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Poisonmancer questions

Discussion in 'Necromancer' started by lumpor, May 16, 2008.

  1. lumpor

    lumpor IncGamers Member

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    Poisonmancer questions

    I'm making a pure poisonmancer, and I have some questions.

    1. I've put a point each into clay golem, golem mastery and summon resist. In the guides it says that with only three points, I'll get a good tank. But he only has 120 HP. I saw someone say that his golem had 1300+ life with only those skills. Even if you have lots of +skill gear, how will he get that much more life?

    2. Almost everyone says I should only put 1 point in lower resist and let +skills do the rest because of diminishing returns. But even with +skills it will only lower the enemies resist by about 50% which won't break that many immunities. Should I really not put any points into it?

    3. After I've maxed the three poison skills, what should I do with my leftovers? I'm not going to get skeletons. Should I boost my golem or should I get bone armor or should I put more into lower resist or max corpse explosion?
    Can't poison explosion replace corpse explosion, or corpse explosion too good since it increases in power when the monsters increase in power?

    4. How many sockets does Larzuk put into a piece of equipment at every difficulty (I know it's 1-2 in normal)?

    Thanks
     
  2. windwingwind

    windwingwind IncGamers Member

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    Re: Poisonmancer questions

    1. Golem life adjusts according to difficulty. So it has more life in Hell. Check the pet calculator.

    2. You use lower resist to, well, lower the resist of your foes, not just breaking immunities. Omit it and see how does that hurt your necro's efficiency.

    3. PE << CE because of its range of effect. For left over pt you may consider bone armor and its synergies. Personally I think RS + SM are the best place to go but since you dont want let's dont discuss that.

    4. How many sockets does Larzuk put into a piece of equipment depends not on the difficulty in which you use the quest but on the ilvl of the item. And ilvl depends on the difficulty and area where the item was found. Check this out.
     
  3. Wizdomm

    Wizdomm IncGamers Member

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    Re: Poisonmancer questions

    For skill points options after maxing the poison synergies (and with out skels), you could try...

    (1) 1 point bone armor, and then as much into Bone Wall and Prison as you can. With your plus skill items and PnB gear you will get a VERY nice bone armor. (I like this option)

    (2) Max Golem Mastery and then create you an insight golem to help out with mana (great if you tele alot). And you still may have a nice number of points (15 or so) to put into Bone Wall for an OK bone armor (probably around 300 def, hey every little bit helps).

    (3) Max Corpse Explosion. I don't like this option though. I don't think any poison or bone necro should be putting more than one point in CE. With the all the plus skills to PnB you will have, you will already have a killer CE radius with just one point.
     
  4. Jednowlosy

    Jednowlosy IncGamers Member

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    Re: Poisonmancer questions

    1. hell difficulty bonus
    2. +all skills items
    3. call to arms

    Your golem ends with ~10 k hp and is totally immortal in normal game, he even stands a couple of seconds against uber mephisto. If you put a couple of points here, he will be even tougher, but you will only notice that against uber diablo/umeph/ubaal/lilith/uduriel/uizzy.

    Again, items that give +all skills or +necro/+curse. They are easy to get, and if you play on single player, you can still use easy to find stuff like trang claws. When playing on bnet, you will have a decent LR. If you wish to make it stronger, a couple of points put there won't hurt. The main advantage of this skill is breaking immunities (with death's web, poison facets and trang set you will reduce every nonimmune monster to negative resistance anyway). TO break 110 resistant monsters, you need 55% lower resist. You can put a few spare points to make it 60% if extra -5% seems interesting to you.

    CE gives you another element (two, actually) that allows you to kill unbreakable poison immune monsters. With merc equipped with good stuff, you cast amplify damage, he claims the first kill, and you CE twice and the whole screen gets annihiliated no matter how strong/resistant they are, excluding rare cases of fire/physical immunes or fire immunes with stone skin. CE will deal lower damage on those guys even after amp.

    Maxing CE is not necessary (you get +20-25 to poison bone skills with perf stuff), but it's fun to kill monsters in a even wider AoE. I prefer to keep it maxed just for joy ;)


     
  5. AnimeCraze

    AnimeCraze IncGamers Member

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    Re: Poisonmancer questions

    Even if you are not going to get skeletons, get revive (again, 1 point). If you have more points after, get the AI curses, and max CE. (or if you want to play safe, get bone armor)
     
  6. lumpor

    lumpor IncGamers Member

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    Re: Poisonmancer questions

    Ok, I guess I'll spend 6 points just to get summons. But won't the army be weak if i rely only on +skill to make it good? And is it really better to use a clay golem instead of an iron golem made from a runeword with an aura (like the one that gives conviction aura)?

    I think i'll put the rest into bone armor and its synergies
     
  7. Dirkw

    Dirkw IncGamers Member

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    Re: Poisonmancer questions

    Revives only get better with skeleton mastery, not with more points in the skill itself. I've never tried revives with a low level skeleton mastery, but I'm guessing it can't be all that useful, because they are really crappy with no skeleton mastery at all.

    I don't mean to offend you, but I can't see you risking ber/mal/ber/ist on an iron golem. You could however make insight with one.

    I'm not really a big fan of clay golems, but they are useful on moderately equipped characters because of their high hp/survivability. Otherwise, an insight golem or just a fire golem is more worth it to me.

    I've never built a poisonmancer before, but when I do, I will definitely max lower resist, if not only principally (the poison should be as strong as possible on this character, IMO) and leave CE at a low level. I would probably not put any points in bone armors and stuff because I've never felt I needed it.
     
  8. NumtyDoo

    NumtyDoo IncGamers Member

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    Re: Poisonmancer questions

    Most people do not use revives as killers (there are a few monsters that are good, but most are blah) with the exception of urdars on bosses.

    Revives/skellies are there as meat shields, against non poison immunes, they keep baddies off you while you spam a couple of novas. Poison is an awesome killer, but it takes time to kill, revives/skellies keep you safe during that duration. Against poison immunes, revives/skellies keep your merc from getting locked in hit recovery animation so that he can get a corpse down to start your CE chain. Skellies will add decent physical damage to your arsenal, but take 20 points in RS to be good. While revives in general will do less damage, they make good shields, and only require a single skill point.

    In general people do not max lower resist, and for good reason. My guy has 1 point in LR, which after +skills gives -66%, 20 points would get me like -70%, imho -4% difference is not worth my 20 skill points. I would rather put those points in CE, and clear the whole screen of unbreakable poison immunes with a single click. Skellies/Bone armor/DV are better uses for those points as well. The only time I could see maxing LR is if your pure PvP.

    I prefer clay golems over insight for a few reasons. Insight golems are good at lower lvls when you need the mana, but a lvl 90+ character with decent gear should be ok mana wise. To keep IG from croaking you need to boost golem mastery, those are points that could be better spent elsewhere, clay golem will have more life (after +skills) with a single point than IG will with maxed mastery. The slow effect is awesome against bosses, and since I don't have mana issues at lvl 90+, the medetation aura isn't really useful to me anyway.

    I have a poison/summon at the minute, but after seeing what CE does with my fishy, my next 'for fun' necro will be ...

    Maxed Poison skills and CE
    1 pt in revives/good curses/clay golem
    all the rest in either bone armor (1BA+synergies) or dim vision.
     
  9. onderduiker

    onderduiker IncGamers Member

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    Re: Poisonmancer questions

    Both Corpse and Poison Explosion can be useful; unlike CE, PE's damage isn't dependent on the base hit points of the corpse it's cast upon. So let's say you're dealing with a Vile Mother: kill a Vile Child she spawns and cast PE on its corpse, poisoning the Mother; then once she succumbs, cast CE on her corpse to kill her remaining Children. :devil:

    It's also possible to kill Diablo in Hell with a single PE, while it would take multiple CEs to do so.


     
    Last edited: May 16, 2008
  10. AnimeCraze

    AnimeCraze IncGamers Member

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    Re: Poisonmancer questions

    Why cast PE when you can cast nova? They do the same amount of DPS, and nova does not depend on a corpse.

    As for insight IG, don't forget that the ultimate weapon for a poison necro, dweb, has loads of mana per kill.
     
  11. onderduiker

    onderduiker IncGamers Member

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    Re: Poisonmancer questions

    Laziness, safety and variety. :smiley:

    Poison Explosion and Nova may have similar poison damage rates, but PE has a much longer poison length; where circumstances permit it, wouldn't you rather cast one PE than multiple PNs? Admittedly, if your Necromancer is equipped with plentiful skill bonuses, +% to Poison Skill Damage and -% to Enemy Poison Resistance, then one PN may be all you need to cast against most targets...

    However, against targets like Diablo who will take multiple PNs to kill, casting a single PE can allow you to run and take refuge around a corner; you'll be applying poison damage at a comparable rate to PN, but you aren't required to remain within retaliatory range to constantly reapply it, which is obviously safer.

    Although PN is preferable in most circumstances due to its comparable damage rate and much wider radius (PE's is set at approximately 4 yards), there are situations where casting PE adds a bit of variety e.g. creating literal choke-points by exploding corpses in door- and hallways so that all monsters who move through them are poisoned as they pursue you.


     
  12. AnimeCraze

    AnimeCraze IncGamers Member

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    Re: Poisonmancer questions

    I am quite safe around my wall of revives and skeles, thank you. I always do the venom lord pack last and get ~10 of them telestacked onto diablo (and baal).
     
  13. lumpor

    lumpor IncGamers Member

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    Re: Poisonmancer questions

    Ok thanks for the help. But i have a few more questions. I'm planning to make a mancer that uses poison dagger with blackbogs sharp on weapon switch. Is that a good idea? If i poison an enemy with poison dagger, and then switch to deaths web, will the damage from poison dagger be strengthened because of the - enemy resist from deaths web even though I didn't wear deaths web when i stabbed the enemy? And isn't poison dagger very good against bosses too? It has a very long duration and total damage, which is the most important thing against bosses. I'm planning to switch to call to arms manually every time i want to cast BO, and use treachery to activate venom and then switch to bramble to make my poison dagger very efficient. Is that a good strategy?
     
  14. Jednowlosy

    Jednowlosy IncGamers Member

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    Re: Poisonmancer questions

    Every idea is good, as long as it's meant to be a fun build. If you want fast killing, I wouldn't advise it.

    no

    Poison is slow in general vs. bosses, meleeing with your weak necro isn't the best idea too, if you really want a daggermancer why not to use fleshripper :rolleyes:

    It has two times lower DPS than poison nova, mind you. ANd why duration is so important vs. bosses? You can recast your nova every 2 secs. Insight grants you unlimited mana and is a decent merc weapon after all.

    It's very annoying to do, trust me.


     
  15. lumpor

    lumpor IncGamers Member

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    Re: Poisonmancer questions

    Ok thanks. The reason I said that duration is important against bosses is that you can stab, and then run away and wait a minute or so (or even visit town and the poison will still be there). Poison nova needs to be recast over and over again which forces you to be close to the boss over a long period. But I guess you're right.

    Oh and one more thing, are summons useful against non-PI's, like in the pit?
     
  16. Jednowlosy

    Jednowlosy IncGamers Member

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    Re: Poisonmancer questions

    sure they are, albeit they feel a bit redundant if your build isn't focused around them. I would say a good poison necro doesn't need any summon except for a golem.
     
  17. onderduiker

    onderduiker IncGamers Member

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    Re: Poisonmancer questions

    Poison Dagger suffers in comparison to both Poison Explosion and Nova because it can only be applied to one target at a time, and its own damage rate is significantly less. However, while nothing can be done about its single target, its damage rate can rival that of PE and PN if it's combined with Venom (the damage rates and lengths of Poison Dagger and Venom sum).

    It's technically possible to kill Baal in a Hell Ladder game (493,701 base hit points and Poison Resist 50%) with a single stab (I've confirmed this in a single-player experiment), but doing so involves ideal equipment and switching that is too awkward for regular gameplay. However, a well-equipped Necromancer should be able to kill most monsters with a single envenomed stab; while it would be safer and more efficient to kill with PN (or even PE), PD can be fun.

    In terms of survival, there's Bone Armour, Wall and Prison, Summoning (usually a Golem and Revives) and/or Curses, particularly AI (Dim Vision, Terror, Confuse and Attract). Note that like -% to Enemy Poison Resistance and +% to Poison Skill Damage, Lower Resist only has to be active when the poison is applied; this means it can be overwritten immediately afterwards e.g. you could cast Decrepify on a boss like Baal as you ran away, or use a Wailing dagger's Hit Causes Monster to Flee 100% to scatter monsters once they'd been stabbed (it's applied after the hit, so it doesn't overwrite LR until after the damage has been applied).

    If you leave the area, poison damage will stop being applied, so you would need to remain in the Worldstone Chamber with Baal while the poison ran its course. You could hide around a corner or behind a pillar, though.

    There shouldn't be any monsters immune to poison in the Pit; at worst, Bone Warriors have PR 75% (Dark Archers have 25%, Dark Stalkers 20% and Devilkin and their Shamans 0%).


     
  18. galzohar

    galzohar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Poisonmancer questions

    Depending on your +skills, once you have 20/20/20 nova+synergies and 1 in all (or at least the useful) summons, it may help to beef up LR a little. As long as it gets >1% per level it helps, not to mention bigger raidus means you're less likely to need to cast it more than once per poison nova cast leaving more time for CE/running around/whatever. I would definitely not max it, but without extreme +all skill gear (which will especially happen if you max your damage/second by wearing a +3 circlet and a neck and are too poor to have a load of +all skills on top of that). Remember you have a lot of spare points since you don't need to pump the golem or any other summons (will be good enough in hell and can be recast anyway). Once LR has a big enough radius, go with CE. At lower levels mob will die too fast to nova to use CE but later on it gets useful in between novas once LR is already applied.

    Forget about poison explosion/dagger, while they can kill things, they're inferior in almost every single way to poison nova/CE.
     
  19. Jednowlosy

    Jednowlosy IncGamers Member

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    Re: Poisonmancer questions

    LR radious is sick anyway.

    Circlets aren't just for the poor, +3 pnb/100life/2sox circlet is the best helmet you can wear imo.

    Once you reach 14k dam poison nova with death's web and trang's shield/belt/gloves for the extra -25% pres, you can clear a whole screen of monsters with just one cast ^_^ There are a few that are unbreakable immunes but CE beats them anyway and a merc with:

    BoTD eth warpike
    Fortitude
    Andy Visage

    and your amp damage is a monster, so you'll get the first body to blow within miliseconds.

    In other words, poisonmancer is one of the top PvM chars. Can't understand why he is so unpopular, but it's not bad, it makes his gear cheaper :)
     
  20. lumpor

    lumpor IncGamers Member

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    Re: Poisonmancer questions

    Isn't a merc with infinity better?
     

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