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Plundering dead HC characters stash

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by ThaCheeZe, Oct 5, 2006.

  1. ThaCheeZe

    ThaCheeZe IncGamers Member

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    Plundering dead HC characters stash

    Hey,

    I've picked up D2 again after a while of playing, since the fact that I never got a character to complete nightmare on HC was nagging at me.

    In my new streak I killed 5 characters already, 2 of them were in act 5 nightmare, but died before i completed it. frustrating...

    Anyway, in my misery I was confronted with the moral question of being able to loot my dead hc character's stash with ATMA. I figured that it was cheesy and decided against it. If I'm so stupid to leave valuable items in a HC characters stash and the character dies, it's my own stupid fault.

    But I thought it was an interesting question to propose for you folks.
    Of course looting an dead HC's corpse is a nono, but with ATMA being an extended stash, one could argue that stashed items (whether in atma or a character's stash) do not belong to a specific character and therefore may be looted if a character dies.

    Again, I decided against it and I'm not looking for advice, but I just want to start a nice discussion.

    Cheers,
    CheeZe
     
  2. Milb

    Milb IncGamers Member

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    I will use items that I have muled and stashed in ATMA but won't touch any items that have been lost in play. So basically anything on a dead characters corpse, backpack and inventory are a no go in my eyes.

    Milb
     
  3. nebux

    nebux IncGamers Member

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    then what's the reason to play HC????
     
  4. FlimFlan

    FlimFlan IncGamers Member

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    Are you planning on trading here? If not, do whatever makes the game fun for you.
     
  5. nex

    nex IncGamers Member

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    Cool. Good decision.

    QFT.
     
  6. Hrus

    Hrus IncGamers Member

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    nebux, FlimFlan, did you actually read the original post?

    I am with Milb. You can mule HC items on a mule without Atma, and the items from mule will be still possible to use after original character dies. IMHO if you use Amta only for things that are possible without it (but it's easier with Atma), it's all OK. Like Milb said - looting from dead character is nono. Switching items SC->HC or HC->SC are nono too in my eyes. Using Atma to mule out items that can be further used by other characters is OK, no matter if the founder dies later.
     
  7. Drystan

    Drystan IncGamers Member

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    IMO, I agree with Hrus on most points.
    If ATMA weren't around, I'd make character mules and run 2 copies of D2 on the one computer and trade them over TCP/IP. I don't use ATMA stash, but I do make char mules. It's still possible without ATMA, but it makes transferring that much easier, simpler and quicker.
    Items on a dead HC char can't be muled off legitly in any way.

    I can understand where most people come from, but IF i were to trade, I wouldn't trade a SC item into HC (obvious,) because the SC char might've died previously.
    I am OK with HC -> SC trades though, however, I don't play SC so it doesn't matter. I personally wouldn't do it because I don't see the point (SC's easy anyway :grin:,) but I'm fine with it.
    I know it can't be done in game, thus know not everyone sees it like me, but the factor of death is taken out.
    My view only, and I don't trade.
     
  8. ThaCheeZe

    ThaCheeZe IncGamers Member

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    I wasn't planning on trading, so don't worry (even though I think I play by the SPF rules, so I would be allowed). I just thought it an interesting moral discussion where people draw the line between ATMA stashes and regular ones.
    Anyway I keep any useful but unused stuff in ATMA and not in character's stashes, since I don't want to touch anything from a dead HC character. (I just keep them around so I can look at their specs now and then and curse myself for letting them die)

    Now I'm off to play again, since I'm determined to finish Nightmare at least once.
     
  9. purplelocust

    purplelocust IncGamers Member

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    One thing to keep in mind is that some of these things that you can do with ATMA are possible in the game and some are not. I feel like there is a huge difference between things that could be done in the game and those that cannot. If something cannot, even in principle, be done in the game, then to my mind, it is definitely forbidden.

    For example, muling items between characters can be done in multiplayer, and many of us (such as those of us who play mainly on Macs) have to do that for their muling anyway. ATMA makes it much more convenient in that you don't need to make a multiplayer game, you don't need 200 mule characters to hold items, you don't even need to make a single character, you don't lose your map when muling, etc. but for muling items it could all be done in the game, without ATMA. It's less convenient but it could be done in game, so it's OK by me.

    But changing items from HC to SC or vice-versa is possible in ATMA, but not possible in the game itself. So for me, that is absolutely forbidden.

    The original question of items from a dead HC character kind of lies in a middle ground, though. Looting a character's corpse is possible in the game, but doing in ATMA is more than just cheesy. In true multiplayer, looting a corpse is often quite a challenge, as reaching the character's corpse may be quite difficult and probably the monsters that killed the character are quite dangerous, so that can be very hard and sometime done only with great risk to another valuable character, or at least a great deal of committment. I've had some very memorable difficult times looting valuable items from a fallen character, and sadly a few times I've lost a second character trying to loot good HC items from a first dead character. On battle.net, there is often a sense of urgency when the connection has a great deal of lag or interupption is possible, adding complication. On the other hand, such "looting" in ATMA is completely safe and very different from doing it in the game, so that is not acceptable to me, though some people seem to think it is OK.

    More subltly, there are really three possible sets of items to extract from a dead HC character, though: equipped items, items in the backpack, and items in the game stash. I can see how these could be regarded differently by different folks:

    1) equipped items: those could, in principle, be looted by another player in the game (at possible great danger to another character)

    2) backpack items: these could never be looted by another player

    3) chest stash items: these could never be looted by another player in the game, but it could be the case that those would not be in that player's chest but in another player's chest in multiplayer. That is, when playing HC on b.net, oftentimes I would have two characters in the game. One was the one I was actually playing (say char A) , and the other character (B) was there to loot, if unforunately needed. There is no point in A having valuable things he's not using in his town stash, since if he dies, those would be lost, so instead he can give them to B to hold while A is off adventuring. So, in principle, the items in A's town stash could have all been safe from his death. So I can see how some might argue that items in the chest would be OK to loot. Certainly to my mind it isn't as bad to loot items from a chest as it is from a corpse, or particularly not from a backpack.

    For me, I just go with not doing any ATMA looting at all. One of the reasons I enjoy playing HC is the commitment factor, which is increased with the possible loss of good items anyway, so it works well for me.

    Heading in another direction, there is the question of "hot muling" which involves using ATMA to take items from a character who is playing without stopping the game. This comes up most often when finding a Gheed's Fortune, that you can only hold one of, basically. I'm not opposed to hot-muling since that is something that could easily be done in multiplayer and in fact happens a great deal on battle.net, even if you only have one computer. You can go to town, drop the new Gheed Charm on the ground, pick up the old one, leave, then join the game with another character to get the one off the ground. So since the equivalent thing can be accomplished in game (again, with less convenience) it doesn't bother me.
     
  10. DurfBarian

    DurfBarian IncGamers Member

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    I don't have ATMA and I do plenty of muling with my HC characters. But when one dies, she dies with all the itamz she's carrying on her person and in her stash.
     
  11. Sint Nikolaas

    Sint Nikolaas IncGamers Member

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    I could've said all that stuff a lot shorter:
    If your HC char dies, delete him/her from your char screen imediately. Then open ATMA, click on your char and the (if you have them) stashes involved. Your char will disappear (as will the items) but if you have seperate stashes they will stay.
    The items that stay, you can use, the items that disappear, you can't.
     
  12. Shagsbeard

    Shagsbeard IncGamers Member

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    For me, I move the items that are "grail" items to a seperate stash I only use to keep track of the items I have found. I still consider it +1 for the grail, but I just don't have access to the item anymore. I'm going to do a grail inventory this weekend to see what's what. I bet I'm down below 30 items to go, not all of which are in an active stash.
     
  13. Spearthrower

    Spearthrower IncGamers Member

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    It's really fascinating to see how much the grey area between black and white had expanded over the years!

    When I last played, what was right and wrong was really clearly obvious with very little in between greys.

    Now there's about 800 camps all with their own view and reasonable logic to support it! :)

    I think all this, more than anything else, is the reason why I have gone untwinked HC. Now I don't need to think for a moment what to do with x item - if I can't use it, I sell it. End of question! ;)
     
  14. Sir Dante

    Sir Dante IncGamers Member

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    If you use the defense that it is possible without Atma then you have to consider that it is also possible to loot your own Hardcore character without Atma.

    If you have two computers then you log both your characters in. You play the character that you intend to play while your other character remains in town. Your town sitter goes hostile and the character you are playing enables looting. Move your town sitter every now and then so he won't log out. If your main character dies you can retrieve your items with your town sitter. So it can be done without Atma.
     
  15. nex

    nex IncGamers Member

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    This was also discussed before. This way you cannot loot charms and you cannot loot merc's items. And you cannot loot anything if nice pack of Gloams with Conviction or Frenzytaurs with Fanaticism are sitting on your corpse waiting for some optimistic wannabe-hero to come on corpse rescue mission.

    So, not quite the same as looting char with ATMA.
     
  16. Drystan

    Drystan IncGamers Member

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    That, and the fact that most people play SP in SP Mode (IE, not TCP/IP mode.) Thus, if a HC did die, it is likely to be that it died in SP mode, and that you can't have another char in the same game with you.
    Not always the case, but I seriously doubt many people would play HC SP on TCP/IP.
     
  17. PSYCHO

    PSYCHO IncGamers Member

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    I am so glad to see people latching onto the same premise that I've kept to heart:

    'If it can't be done in the game, it shouldn't be done with ATMA'.
     
  18. FlimFlan

    FlimFlan IncGamers Member

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    Yes. I still say if he wants to do it and doesn't plan on trading or MPing, what is the harm? If he wants to hack for all he's worth to enjoy the game, who am I to tell him he can't?

    Personally, I don't do it but I am not going to judge someone else for doing it.

    RWM & RRM are not available in SP, but the use is accepted here. Funny how people can be so judgmental about how someone else plays if it is not like them.
     
  19. Shagsbeard

    Shagsbeard IncGamers Member

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    If we adopt "if it can be done on B.net, we should be able to do it" we'll end up no better off than them. It's clear to any rational observer that there is some way to efficiently collect Zods. They're selling for 'bout $4 on the ladder through sites that insist that they got them legitly. Yeah... right.

    We all adopt our own standards, and if you insist on inflicting your own standards on others, fine... but count me out. I choose to play SP because I know what rules I play under. If you choose to trade and MP here, there's always the problem of interacting with people who have different rulesets. The solutions are to either stop interacting, or loosen up what you expect others to do.

    It would be great if we could have profiles that would allow us to list the rulesets we play under with common things, like looting HC corpses already listed and we just check yes/no.
     

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