phase blade vs chu-ko-nu for fire claws

waflob

Diabloii.Net Member
phase blade vs chu-ko-nu for fire claws

Hi all,
reading the accepted wisdom concerning fire claw bears, it seems that the end game weapon is a 6 socket phase blade, with at least 4 shaels in it. The ideal ias is 110% for 4 frame attack speed.

Looking at the stats for the crossbow, it has a base speed of -60, as opposed to -30 for the phase blade. What difference does this make in real terms ? Is it twice as fast ? (probably not, but what does -60 and -30 actually mean ?). The max sockets for the bow is 5, so one less than the sword. What would the required ias be for max attack speed with the bow ?

Does this also gives different possibilities for using missile weapon rune words (eg ice, edge) ? I mean, imagine a fire claw bear using ice (holy freeze aura) and a might merc. Dangerous combination ...

I realise that this prevents using a shield, which could be the main drawback.
Any and all constructive feedback welcome.

Lastly, just to confirm, the ias doesn't all have to be in the weapon does it ? I can have ias gloves (eg lavagout, 20% ias) and then need only 90% to complete (in the case of the phase blade) ?

DelBoy

ps - pvm in case that makes a difference ...
 

Beowulf

Diabloii.Net Member
Unfortunatly in wereform (wolf or bear) speed off the weapon means little most often, especially when the weapon is a very fast one. Most people use the phase since it gives you the option of a shield.
 
Sorry m8 you need a billion off weap IAS to reach 110% on weap IAS.

The reason that no one uses the cho-ku-nu is because (after what I know) that it has a capped FPA, and so with all crossbows I guess. I think it is on 11 fpa or something, but I can look it up for you if I shall?

EDIT: It seems like I was wrong with the capped FPA, here is the results I got:
CHOKUNU
WIAS FPA
0% 9
2% 8
7% 7
23% 6
63% 5
91% 4
 

waflob

Diabloii.Net Member
Thanks for the fast replies.
Lazy_BerZerker said:
Sorry m8 you need a billion off weap IAS to reach 110% on weap IAS.
I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean ? Sorry, I'm being a bit dense atm.

Lazy_BerZerker said:
CHOKUNU
WIAS FPA
0% 9
2% 8
7% 7
23% 6
63% 5
91% 4
Interesting - so the difference between the bow and sword is about 20% for 4 frames, or 1 shael, which is the extra socket on the sword. With the option of then using a shield as well, seems the sword has a big advantage (and is indestructible)

Still leaves the rune word option open though. Maybe I'll have to experiment a bit and see what happens.

Thanks once again for the great info

DelBoy
 
Lazy_BerZerker said:
Sorry m8 you need a billion off weap IAS to reach 110% on weap IAS.
I mean you need a billion IAS to reach the same FPA as what 110% WIAS gives with a phace blade :) so no your 20% IAS gloves won't help. :p
 

Aerath

Diabloii.Net Member
Since noone else explained yet just what that weapon speed means...

Diablo II uses 25 frames/second.

Each attack uses a certain amount of Frames Per Attack.
This varies per class and attack. Each attack has 'breakpoints' where it will faster by 1 frame.

Fireclaws starts at a fairly normal pace and goes to 4 FPA (so about 6 attacks/second).

To reach such a low FPA, you need to have IAS. For other classes, pretty much every IAS will do, but Druids are annoying and largely ignore everything but weapon speed.

IAS is added together with Weapon Speed to arrive at a total number, which is compared to 'breakpoints'. Each breakpoint lowers the attack time by one frame per attack. The breakpoint for the fastest Fireclaws attack (from the top of my head) lies at 110 total Weapon Speed/IAS.

Weapon speed is any IAS on the weapon, so in the case of the Ribcracker this would be 50. Add a Shael in a socket and we're up to 70. The attack speed of a Ribcracker is 0; so if we add that all together we get a total IAS of 70.

Note that IAS -reduces- the attack time, so weapons with a -negative- attack speed on the Arreat Summit list are faster than ones with a positive attack speed.

(If it's more comfortable for you, substract everything from the base attack and then swap the value around... So we'd wind up at 0 (Weapon Speed) - 50 (Weapon IAS) - 20 (Shael) = -70 for the Ribcracker.

Now if we want to know the breakpoint that hits, we turn that around into a +70 and then go look at this calculator for the final FPA.

I'm fairly sure that the various FPA's are listed somewhere here in this forum in a guide or two, but this calculator is readily accessible and very easy to use.

--

Which of course brings us to the reason a 6 Shael Phase is so popular.
1) It's cheap
2) A Phase blade already has an incredibly fast attack speed on its own)
3) It can get 6 sockets, * 6 Shaels = easily hit fastest attack breakpoint.
4) With FireClaws, physical damage is irrelevant, so that's not a downside on the PhaseBlade.
5) Also, since FC hits so incredibly fast, you wear down durability fast as well. This is not an issue with PhaseBlades
6) As you rightly noted, PhaseBlades allow you to wear shields =)

Hope this clarifies things =)
 

waflob

Diabloii.Net Member
Aerath said:
To reach such a low FPA, you need to have IAS. For other classes, pretty much every IAS will do, but Druids are annoying and largely ignore everything but weapon speed.
Aha - that is the missing information ...
Suddenly the fog has lifted and everything becomes clear. Thank you.

Aerath said:
This calculator is readily accessible and very easy to use.
Hope this clarifies things =)
Yes it is, yes it is and yes it does. I've bookmarked it for future use.

But seriously, thanks for taking the time to explain that. It is very much appreciated.

DelBoy
 

RTB

Diabloii.Net Member
Aerath said:
5) Also, since FC hits so incredibly fast, you wear down durability fast as well. This is not an issue with PhaseBlades
Bows and crossbows are also indestructible when used in melee.
 

Aerath

Diabloii.Net Member
Hadn't noticed that (didn't use my Buritawolf too much really...), but considering a great many other options possible for Fury, you sure notice it when finally you can upgrade to something without durability ;)
 

eelnala

Diabloii.Net Member
Additional Question

Thanks for the great explaination about attack speed up there Aerath. It was very helpful.

I had a quick related question though. I've never actually made a druid before, so excuse me if this is something that I should know.


All of this talk about fire claws has me wanting to start my first druid. But why do I get the impression that it doesn't matter whether I choose bear or wolf? I would think that with the wolf's faster attack speed, everyone would be using that. Or is it that a 6 shael phase blade lets you hit 4 fpa in either form? In which case, the bear is the clear winner with life.



Thank you
 

lCE

Diabloii.Net Member
No, im pretty sure 6 shael phase only reaches 5 fpa fireclaws on a wolf. Sounds weird but this is how it is :lol: , thats why u see only FC bears, id yet to see a FC wolf.
 

eelnala

Diabloii.Net Member
lCE said:
No, im pretty sure 6 shael phase only reaches 5 fpa fireclaws on a wolf. Sounds weird but this is how it is :lol: , thats why u see only FC bears, id yet to see a FC wolf.

That's weird. If they were exactly the same speed, I'd still choose the bear. But I figured with the wolf's inherent speed boost, it was a sure winner. How could it actually be slower?

Oh well, who am I kidding. I've only saved up like 4 shaels in the last month. I'm poor, but I can still dream.

Thanks
 

Aerath

Diabloii.Net Member
Wolf and Bear have different breakpoints, there's your answer :)

For obtaining Shaels, run the Nightmare Countess a bit.

FC Wolves tend to go with Fury (Crushing Blow) as backup generally [at least, I think they do ;], and tend to have much better AR than Bears. I found AR to be a bit of a problem on my bear unless I really made sure I got every possible bit of AR gear I could lay my paws on :)
 

eelnala

Diabloii.Net Member
So for IAS, we don’t need any on the gloves, ammy, etc? Those 6 shaels will give the bear 4 fpa? That seems a little too good to be true.

Also, if wolves use fury for backup, do bears use maul? I would choose rabies, but my failed poison javazon has turned me off of poison. It just can’t seem to hurt anybody in Hell mode.

Thanks
 
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