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Please help me with my Baal running Lightning zon! (Goal: sub 2 minutes)

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by Fabian, Jul 29, 2010.

  1. Fabian

    Fabian IncGamers Member

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    Please help me with my Baal running Lightning zon! (Goal: sub 2 minutes)

    Hi,

    The other day I was remembering the old Denton thread with the video of his lightning sorc doing a p1/p8/p3 Baal run in 2:21. Later on in the thread, there was some speculation that perhaps a Lightning Amazon would have even greater potential than the lightning sorc. This reminded me of this goal I set for myself a longish time ago when first reading that thread; to try and improve those p1/p8/p3 Baal running times with a lightning zon.

    As it turns out, I now probably have the equipment necessary for such an attempt. I'd like to ask you fellow awesome SPFers for some input on this character though :)

    Below is what I'm using right now, but I'm planning on plenty of respeccing in her future to find what's good. Again, the end goal is to have this character capable of doing very quick Baal runs.

    (Note that the name comes from when I used to rush characters in 1.07. During one such rush I rushed one of each through to the Hell Ancients quest, which basically made them clvl52 mules. This is the zon which later turned into my cow runner, and now my Baal runner. I haven't got around to renaming her yet :))

    LCS: (or direct link if that's preferrable)
    [​IMG]


    Skills:
    Lightning Fury, Charged Strike 20 (42) (I basically kill most things with LF, and any small packs of monsters, as well as Baal, with CS. Better ways of going about this?)
    Lightning Strike 20, Power Strike 20, Lightning Bolt 11
    Pierce 4 (13)
    5 prereqs


    Equipment:
    Griffon's +16/-24 with Facet (thinking of switching to Griffon's with IAS Jewel for better breakpoint, worth it?)
    Enigma
    195% non-eth Titan's Revenge (have eth 162% available)/Spirit Monarch
    Thunderstroke/Spirit Monarch on switch (when killing Baal?)
    Cat's Eye/Highlord's Wrath (DS isn't really useful, right?)
    Lancer's Leather Gloves of Alacrity (3/20)
    Razortail
    Rare Boots (38CR/34LR/30FR/10FHR)
    Raven Frost 20/239
    1.10a beta BKWB

    Merc has 1.07 eth Infinity, Fortitude, eth Andariel's Visage Ral'd

    Charms:(currently)
    8 skillers (36/29/26/19/12/6 str/3 str/plain)
    3* Shimmering of Balance (14 resist all)
    2* Shimmering of Sustenance (9/25)
    Ruby of Balance, Russet of Balance (17/10)
    2* Emerald of Vita (22/40)
    2* Amber of Vita (20/36)
    Ruby of Vita (11/16)

    Note that resists still only 11/26/42/10, which I imagine is not cool.


    FCR: 58 (33% Spirit, could of course easily be rerolled to 35)
    IAS: 40 (55% if I put an IAS jewel in the Griffon's, getting to the next breakpoint. Thoughts?)
    FHR: 90 (I'll try to get a hold of a Harpoonist's of Balance so I can switch out 3 SC's of Balance and still get the 86% breakpoint)


    Here are some of my, admittedly not always super knowledgable, thoughts:

    I think resists need to come up, but I'm not quite sure where this should come from. I'm guessing replacing the gloves with some sick rare impossible-to-find 2/20/tri resist gloves might be a good way? I'm also not very happy with my rings (do you think Raven Frost is super necessary? Cham the Griffon's, even?), and could see myself getting some nice resists out of at least one ring slot. Balancing +skills and things like resists will take a lot of testing, but I'd love to hear some thoughts on it all the same, of course. In theory, I'd also like to be able to wear a 1.07 MPK ring, because I'm not a fan of how quick mana runs out now, but that might be a somewhat small issue not really worthy of devoting specific equipment to. I considered something like Silkweave, but it seems like the resists (and FHR) from the boots would be quite valuable. Thoughts?

    As for the belt slot, I can't really see what would be better. Thundergod's? Arachnid Mesh? Speaking of Pierce (Razortail), I'd love to hear some thoughts on how valuable it is, if 1 skill point is enough or if I should go for more. Speaking of Passive&Magic skills, would Valkyrie/Decoy/Dodge/Evade be worthwhile? I'm guessing.. no/no/maybe/maybe?

    Honestly I'm quite tempted to skip Griffon's altogether and go with my 1.07 Valkyrie Wing (30FRW/30FHR/30IAS/30FCR+socket), but the lost firepower simply just can't be worth those otherwise fabulous stats, can it? Such a sexy helm though.. :)

    What about javelins? Might be worth skipping Thunderstroke so I could use my beta CtA for added safety? My merc seems to die quite a bit so far in the somewhat limited testing I've done, but I suspect gaining 5 levels or so will help with that. Any other merc setup you think I should be trying/using?


    As you can see, there's A LOT of stuff I'm quite unsure of, as I'm really just trying to get a good overview of things right now, and start focusing on the nitty gritty details once I better understand the basics. Any thoughts, comments, theories, wild guesses, speculation, etc, on any part of the process, including equipment choice, skill placement, stat placement, specific playing techniques (this especially!), etc, would be very appreciated. When/If I try to break any records, she will most likely play with 10 skillers and 10 SC's, unless you convince me otherwise.

    Thanks for reading, and thanks a lot for any advice!

    (ps, small and really unimportant note: After finishing this, I found another Ruby SC of Balance on the remains of my PvP barb, so I could replace the 7/5 SC and end up with 4 more Fire Resist)
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2010
  2. Pijus

    Pijus IncGamers Member

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    Re: Please help me with my Baal running Lightning zon! (Goal: sub 2 minutes)

    IIRC razortail needs level 9 pierce to get to 100% piercing.

    I'd try the Valkyrie Wing. You have Infinity, so losing the Griffons should only hurt half as much. Don't think all resists need to be 75, but CBF is a must. Baal often uses the cold attack, CE ranged monsters(or just ordinary OKs)will chill you aswell.

    IMO, you only need lightning resistance at 75, the rest can be around 30 or so.

    On Second thought, there are Gloams in the throne. If you take of Griffons, you'd need -elr% somewhere.

    Disclaimer: I probably have less experience than you at running Baal :D
     
  3. bcoe

    bcoe IncGamers Member

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    Re: Please help me with my Baal running Lightning zon! (Goal: sub 2 minutes)

    One thing that comes to mind for me would be to swap Griff/Spirit/Ravenfrost with Kiras/JMoD + 4x facets/SoJ. Tough call about which would be better, I think. I've never seen a JMoD, though, so finding one could be tough... Or maybe just swapping spirit for JMoD for bigger - ELR.

    I think a Cham'd 1.07 Valk wing/JMoD would be a pretty amazing combo...
     
  4. Thyiad

    Thyiad Moderator Single Player, D2 Assassin, Barbarian

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    Re: Please help me with my Baal running Lightning zon! (Goal: sub 2 minutes)

    Don't amazons have lousy FCR breakpoints? How about drop Enigma for CoH or Fort or anything with resists? Just run the WSK.
     
  5. RobbyD

    RobbyD IncGamers Member

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    Re: Please help me with my Baal running Lightning zon! (Goal: sub 2 minutes)

    TGod's would be especially suited to help with Gloams while also providing bumps to relevant skills for this build/goal. You give up the Pierce bonus, but the defense it provides along with the + skill bumps (and the always-welcom +20 Str/Vit) makes it an excellent choice, IMHO. You probably still need to get LR highter, though. Replace one of the Shimmering charms with an Amber, perhaps?
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2010
  6. zerth

    zerth IncGamers Member

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    Re: Please help me with my Baal running Lightning zon! (Goal: sub 2 minutes)

    I'd like to see what comes of this...

    Anyway, eth or non-eth titans shouldn't be an issue, you should not care about the physical portion of the damage.

    If you don't end up with a CtA on switch, consider Thunderstroke with a monarch socketed with a mixture of lightning RBFs and IAS jewels. If you want to top the light sorc you will need to cut down on the time it takes you to waste Baal, since you won't be having Static Field.

    Why a Cat's Eye, I say go with Mara's. Edit: Ah, yes the IAS. Still, maybe you could go for the 30 ias breakpoint with a jewel on Griffons. It will be hard to find [email protected] resists elsewhere.

    Razortail is debatable. This is not the cow level. Each pack has ~8 monsters or so? Maybe you can get away with ~70 percent pierce from the skill and use a Tgods for the extra skill and lightning absorb.

    The rest looks good, just keep lightning and fire resists maxed with charms. As you said, you will be using LF for the waves and telestomp whatever's left with CS - same for Baal.

    PS: I've given it a shot, but I don't think I managed anything over 2:30 in about 20 runs. Of course, I didn't play around with my equipment as much as I should and, as you probably know, I suck :)
     
  7. nualum

    nualum IncGamers Member

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    Re: Please help me with my Baal running Lightning zon! (Goal: sub 2 minutes)

    Seems like maareek popped a JMoD in one of the past couple MFOs...

    A 5/5 facet in your current setup is almost exactly 8% more damage to Baal under conviction, where a 1 frame improvement from 9 to 8 for CS should be ~ 12%... 1.08 * (24 / 9) vs 1.00 * (24/8) = 2.** vs 3 ... slightly in favor of the IAS.
     
  8. Fabian

    Fabian IncGamers Member

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    Re: Please help me with my Baal running Lightning zon! (Goal: sub 2 minutes)

    Pijus: Thanks. I was unaware that's how Razortail worked, if so I could save 3 skill points, which would be nice. Lightning Resist is actually pretty much taken care of if I use Highlord's instead of Cat's Eye, which I'm leaning towards is definitely correct.

    bcoe: I know, lots of pretty sexy-sounding setups. I know maareek found a JMoD, I wonder how impossible it would be to get a hold of that ;) Barring any JMod shenanigans, I'm definitely considering Cham'ing that Griffon's more and more, to basically open up an entire ring slot. Lots to consider though.

    Thyiad: They do indeed have pretty abysmal breakpoints. Consider, though, how extremely quickly Denton got to the throne. Now consider how slow it would be for any running character, no matter what the FRW, to get there. For instance, on my current ~9.5/10 map, WSK level 3 is done in maybe 2 seconds (2½ teleports), and not having Enigma would just, I think, slow things down to the point where it's just impossible to beat any well equipped light sorc. This is one of those things I kinda wished was true, because jesus would CoH would be fantastic with its massive resists and skills etc, but I think Enigma is simply completely necessary.

    Robby: I've tried it a bit so far and was unimpressed. You can count on me trying it more though, especially if people swear by it. Thanks.

    Edit:

    zerth: One route I considered was getting more physical damage and solving life/mana issues with leech, but I agree that's almost certainly not feasible. I definitely agree that, if that's what I end up with, Thunderstroke's partner should be a Monarch with plenty of facets. That said, Baal goes down really really quickly already, definitely quicker than in Denton's videos. About the IAS breakpoint, that's definitely something to test. Right now, I'm strongly leaning towards Highlord's Wrath (screenshots/etc in the original post were taken when weaing Cat's Eye); lightning resist should be the most important thing anyway, and that skill and 20 IAS is really quite sexy. +1 on testing TGod's more. Thanks a bunch for the input.

    nualum: Those numbers do help a lot, I haven't done any kind of math on this yet. Thanks a bunch.
     
  9. NagisaFurukawa

    NagisaFurukawa IncGamers Member

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    Re: Please help me with my Baal running Lightning zon! (Goal: sub 2 minutes)

    There is no chance of getting the JMoD, as I'm using it on my own Baal running LF amazon. :wink:

    How about this setup?

    Titan's Revenge (not ethereal/upgraded)
    Head Hunter's Glory (3x Resist of Fervor)
    Griffon's Eye (Rainbow Facet)
    'Enigma'
    Lancer's of Alacrity (or rare with mana/resistances)
    Razortail
    Resist/FHR Boots
    Mara's Kaleidoscope
    Raven Frost
    Bahamut's Ring of the Apprentice (or rare with FCR/mana/resistances)

    Switch: 'Call to Arms' + Lidless Wall

    Charms: No change, as I'm lazy.

    FCR: 35 (15 frames)
    FHR: 35 (7 frames)

    I'm pretty sure I run in MP games with even less FCR (25) and FHR (0) actually, and it's only been a problem once, when I teleported directly into Conviction Burning Souls. Brilliant, I know.

    In any case, that tidies up your resistances for the most part, while still giving you good IAS and damage. It's a skill or two short of your current, but the real noticeable jumps in CS damage only happen every 5 levels anyway, when the extra bolt becomes a factor.

    A pretty unorthodox setup, I'd imagine, but probably workable. :D
     
  10. Fabian

    Fabian IncGamers Member

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    Re: Please help me with my Baal running Lightning zon! (Goal: sub 2 minutes)

    1. Damn you maareek for not sending your items my way! (ldo)

    2. I'm definitely intrigued by the idea, at the very least, and I have a sneaking suspicion that if a JMoD is out of reach (which it really must be), a gemmed Monarch very well might be the best way to go, since it can solve problems like MPK, IAS and resists department, and while it might suffer when it comes to skills/FCR/FHR, it might possibly be worth it anyway? That said, a Spirit is pretty damn tough to beat when you're not under extraordinary circumstances, so who knows.

    Thanks for your input Nagisa, I think you know it's very appreciated :)
     
  11. Pyrohemia

    Pyrohemia IncGamers Member

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    Re: Please help me with my Baal running Lightning zon! (Goal: sub 2 minutes)

    Assuming that you are looking for record single-run times then you should use only thunderstrokes and put a cta or something on switch. If you want average times then you have it right with titans.

    The next IAS breakpoint is very important and worth losing the facet in your griffons. Try for an ambergris jewel of fervor to tie into my next point.

    Only go for lightning resists. Use all lightning resist small charms and depending upon the amount of stacking you desire highlords over cats eye and you will be good. With the power and range of a lightning amazon no other element will be any threat. It worked great on my second lighting amazon for Baal running.

    I believe that the next fcr breakpoint is just beyond where you are at the moment, but rather than going for a fcr/mpk ring which is what I used for cows instead of the beta BK, you are likely better off with a wizardspike/spirit combo on switch for teleporting to Baal. I think that I would advise thunderstrokes and wizardspike as your two switch weapons if you are going for individual record runs. Amazons as you have probably noticed teleport exceptionally slow.

    A faceted shield is likely your best bet for your main switch.
     
  12. EatSleepDiablo

    EatSleepDiablo IncGamers Member

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    Re: Please help me with my Baal running Lightning zon! (Goal: sub 2 minutes)

    Do not discount poison resists. Wave 2 can be a pain. Andy's solved mine, which I recommend.

    Tstrokes is nice, but CS with Titans is pretty efficient. Go for CTA because the build revolves around Infinity and merc must stay alive.

    I used Highlords initially, but replaced with +2 skills/resists/ML. Do not miss it.

    Thundergods with lightning absorb, skills, +max lightning is too good. Souls are your worst enemy outside Lister and the occasional conviction boss pack.

    Consider LoH for damage and fire resistance. Helps to keep ML/LL up.

    DemonLimb is another for AR and 400+- damage. Hitting things that are LI is nice when moron is running into walls somewhere behind you.


    Kicking around is my recent Mat thread that focused on the physical side as a back up attack. If you find it, ignore the advice on skill layout. Go pure lightning with extra points into pierce (thanks Nagis).

    1,100 Baal runs and counting. Level 97 and a quarter. 4,000 runs to go.
     
  13. Greebo

    Greebo IncGamers Member

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    Re: Please help me with my Baal running Lightning zon! (Goal: sub 2 minutes)

    Well, that may be a dumb idea, but:

    You need what, 12 teleports to get to the throne? (On a good map. A great map could be 8 I think, but not sure.) And maybe 4 seconds to stop by Larzuk and click Repair All? That's a conservative assumption and I think it's faster than that... Every second run for 25 charges from Amulet/Circlet.

    It might just be worth it to get TP off charges, _especially_ if you're going for a single result (i.e. the fastest run) not an average result, as Pyro discusses.

    Then you open a whole new set of possibilities with CoH at the top of the list allowing for crazy things in the shield department, or whatever.

    --Greebo
     
  14. NagisaFurukawa

    NagisaFurukawa IncGamers Member

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    Re: Please help me with my Baal running Lightning zon! (Goal: sub 2 minutes)

    I did not read the whole thread very thoroughly, but what is your solution for those occasional unbreakable, such as LI Lister? Let the mercenary handle it?

    It is true that the poison hurts is very annoying, but you can avoid it a decent amount of the time with good positioning. I can not remember where, but I think Albatross (?) posted a very nice image to demonstrate this recently. In any case, I have an amazon just like yours now, and she keeps a column devoted to Antidote for when needed. A nice thing is that they drop very commonly in the runs, so you do not have much trouble with restocking. :)

    EDIT: Found it. That is a little left of where I like to park myself, but you get the idea.


     
  15. Pyrohemia

    Pyrohemia IncGamers Member

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    Re: Please help me with my Baal running Lightning zon! (Goal: sub 2 minutes)

    Poison is absolutely not an issue. All that wave two takes is two quick Lighting Fury throws (with infinity) and you can throw from off screen. I like to (or rather liked to when I played my 'zon) stand even farther away from the the throne than albatross shows in his screenshots as linked by Nagisa. I found that my lighting amazon could stand far enough back to never get poisoned while my sorceress had to stay a bit closer and would occasionally get poisoned. You want to make sure your mercenary is carefully positioned between you and the wave in this position because of the limited conviction range.

    Even though you are throwing from a long distance away in this position and the travel time could slow down your run compared to a point blank throw, you can time your throws slightly before the wave appears such that they spawn on top of your Lightning Fury. I'm not sure whether this is of any importance, though, because such instantaneous hits do not seem to get the benefit of conviction which seems to take a moment to activate.
     
  16. thefranklin

    thefranklin IncGamers Member

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    Re: Please help me with my Baal running Lightning zon! (Goal: sub 2 minutes)

    Before you try a gemmed monarch, I would use a 1.07 magic tower shield with 3 holes in it. Pick your prefix/suffix and pray for a good Larzuk roll. Remember that 1.07's deflection suffix lacks fbr.

    If you can't get a hold of JMOD, know that JTSOD are shoppable in the current patch.
     
  17. Marvel

    Marvel IncGamers Member

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    Re: Please help me with my Baal running Lightning zon! (Goal: sub 2 minutes)

    I have been running baal with my lf zon trying to get the best times im currently at 2:10 but i can do it faster =)
     
  18. Fabian

    Fabian IncGamers Member

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    Re: Please help me with my Baal running Lightning zon! (Goal: sub 2 minutes)

    I recorded two test runs to give everyone an idea on what's going on, and as it happened, they both turned out reasonably well:



    I'm not quite sure how to "officially" time them (input?), but I believe the runs are around 2:12 and 2:20, respectively.

    Quick rundown on equipment for those runs is I use Wizardspike/Spirit on one switch and Titan's/Spirit (a Faceted Monarch is in the works) on the other. Highlord's, Enigma, low roll Griffon's with Fervor Jewel, Raven Frost, beta BKWB, 3/20 gloves, tri resist boot, Thundergod's. 8 skillers.

    As you can tell, me playing without a CtA is a bit.. hazardous :) At least it works out these times. Mana is an issue for me though, I strongly dislike being so dependant on mana potions and contantly having to manage my belt etc. Oh well.

    As you also can tell, there's still plenty of room for improvement!

    Any thoughts/feedback? Thanks for watching.
     
  19. nepeta

    nepeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: Please help me with my Baal running Lightning zon! (Goal: sub 2 minutes)

    Hard to see where you still could save time. A better map might save you 2 or 3 seconds, but aside from that... Try breaking down you runs: town, teleporting, clearing throne, time per wave, baal, and try different setups to see where you can improve.

    From what I observed in your vid, it seemed the teleporting was rather slow, so perhaps a FCR-switch and a kill-switch with 20/20+thunder?

    And as sexy as a JMoD sounds, I think it's wasted on a zon, when does it ever have to block? With teleporting into packs it might be a bit more of an issue, but with static maps you shouldn't do that :p
     
  20. DarkChaos

    DarkChaos IncGamers Member

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    Re: Please help me with my Baal running Lightning zon! (Goal: sub 2 minutes)

    Level her up more for moar damage. Your bottleneck is actually getting to Baal and waiting for minion waves though. I'm fairly certain a sub-2:00 run is possible by a lightning zon, and possibly a lightning sorc. Aman has run around 2:10 or so with his light zon so it's doable - now you just gotta get a perfect map and a perfect run and you'll be at 2:00 no problem!

    Good luck with your endeavour :)
     

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