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Possible Negative Effects from Overloading MF?

Discussion in 'Theorycrafting and Statistics' started by SeCKSEgai, Jul 11, 2010.

  1. SeCKSEgai

    SeCKSEgai IncGamers Member

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    Possible Negative Effects from Overloading MF?

    Most of us are familiar that MF increases the chances of an item being magical or better. Since my move to SP I've found myself experimenting more to find that ideal balance.

    Here's my current dilemma. As you go higher and higher, your sets and uniques effectively drop off from diminishing returns, while your magic stays the same.

    For example, using atma, for 100% MF

    71 uniques,
    83 set
    85 rare
    100 magic

    At say 300% MF:

    136 unique
    187 set
    200 rare
    300 Magical

    As you keep going, magical items increase, but uniques and sets effectively drop off. The trend I feel like I'm seeing is that by increasing MF after a certain point, it appears to be more detrimental, not because of killing speed, but because more items will be magical, thus meaning you need to go through even more blues and yellows to get greens and browns.

    When you focus on bosses or uniques whose drops are always at least magical, it seems that the diminishing returns formula ends up punishing for loading mf where you consider the ratios of sets/uniques vs rares/magicals.

    While I know MF is basically supposed to improve the rolls for each item dropped, because of diminishing returns, wouldn't that mean mfers that focus on monsters with guaranteed magical drops actually lessen their chances overall?
     
  2. XCodes

    XCodes IncGamers Member

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    Re: Possible Negative Effects from Overloading MF?

    AFAIK the game rolls for unique first, then set, rare, and magic, in that order. In other words, you can't drown out your uniques by having a magic success rate that's so high that it never reaches the option to generate a unique.

    The real diminishing returns for having too much MF are Resistances. There are astoundingly few sets and uniques with both MF and Resists, Tal armor and Tomb Reaver are the only ones with both in significant quantities.
     
  3. SeCKSEgai

    SeCKSEgai IncGamers Member

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    Re: Possible Negative Effects from Overloading MF?

    I could have sworn I read something along those lines somewhere, but looking at Arreat Summit, it's not on the item page.

    If anything, I'm trying to figure out that actual formula to understand how is it they arrive at so many items for each type based on mf. Assuming an updated atma's calc is accurate, I'm also trying to figure out no mf affects drops in comparison to 100% etc, unless 100% is actually considered base. By the calc 0 mf still gets drop results, just no ratio indicator, though I can't help but be curious as to what those numbers really mean in actual practice.
     
  4. Milb

    Milb IncGamers Member

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    Re: Possible Negative Effects from Overloading MF?

    The only negative effect from too much MF would be a vast reduction in killing speed.

    Check Hrus' MF Guide out, section 6 explains how item quality is chosen, and this shows how more MF = more uniques and sets.

    Looking at your previous post, I'm not sure what you are getting at with the 0mf comment, 0mf doesn't mean no chance of finding magic items, its just no increased chance, so if a mob has a base 1% chance of dropping a unique, with 0mf it will still have a 1% chance.
     
  5. SeCKSEgai

    SeCKSEgai IncGamers Member

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    Re: Possible Negative Effects from Overloading MF?

    Oh I have it saved, that's probably where I read the quality checks mentioned earlier.

    As for the 0 mf, that's not possible as you'd never find magic items if it was a pure 0. What I meant is if you use the calc, 0 mf shows 0 items for each type, so either 100% is considered base mf (as in not having any from gear/charms) or 0 just doesn't calculate in the formula used by the calc.

    After going over the drop tables, I would think the latter. I'm basically now just trying to figure out what the ratio is, like without mf, you will find x uniques, y sets, z rares, and b magic.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2010
  6. Milb

    Milb IncGamers Member

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    Re: Possible Negative Effects from Overloading MF?

    Oh, I think I see your problem.

    At 100mf you won't find 100 magic items to 71 uniques, it's not a ratio. Similar for 300mf, you won't find 300 magic items to 136 uniques. Is this why you think you get less S/U items the more mf you get?

    The calculator shows you the effective mf of finding a unique/set/rare/magic, which is the value you would use in calculating odds in the mf formula, hence why 0mf is 0 for all rarities.

    Hope this makes some sense.

    Just seen you've edited your last post, as for a ratio, I don't know, sure it would be possible to work it out though.
     
  7. SeCKSEgai

    SeCKSEgai IncGamers Member

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    Re: Possible Negative Effects from Overloading MF?

    Yeah, that's it, just went over that section in Hrus's old guide. Didn't realize that it was just the effective multiplier, hence the original confusion.

    So just to clarify, since 200 mf has an ef of 2.11, if you had 4% before mf, you would now have an 8% chance more or less, correct?

    I'm pretty sure that perception I had came after seeing a graph showing how magic items stay high but sets/uniques drop off around 400. But it didn't exactly go into detail.
     
  8. Milb

    Milb IncGamers Member

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    Re: Possible Negative Effects from Overloading MF?

    Yup, that's about right :)
     
  9. scwizard

    scwizard IncGamers Member

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    Re: Possible Negative Effects from Overloading MF?

    What if you want rares instead of uniques though? Could too much MF give you a unique when you want a rare?
     
  10. XCodes

    XCodes IncGamers Member

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    Re: Possible Negative Effects from Overloading MF?

    Possibly at some point, although because of diminishing returns being harsher on Uniques than on Rares, it's not likely.
     
  11. Crehl

    Crehl IncGamers Member

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    Re: Possible Negative Effects from Overloading MF?

    Further to the point scwizard made, if you're hunting whites or socketed items you're better off with as little magic find as possible. I think the same is true for runes but for a slightly different reason.

    Edit: Ignore me, I'm (almost) talking rubbish about how MF does/does not affect the drop rate of non-magical items. Thank you, helvete.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2010
  12. SeCKSEgai

    SeCKSEgai IncGamers Member

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    Re: Possible Negative Effects from Overloading MF?

    Since I believe uniques get rolled first, that is technically possible, but as xcodes said diminishing returns penalizes uniques a lot more - while an item you'd prefer rare may spawn unique, overall you'll see more rares as you get higher in mf as uniques typically have a low chance as is.


     
  13. helvete

    helvete IncGamers Member

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    Re: Possible Negative Effects from Overloading MF?

    That's only related to kill speed. You'd need enormous MF to make normal monsters and objects drop too many blues, while you don't need very much MF to double your chances for uniques from the few bosses/uniques.

    Only when running bugged andy or using the first drop glitch.



     
  14. minuses

    minuses IncGamers Member

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    Re: Possible Negative Effects from Overloading MF?

    I do not think mf improves the stats on items at all. I think it increases the chance of rare, sets, and uniques dropping thats all.
     
  15. MFDeath

    MFDeath IncGamers Member

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    Re: Possible Negative Effects from Overloading MF?

    I know the OP mentionned SP, but IMO as far as realms are concerned runewords have completely changed the focus of the game (for me at least) and MF has sort of fallen back a little because of it. Apart from possibly reducing killspeed to the point of negating any possible advantages, MF doesnt't affect rune drops and is actually detrimental to finding valuable whites and socketables. Nowadays alot of those runeword base items are much more valuable than the average set/unique obtained from MF, and in greater demand. Personally I'd rather have no MF and better survivability/killspeed, because the vast majority of sets/uniques dropping are useless anyway, or rendered nearly useless because of potentially bad stat roll. Regardless of MF it seems I never land the few highly saught after uniques to begin with, so might as well at least not reduce my odds of finding the big demand whites/grays.
     
  16. SeCKSEgai

    SeCKSEgai IncGamers Member

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    Re: Possible Negative Effects from Overloading MF?

    Believe me, I was a realm player for the longest time, and MF really has become overrated because of the value of socketables and runewords. The whole idea behind wondering if mf had a negative effect is really comparing overall drop value.

    Runes aren't affected by more than killspeed and total kills. MF begins to have a negative effect on whites/socketables - but even at 1000+ you'll still see them - but you easily sacrificed too much to hit that so that's not really plausible anyway.

    There are only a few uniques of value in comparison to how many actually exist, and I totally agree that a bad stat roll can make even a nice find a lot less worthwhile. But as say, 200-400 mf goes, most of your whites and socketables stay that way as it doesn't improve the chances much since those are drops from regular monsters. But when you consider the actual multiplier after 250 doesn't improve much, you really don't have to push much beyond that.

    As far as killing speed/survivability - it really depends on the build. Some builds will fit mf easily (caster) than others (melee). With runes ultimately being the most valuable in the long term, one effectively needs no mf to build up wealth on the realms. For SP, it's more for the sake of collecting items, like finding those sets/uniques you haven't seen drop for yourself before.
     
  17. helvete

    helvete IncGamers Member

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    Re: Possible Negative Effects from Overloading MF?

    I do not fully agree with all of the above. In the *start* of a ladder season, MF will make you rich far faster than rune hunting. First-dropping meph in other peoples baal runs will quickly net you a few of the valuable uniques, and people WILL overpay for them. Small list of stuff I made tons of ists off of last reset:
    -Shako
    -Arach
    -Mara's
    -HoZ
    -Skullder's
    -Vipermagi
    -Magefist (Yes, magefist!!)
    -Arreat's
    -Dracul's
    -Reaper's Toll

    ....and then comes the tons of pgems and pul/um I got out of selling less valuable (but still useful) stuff.
     
  18. rickster

    rickster IncGamers Member

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    Re: Possible Negative Effects from Overloading MF?

    Someone should make a graph of this, maybe I will, of comparing the values of uniques/sets/rares/magics/grays/runes/crafting items over time.

    At the start of ladder everything is in high demand low supply. As time goes on more items are found and the value of everything drops. There aren't that many good set items, so they drop the lowest in value, there aren't that many good magic items so they drop pretty low as well.

    Most uniques drop really low in value as well, i can trade for 10,000 shakos if i wanted to. However the barb and pally uniques stay fairly high in value (eth shaft/tooth/arreats/andies/deathcleaver/etc...). In my experience I find socketable items more expensive than the everyday sorc/pally mf gear. Finding a good memory base, or finding an item that needs 3 sockets, when larzuk will give it 4, are still worth trading.

    I think this is the point the OP was trying to make. Late in ladder most uniques are worth very little, and it's the rare items that are worth the most. 5-6 quality affix rares are worth 1000+ shakos.

    However bnet doesn't have the means to trade for 1000 shakos, so you have to trade elsewhere.
     
  19. SeCKSEgai

    SeCKSEgai IncGamers Member

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    Re: Possible Negative Effects from Overloading MF?

    The very beginning of a ladder is definitely like that - I wasn't counting that as I figured that's pretty much a given. But you also have to consider a lot of folks have "stored wealth" on another particular forum and will pay considerably more for items.

    New ladder was maybe 3 months or so in when I started back up, and while runes were valued far different from last season, everything else had basically stabilized.

    @ Rickster - a graph of unique values over time is something the forums have needed for a long time I think. I miss scoob's trade value list. Ultimately, it would be nice to see just how many uniques still remain valuable after the initial ladder blitz.

    Oh and you still have that melee sorc on NL now?


     
  20. Abakus

    Abakus IncGamers Member

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    Re: Possible Negative Effects from Overloading MF?

    no, the more MF the better. There's no such thing as negative effect of more MF if you didn't sacrafice efficiency and safty.
     

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