl = Level of Attacker; dlvl = Level of Defender; DR = Defense Rating

Note: Attacks will never have less than 5% chance to hit nor more than 95% chance to hit.
Let me use Hell Ladder Eldritch as an example, he has 1598 defense and is mlvl 84

Ok, lets say our necromantic hero "MR_SKELLYS" is level 85, and he has a level 35 raise skeleton with 35 skeleton mastery = 1070 Skeleton AR. Minions gain the caster's clvl in 1.10, so his minions are level 85 as well.

---

Ok, the equation would go like this

100 * 1070 / (1070 + 1598) * 2 * 85 / (85 + 84)

MR_SKELLYS skeletons have a 40-41% chance to hit. Pretty sad.

---

Now lets say MR_SKELLY has two Bers, a Mal, and an Ist, as well as a suitable 4 os Polarm, and makes Insight and pops it on his merc.

The aura from insight will decrease mean ol' Eldritch's defense by 85%, which leaves him with 240 defense.

---

Lets work the equation with those numbers.

100 * 1070 / (1070 + 240) * 2 * 85 / (85 + 84)

MR_SKELLYS skeletons have a 82-83% chance to hit.

MUCH better :)
My analysis from another thread. Don't forget that the %ED from Pride will only add to the %ED from fanat, might, and the skill %ED (since you already have alot of ED%, it won't make a big % change in the actual damage output.), and only increases the BASE damage of skeletons (not whats in the final skill description) whereas the benefits from infinity will be another variable. Doubling chance to hit > an additional bit of damage IMO.
 

Pherdnut

Diabloii.Net Member
You confused Insight with Infinity. :D Heart of Wolverine from Oath gives 130% AR.

Using this calculator that I was referred to at Amazon Basin, which finally shows that RS increases base damage as well as granting its own ED percentage.

http://home1.tiscalinet.de/shadowgate/imag...ySerraAngel.xls

I've got skeletons at 35/35 doing 443-447. With Concentrate it's close to double at 875-881. There seems to be something of a curve. At 30/30 damage more than doubled. At 49/49 it considerably less than doubled. So, if for some bizarre reason you only have +10 skills to your skeletons yet are having a dilemna regarding two of the most expensive polearms in the game, Pride would be ideal, but that's not a very likely scenario and when other auras are taken into consideration you're not actually doubling damage anyway.

Now, for other AR options. HoW from Oath gives a 130% bonus which puts your AR in that scenario at close to 61%. This would work better than Conviction on a might merc since Oath can be swapped after summoning using a Whisp Projector to keep it around. However, I suspect a minion with only 600ish HP is a temporary asset in Hell at best but I have yet to have tried Oath. Also, once other auras kick in, the point becomes moot.

A Blessed Aim Merc from normal however gets a Blessed Aim capped at lvl 18 which grants a 330% AR bonus. This brings the skelly AR to 74.6%. Unless you get an insanely high level Might Merc, lvl 18 Concentrate from Pride trumps his aura by a small amount, so this would appear to be the best of both worlds. However, Concentrate only beats the Might aura by a little bit around lvl 90 and the side benefit to your corpse explosions and mages is considerable. Not to mention Might mercs can have plus skills, giving their aura a higher ED than Pride's.

So basically I just spent a lot of time proving NecroChilde's point by attempting to argue with him. :D

I hate seeing that damage reduction from losing Pride (MORE DAMAGE damnit! MORE DAMAGE!!!), but the benefits of Infinity seem to be the clear winner here.

So let's see what an absurdly twinked Summoner with Infinity instead of Pride can do.

Let's give him the following gear:

+3 Summoning Circlet with resists
+2 Mara's or +2 all Summoning
+2 Enigma
+3 all from Arachnid's and BKs or SoJ
+2 Skeleton Mastery from Marrow Walks

+5 from 5 summon skillers

On swapout for prebuff:
AoKL at +2 summon and +3/+3 SM/RS
Splendor put on a +3/+3 head also granting +1 to all

On Swapout for the best Aura possible:
Fanatacism Bow +1 All 13 Fanaticism Aura (+137% Party ED) - a poor Faith roll for the sake of being conservative. Max is +2 all and lvl 15 Fanat

Merc Equipped with Chains of Honor, Andariel's, Infinity at lvl 85. Base might of 26 +4 give +330% ED.

That's giving me +51/+49 SM/RS for the prebuff. That gives skeletons 2000-2009 damage each and after you switch back to Faith, you'll have 15 skeletons. I don't think anyone is sure how fast these guys attack but let's assume twice a second with the +32% from Faith and that they're hitting 80% of the time.

15 * 2004.5 * 2 * .8 = 48,108 points of damage a second before amp kicks in for an extra 50-100% boost to damage (a lot of enemies in Hell have 50% PDR). Now, a lot of this is really fuzzy. I have no idea if they hit that fast. They might only hit once a second for a "mere" 24,054 points of damage a second but I'm guessing they hit considerably faster than that. Not all enemies have the same defense as Shenk so they could be hitting more or less often. Regardless, I think we have a solo Diablo Clone killer here (although CoH may be a better choice than Enigma for the resists). Also consider the fact that I left out HoW from Oath. I suspect with all this other gear, the skellies will be killing fast enough that you won't have to resummon that HoW too often, especially if summon resists works on cross class minions (I thought I saw someone say that they did).

And of course there are other side benefits. Your Corpse Explosions will gain a boost against anything with high fire resists and your mages will never have to deal with resists higher than 15% on nonimmunes. You'll also be an unbelievably cool asset to any 8-player game since you've got all bases covered with some very powerful tanks and resistance reductions across the board.
 

HarbingersOfSkulls

Diabloii.Net Member
Even though I use mages...I perfer pride...because the main killers for a summomer is the skeletons...and the mages are there mainly for support and in my case...to further help with lagging the butt monkey's that cry about lag from just having 10 skeletons out.

I found it funny to be hostiled by someone complaining about being lagged and almost getting lagged out of the game...and before he gets to me...he does.

HoS
 

Pherdnut

Diabloii.Net Member
So, HoS, you for sure thought the skeletons were still killing faster with Pride? The numbers would suggest otherwise, but there could be things we're not taking into consideration.
 

Mad Mantis

D2/3 Necromancer & Witch Doctor Moderator
Pherdnut said:
So, HoS, you for sure thought the skeletons were still killing faster with Pride? The numbers would suggest otherwise, but there could be things we're not taking into consideration.
Did you think about the resists the typical monster in Hell has? Typical monsters in Hell have more resists to the elements than they have to physical and Amp lowers physical resistance by 100%.
 

Pherdnut

Diabloii.Net Member
Well, sure, but if it's a matter of how many hits you're getting in, that will affect your overall damage across the board. If I'm hitting twice as often it's like the difference between Amp and no amp. Losing Pride costs you +315% to base damage. If I add in Pride's ED to that calculator with the stats from my ginormous post above it only boosts the damage by about 700 points which is a lot but still less than half the damage we already had. If Convicion allows you to hit twice as often it seems like you're best off with that.

If AS is right (I have to find a better place for monster stats), most monsters appear to have some level of physical damage resist in Hell, but rarely over 50% if they aren't immune. That's why when evaluating hell damage it's probably best to assume you're doing 50-100% more with amp damage since physical resists are actually quite common.
 
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