People with Power

[oodjob]

People with Power

Yesterday, I was at my job (a restaurant) talking to the bartender who said he makes more money than all the managers there. He said he makes over 40% more money than they do, and that this ratio was not uncommon at all.

This made me ask, why are they managing rather than bartending? He said the answer was simple: they loved the power trip.

This made me think for a while. Ignoring any other reasons (for example, getting managerial experience so that they can make more money in a different restaurant later), why do you think people are willing to invest more time and make less money simply so that they can have control over others?

The problem I saw is that many managers I have known did not even exercise their power that much. They simply used it to get things done, not to empower themselves (then again, I could be misreading people).

Another question to ask is, out of every ordinary joe you find on the street, how many would be willing to sacrifice or suffer in order to position themselves in a place of power and let it go to their head?

 

[buttershug]

Re: People with Power

A lot of managers can be replaced by a magic 8 ball.

Excellent bar tenders are a lot harder to find.
(even ones you can trick into thinking they make more than the managers.)

 

[Glurin]

Re: People with Power

I agree. The higher up the managerial ladder you go, the fewer technical skills you need.

 

[Kaysaar]

Re: People with Power

Most of the managers at the restaurants where I worked have all been paid fairly well - far better than any hourly employee. I think that the biggest reason to take a managerial path is that there is the opportunity for advancement (at least through chain restaurants). Skilled and diligent managers can become area or regional directors in ten years or so - effectively doubling their pay at restaurants like Chili's or Olive Garden.

 

[PFSS]

Re: People with Power

Yesterday, I was at my job (a restaurant) talking to the bartender who said he makes more money than all the managers there. He said he makes over 40% more money than they do, and that this ratio was not uncommon at all.

This made me ask, why are they managing rather than bartending? He said the answer was simple: they loved the power trip.

A while ago I was talking to a friend of mine from High School, he is now working as a teacher in a State School in London. He was telling me he earns 35,000 quid a year as a teacher.

Thing is, my mum is a deputy head-teacher and I know that in the UK there is a fairly rigid pay structure, which puts you on a specific pay packet and benefits package based on your position and responsibilities with very little leeway. There is no way the guy was on more than 25,000 quid.

Some people make up stuff about how much they and those around them earn.

I agree. The higher up the managerial ladder you go, the fewer technical skills you need.

It might depend on the field - I work in a very technical field and almost all the senior management (In companies I have worked for) have been technically excellent. There is also the issue that at particular points in the management chain you are taking legal responsibility for the technical work of those below you, so you really do have to know your stuff.

 

[Dondrei]

Re: People with Power

Are you sure he said state school and not public school? They say public when they mean private... crazy bastards...

The higher you climb the ladder the more the original skills that brought you onboard atrophy. Basically all they really want is people skills and experience in the business, which makes you wonder why everyone has to waste all those years at Uni learning skills that are only of benefit to you on the bottom rungs.

 

[PFSS]

Re: People with Power

Are you sure he said state school and not public school? They say public when they mean private... crazy bastards...

100% Sure.

Also "Public Schools" are a (generally) more exclusive sub-set of "Private Schools".

The higher you climb the ladder the more the original skills that brought you onboard atrophy.

True, when I first graduated half the partners at my first company had never designed anything in the Metric System...

 

[buttershug]

Re: People with Power

Are you sure he said state school and not public school? They say public when they mean private... crazy bastards...

The higher you climb the ladder the more the original skills that brought you onboard atrophy. Basically all they really want is people skills and experience in the business, which makes you wonder why everyone has to waste all those years at Uni learning skills that are only of benefit to you on the bottom rungs.

And the better your technical skills the more likely you are too valuable to promote.
And the worse your technical skills the more you will work for an administration promotion.
In manufacturing I've found managers generally can't understand details of things three levels under them. but that does seem to be changing.

 

[jmervyn]

Re: People with Power

Good managers & leaders are worth every red cent of their paycheck. They're also few & far between, and I've numerous examples of "feces floats" management. Far too often the belief that promoting someone because of job skill or seniority leads to disaster; managers and leaders are made rather than born, but many people don't have the basic skills or morals and aren't decent raw material from the onset.

Since I've got perspective from the other side of the lens as well, I can comfortably state that I'm not a very good leader. I don't care enough about my subordinates' well being and happiness, and at the same time I don't treat them as harshly as a proper bastage should... one of my troops said I was far too nice to be an Infantry Officer. And being "go along, get along" isn't the best scenario for achieving top results.

However, there's definitely a potential for power tripping, particularly in the military - when you're leading a platoon in the attack it can be a rush that might only be imagined after watching some of the recruitment videos or playing some FPS games.

 

[Johnny]

Re: People with Power

Managers don't produce anything.

If I work for 1 hour then the company can charge the contractor for 1 hour of work. I get my pay and the company gets their share. Now a "work leader" on the other hand. The company can't charge money for him. Just hope that he can improve the other workers performance and so earn his pay to the company.

 

[Garbad_the_Weak]

Re: People with Power

Ironically, ~115 IQ football players can expect to earn more and get promoted more than the ~145 IQ computer/math geeks, because the truth is technical skill is relatively cheap. What's not cheap are people who can lead, form social connections, work in groups, make a big decision and justify it, and so on. Despite the fact that so many people fail at it, that's why management gets paid so much (in higher end work, anyhow) and why you can almost always outsource technical ability to india or a recent college grad for half the price.

 

[oodjob]

Re: People with Power

Some people make up stuff about how much they and those around them earn.

I have now talked to four different people claiming that the bartenders make more money than the managers from four different restaurants, three of whom were not bartenders. Although it is possible they are wrong or lying, I believe there is some truth behind it.

Several posts mention that although managers lack technical skills, they have the necessary leader skills that brings in more money. From my experience (I am 18 and have worked at four different restaurants so I can only speak in terms of the food industry) I have met a total of 12 managers, ranging from high to low positions. Out of all of them, I would not say any had particular "leading" skills. At best I would say that some were friendly, some were downright annoying. Instead of leading, they actually had every technical skill that one needed within the restaurant from quick bartending, hosting, running, waiting, expo, to-go, etc. which they provided when needed.

As far as the power goes, at most they would get on to a worker if they made a mistake, however, nothing more.

From my experience, managers work way more hours, get paid less than some lower employees, do not exercise their power much, and generally help when they can (although some are a downright annoyance). Perhaps this is only the food industry?

 

[Dondrei]

Re: People with Power

100% Sure.

Also "Public Schools" are a (generally) more exclusive sub-set of "Private Schools".

They make even less sense than Americans sometimes.

True, when I first graduated half the partners at my first company had never designed anything in the Metric System...

I was interviewed by the head of the department when I first joined up. He quizzed me a bit about the sorts of models I'd used at Uni, so off the top of my head I mentioned ANOVA. He said something like "hmm... I have to try to remember what that is...". ANOVA is first year stats...

Then again, I never ended up using anything more sophisticated than a t-test.

And the better your technical skills the more likely you are too valuable to promote.
And the worse your technical skills the more you will work for an administration promotion.
In manufacturing I've found managers generally can't understand details of things three levels under them. but that does seem to be changing.

I'm lucky to work in a business with a flat org structure in many ways. Three levels is about all there is between me and the head of our department.

Ironically, ~115 IQ football players can expect to earn more and get promoted more than the ~145 IQ computer/math geeks, because the truth is technical skill is relatively cheap. What's not cheap are people who can lead, form social connections, work in groups, make a big decision and justify it, and so on. Despite the fact that so many people fail at it, that's why management gets paid so much (in higher end work, anyhow) and why you can almost always outsource technical ability to india or a recent college grad for half the price.

But football players don't have any of those skills.

Does your IQ system work differently from all the ones I've encountered?

 

[jmervyn]

Re: People with Power

From my experience, managers work way more hours, get paid less than some lower employees, do not exercise their power much, and generally help when they can (although some are a downright annoyance). Perhaps this is only the food industry?

I think you must consider sampling error. A "hot chick" bartender will quite probably make more from the souses than the manager does, since her additional pay is off the books (and sometimes is due to a pseudo-prostitution angle on the part of the clientele). A favorite bartender in a place trying to replicate the Cheers show will likewise receive fairly good tips. But you're going to hear about both examples, while not hearing about how the guy at the corner bar makes about as much as the cappuccino monkey at the local Starbucks.

Public school principals frequently make less than their senior faculty. They have none of the union protections, all of the legal exposure, and very little organizational support. One wonders why our school system is the way it is...

 

[PFSS]

Re: People with Power

I have now talked to four different people claiming that the bartenders make more money than the managers from four different restaurants, three of whom were not bartenders. Although it is possible they are wrong or lying, I believe there is some truth behind it.

I might be wrong, but it just sounds very very odd. They might believe they are right, but it just doesn't fit.

Consider - most people who are managing these bars at one time worked as bartenders. So were presumably earning this higher wage, but then decided to take a 40% pay cut... You have to be earning A LOT before a 40% pay cut does not have a huge impact on your lifestyle.

Ironically, ~115 IQ football players can expect to earn more and get promoted more than the ~145 IQ computer/math geeks, because the truth is technical skill is relatively cheap. What's not cheap are people who can lead, form social connections, work in groups, make a big decision and justify it, and so on. Despite the fact that so many people fail at it, that's why management gets paid so much (in higher end work, anyhow) and why you can almost always outsource technical ability to india or a recent college grad for half the price.

Ah - so Fashion models are highly paid because of their leadership abilities?

They make even less sense than Americans sometimes.

Don't forget about...
Grammar Schools (State funded schools with an academic entry requirement)

City Academies (State funded schools which are independent, not bound so tightly by the national curriculum, which can also be part private funded by companies and academically select some of their students - these were introduced to replace the really ****ty schools in some inner city areas)

City Technology Colleges (Like academies but without an academic selection or funding from companies)

Church/Faith Schools - Schools partly or fully funded by an organized religion, who are also able to get the state to help out with their funding and can largely select their pupils based on the kids religion.

College - Schools that only teach kids aged 16-18, as opposed to High Schools who teach from 10-18.

College - A subsection of a larger university, like Oxford and Cambridge.

There's a few others too

Public school principals frequently make less than their senior faculty. They have none of the union protections, all of the legal exposure, and very little organizational support. One wonders why our school system is the way it is.

In the UK the pay structure prevents this, with a fairly rigid system that includes provisions that the Deputy Head is by default paid more than the next highest earning member of the teaching staff at their school, and there is a minimum ratio from the Deputy Head's pay to the Head's pay.

 

[Johnny]

Re: People with Power

Public school principals frequently make less than their senior faculty. They have none of the union protections, all of the legal exposure, and very little organizational support. One wonders why our school system is the way it is...

Yes that's right. The american school system is crap because the unions get the teachers the pay they deserve.

 

[Dondrei]

Re: People with Power

Don't forget about...
Grammar Schools (State funded schools with an academic entry requirement)

City Academies (State funded schools which are independent, not bound so tightly by the national curriculum, which can also be part private funded by companies and academically select some of their students - these were introduced to replace the really ****ty schools in some inner city areas)

City Technology Colleges (Like academies but without an academic selection or funding from companies)

Church/Faith Schools - Schools partly or fully funded by an organized religion, who are also able to get the state to help out with their funding and can largely select their pupils based on the kids religion.

College - Schools that only teach kids aged 16-18, as opposed to High Schools who teach from 10-18.

College - A subsection of a larger university, like Oxford and Cambridge.

There's a few others too

What a freakin' mess.

 

[stillman]

Re: People with Power

A note on IQ scores:

The Inteligent Quotent test (IQ test) is not designed to see who is smarter. It was designed to compare normal, average people's IQ (about 100) to the IQ scores of brain damaged people. So the test is designed to help determine how cognitively imparing the brain damage is.

So modest mental retardation is when a person achieves IQ scores between 30-50 IIRC. Mild mental retardation is between 50-70. And severe mental retardation is <30. I might be off on the exact ranges, as dry numbers are not fun to memorize, but the main point is the IQ test is not a test to see who is more brilliant.

So if your IQ score is 100 it means you have no mental retardation. If your IQ is 196, it means you have no mental retardation. If it is 214, again, you have no mental retardation.

The IQ test is divided into sections that test math, vocabulary, visuospatial skills, etc. It is key to keep in mind that every last one of us can GREATLY increase our IQ scores simply by studying for the test. You can, for instance, learn a few hundred new words and definitions, and you can expect to gain a much higher IQ score on your next testing.

People often think it is remarkable when a child gets a very high IQ score. Keep in mind that children are in their 'element' at the time they are taking the trest. That is, they are students, they are studying almost everday, they have written other tests recently, they are in the accademic swing of things. Thus, it should not be a big surpirise that they do well at something they've been practicing full time.

A high IQ score usually just means that someone put serious effort into getting a good score. The same can be done for any test. A high IQ score does not make you 'smarter' or genetically better suited to accademic ability than those around you.

 

[jmervyn]

Re: People with Power

Yes that's right. The american school system is crap because the unions get the teachers the pay they deserve.

Deserve?

I work in a school, laddie, and it's an award-winning one to boot. I have numerous teachers in my family, and I'm a member of one of the NEA derivatives. And I say to you: teachers are MASSIVELY, OVERWHELMINGLY overpaid for what little good they do.

Cops and firemen have far greater skill sets, exponentially greater risk, and actually work year 'round, but they get a pittance compared to the luxurious salaries that many teachers receive. Many of the teachers make more than I do, without the same sort of qualifications, experience, skill sets, and, not to be braggadocios, with far lower IQ's.

I can't be bothered to put it much better than the venom queen herself does.

"At private schools, 80 percent of the personnel are teachers. By contrast, at public schools only about 50 percent of the personnel are actual teachers -- most of the rest are cogs in the endless layers of machinery of the "education" bureaucracy. This would be like having 26 full-time coaches for a 26-man baseball team." -- P.152

"Nonetheless, comparing hourly wages based on the teachers' self-reports, Vedder says, "Teachers earn more per hour than architects, civil engineers, mechanical engineers, statisticians, biological and life scientists, atmospheric and space scientists, registered nurses, physical therapists, university level foreign-language teachers, librarians, technical writers, musicians, artists, and editors and reporters." -- P.157

"Teachers in the private sector earn about 60 percent less than public school teachers. And their students actually learn to read." -- P.158

"All told," Vedder says, "teachers average hourly compensation plus benefits exceeds the average for all professional workers by roughly 10-15 percent." -- P.159

"Between 1982 and 2001, spending on New York City Public schools increased by more than 300 percent, clocking in at $11,474 per pupil annually. Only Washington, D.C., that hotbed of educational achievement, spends more per student. By contrast, the average tuition for private elementary schools is less than $4,000 and around $6,000 for private secondary schools." -- P.163

"Analyzing the data from a survey by the American Association of University Women Educational Foundation, statistics professor Charol Shakeshaft estimates that between 1991 and 2000, roughly 290,000 students were subjected to physical and sexual abuse by teachers or other school personnel. In her report for the U.S. Department of Education, Shakeshaft says that about one in every ten American children has been sexually abused in some way at school. Compare that with Catholic priests. A study by the U.S conference of Catholic Bishops said that 10,667 allegations of sexual abuse of children had been made between 1950 and 2002." -- P.168

 

[stillman]

Re: People with Power

To the OP:

One of the many reasons I want to become a medical doctor is for the raw power: knowing the whole town's secrets, making life changing decisions, that sort of thing. Does that answer your question?

Certainly, there is money to be made and a high demand for doctors where I live, but there are better ways to make a fortune. If you take a trade, let's say take 2 years to become a plumber, you make, idk, 30 dollars an hour and I'm told it's going up. Someone told me recently that if you become a doctor, by the time you get through your 8-10 years of university, AND pay off your student loans, you will only be catching up to the wealth that tradesmen have by the age fo 60 or so. So chosing to become a doctor is something you should do only if you really feel passionate about it. It's not all about money; if I wanted money, I'd become a tradesman, RN, or w/e, and start banking.

Yes, for some, power is more valuable than money. Doctors have a form of power that in some ways, is greater than even politicians' power. A politician can hold people's livlihoods in his hands and help many people through his decisions. But can a politican save a life directly? Can he crack someone's chest open and rescue them from certain death? No. Plus, doctors learn how to live longer fuller lives using their knowledge. A politicain's power goes to zero the moment he has a stroke and loses his speach and writing abilities.