Pay to play or free to fail?

Pay to Play D3 online?

  • 5$ per month for online play

    Votes: 16 9.9%
  • 10$ per month for online play

    Votes: 5 3.1%
  • 15$ per month for online play

    Votes: 11 6.8%
  • Completely free online play

    Votes: 130 80.2%

  • Total voters
    162

Krugar

Banned
Re: Pay to play or free to fail?

Well, on this point I disagree NASE.

They may end up making part of the game folklore. Some even may be fondly remembered. But a bug is a bug, is a bug (as they would say). Shameful always, even if sometimes understandable.

I do not have any tender memories of any bugs on Diablo, or any other game for that matter. Most particularly when these affected game balance. And Diablo 2 did have its share of horrific bugs that should have been addressed faster than they were. I was always an advocate of hotfixes to be added to games along with regular aggregate patches. Instead of having to wait 3-6 months for them to collect and work on 50 bugs at a time, I'd get an hotfix as soon as the bug had been corrected and later I could download the patch (service pack, if you may) which included all these hotfixes and then some more.

Diablo 2 would indeed not have been the same without some of the bugs you mention. But it would have been something else. And more fun than it sometimes was.
 

NASE

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Pay to play or free to fail?

They can offcourse release hotfixes if that would be appropriate. The main question, how fast do you want a bugged fixed from the time that someone is aware of the bug?

I don't play wow, yet I can assume that people panic over at blizzard, hire an interim programmer just to get things fixed within 3 days? Or something like that? And I believe people assume this, they expect this for 15$ a month. And this is a good thing for wow.
Now, if we can life for over 3 years with the current bugs, would it be a problem if we had to wait 1 month to fix the bug? They fix bugs as they go, and when new bugs are found, they are thrown on the stack and fixed when they reach the bottom. And if that takes longer, I don't see the problem.


It's a difference in approach and team size that matters. Diablo III can function with a much smaller team size if we don't nag about bugs or imbalances that has to be fixed within 3 days. And then, we don't need to pay as much.
 

mordred

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Pay to play or free to fail?

I don't understand people that are happy about paying for everything and asking for it!
It's my opinion that every online play should be for free (except MMO which are selling their online value) for every game... It's a motive for someone to buy the game and have an unique key to play. Personaly if there is a monthly fee I won't buy the game at all...
 

Krugar

Banned
Re: Pay to play or free to fail?

Personaly if there is a monthly fee I won't buy the game at all...
It's a possibility for me as well. Even though I do not play online and, as such, a monthly fee wouldn't affect me the least, as a consumer I'd probably decide to not award a company that behaved in such a way. It's not that my life wouldn't be the same without Diablo. There's way more interesting things out there. And they don't even fall into the computer games category.

Regardless, my opinion frankly is that the whole debate is pretty mute. Diablo simply isn't that type of game. There won't be any fee. Neither blizzard wants to go hostile on a large number of their consumers.


 

DarkChaos

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Pay to play or free to fail?

There are a few trolls in this thread and I think we should not feed them, namely the OP and apedog. However, for the sake of discussion:

I'm in the same boat as a lot of others.

I don't mind paying to play, and I've held multiple WoW accounts open at the same time, but if Diablo III is pay-to-play I would consider not buying it as it takes quite a large time-investment in the game to get your money's worth.

Again, if D3 is pay-to-play, a lot of customers will not bother buying the game and the subsequent expansions. Kids who live with their parents don't have credit cards and have no way of paying even a $5 fee, not to mention their parents won't want to pay monthly for their kids to play a game.

Students, which, together with kids, I'd guess is the majority of the playerbase, would also likely either pirate the game or choose to play something else.

That leaves quite few people, and although I find the "idiot bnet kiddies" (the ones who join every game and try to duel you, ask "WUG?" and then call you a noob when you play a character other than an Enigma hammerdin) annoying I think they are essential to D3 as they have been to D2, and have been so in WoW - a pay-to-play game, although markedly less, I'll admit.
 

CBK

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Pay to play or free to fail?

It's a possibility for me as well. Even though I do not play online and, as such, a monthly fee wouldn't affect me the least, as a consumer I'd probably decide to not award a company that behaved in such a way. It's not that my life wouldn't be the same without Diablo. There's way more interesting things out there. And they don't even fall into the computer games category.

Regardless, my opinion frankly is that the whole debate is pretty mute. Diablo simply isn't that type of game. There won't be any fee. Neither blizzard wants to go hostile on a large number of their consumers.
I am dissapointed to read that from you Krugar. I would like to point some things I think people have missed out on.(and they are not opinion-based)

First thing I want to point out, is the way you people look at P2P. Rather, look at it this way, you are not paying for a game, you are paying for entertainment. Just like cable t.v., movies, and such. HOWEVER, as Krugar said before, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO, and I repeat NOTHING to do with how many hacks the game can have.

I might get my post edited(or banned) but I can name numerous hacks I used on WoW, between the AV bot, which most of the population of WoW still uses to some degree(gg WoW PvP), and others that made you able to fly on places like ogrimmar. Most of this hacks are still usable and work perfectly on the game. The reason that people don't hack in WoW is not because it has the most updated anti-hack system as you people seem to think, it's really much cheapier than that actually!

The true reason WoW has not so many hacks compared to other games is not because of its huge income, it's because you agree on the ToU to have a freaking spyware on your computer checking the registries of what you are doing to check you are not hacking. Yes, reread your Terms of Use you WoW players. That is a FACT. Many antiviruses detect it as a spyware, because it works exactly like one!(gathering private information and such)

The truth is, the money from P2P in WoW goes to paying those people who are always making new content for the game, new mechanics and fixing bugs(also for maintaining the huge servers), which WoW being such a huge MMO(christ sake it takes more disk space than Vista!) game has countless bug-holes compared to most games out there.

Diablo 3 won't be P2P for that same reason, they said it already. The will, however, charge for things like character rename and stuff like that. Keep in mind Diablo 3 is a ARPG, not a MMO, so hence, it will not be P2P and will still be a great success.

EDIT: However, believe it or not, my personal opinion is that I don't mind paying or not. I have a job, gaming is my way of entertainment(much cheapier than t.v. actually) and either way I'll buy the game. For sake, I played WoW 3 years and diablo 2 for 5! I have one of the original diablo 2 copies with the hard cd case that had an extra slot for a fourth CD that the game didn't have!

Oh and sorry for my terri-bad english.



 

Krugar

Banned
Re: Pay to play or free to fail?

I'm not sure how am I disappointing you. We basically agree on every point :)

Only exception being...

Diablo 3 won't be P2P for that same reason, they said it already. The will, however, charge for things like character rename and stuff like that. Keep in mind Diablo 3 is a ARPG, not a MMO, so hence, it will not be P2P and will still be a great success.
I don't think there is any official comment on P2P yet. Hence the debate resurfacing once and a while. My opinion is that it won't be P2P of course. Makes zero sense to me if it would. But truth be told, my opinion at this point is as valid as anyone's else.
 

CBK

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Pay to play or free to fail?

I was dissapointed because you wouldn't buy it if it was P2P.

They said most probably it wouldn't be. However, you are right, it wasn't an official comment.

However I just felt like pointing out, as a progammer point of view, WoW's really cheap in terms of managing exploits. The true thing I workship about WoW is the low loading cycles you have to go through for such wonderful scenery changes you can get through the world itself. It's just amazing how they did it.
 

Krugar

Banned
Re: Pay to play or free to fail?

I was dissapointed because you wouldn't buy it if it was P2P.
Ah, that.

Yeah. It's probably the case. I'm pretty adamant about my rights as a consumer on about anything. Computer games being no exception.

You see, although I may refer to my fanhood towards Blizzard work, I do use the word 'fan' very liberally. Blizzard is first and foremost a business. They never gave me anything for free neither I was ever invited over for dinner. I'm just not friends with them. As long as they stick to their end of the deal, I'll be happy to buy their stuff and consequently show my approving and supportive nod. And that's the extent of my interest on them. If they start to look like they are trying to grab more than they deserve, I'll show my back instantly. No second thoughts whatsoever. There's plenty other gaming companies out there, many of them very deserving of our attention too. And there is also a world outside computer games. I'm as detached as that.


 

Pwnage

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Pay to play or free to fail?

I will not play DIII if there is a monthly fee, the price for the game itself will be plenty enough as it is, this isn't wow. DII servers ran fine back in the day when the game was popular and you had blizzard reps available. Sure you would have the occassional server crashs and down time for maintenance and patches but I never minded it seemed part of the whole online experience. DII was free and that definitely didn't fail still one of the most common games installed on desktops today 9 years later. Boo monthly fees!
 

Akimbo

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Pay to play or free to fail?

You see, although I may refer to my fanhood towards Blizzard work, I do use the word 'fan' very liberally. Blizzard is first and foremost a business. They never gave me anything for free neither I was ever invited over for dinner. I'm just not friends with them. As long as they stick to their end of the deal, I'll be happy to buy their stuff and consequently show my approving and supportive nod. And that's the extent of my interest on them. If they start to look like they are trying to grab more than they deserve, I'll show my back instantly. No second thoughts whatsoever. There's plenty other gaming companies out there, many of them very deserving of our attention too. And there is also a world outside computer games. I'm as detached as that.
Pretty much.

I won't buy D3 if it's Pay-to-Play, just don't think it'd be worth it no matter how good the game was.
 

Norrec

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Pay to play or free to fail?

This has probably already been said.. but I promise you that D3 will NOT be pay-to-play. It will not be an MMO like WoW. Just because it will be free to play doesnt mean that they wont be able to spend time/money to work on/fix any problems that will occur. Look at the billions of dollars Blizzard is making each month just off of Wow.. they have and will continue to accumulate the funding they need. And for those of you who said D2 was only fun for a year really arent true Diablo fans and shouldnt even be posting here... just sayin..
 

jel

Banned
Re: Pay to play or free to fail?

I'm just interested how many players would like to pay to play and thus have quality online gameplay.
Quality isn't proporsional to investment, it's only one variable, a much greater influence is how much the developer actually like the whole development process, and many more as well.

Anyway I don't think it should have been and "or" in your title, rather a "Pay to play and free to fail!"
(Note I haven't read the rest of the thread, this is just my almost unargumented opinion)

Edit: Oh and you'd try to look at the bigger picture, here's the two scenarios:

Game 1, free to player online: Very likely to attract a big crowd to begin with, if the game sucks, a lot will fall away. If you keep up the game to great standard these people will most likely stay and never or seldom try other online games that isn't free. Now why should you keep the standards up, as there's no profit? Given profit is the interest of the company behind the game, they should use the fact that their game collects a huge amount of people in a locateable spot, which means advertising can be sold for a lot of money, as many people will see these advertises, etc.
Game 2, pay to play: Not very likely to attract that many to begin with, unless a large investment have been made in making the game popular pre release which means a lot of money have to be gotten back through the pay to play system, meanwhile the game needs to keep its standards, which also costs, but not only profit, but a large profit needs to be made, to make the game economical realiseable, you don't want a game that takes years just to get to zero profit, especially when thinking about the competition there's out there, it's unlikely one can hold on the people who're already settled with the pay to play system.

Why does WoW then do so well? Because it's by far the most popular and keeps a standard which makes it so great, that the competition is very low, does other companies take this competition up to a degree that would threat WoW, it would pretty much make both game unprofitable in the long run, as more companies will join.


 

sbn

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Pay to play or free to fail?

You see, although I may refer to my fanhood towards Blizzard work, I do use the word 'fan' very liberally. Blizzard is first and foremost a business. They never gave me anything for free neither I was ever invited over for dinner. I'm just not friends with them. As long as they stick to their end of the deal, I'll be happy to buy their stuff and consequently show my approving and supportive nod. And that's the extent of my interest on them. If they start to look like they are trying to grab more than they deserve, I'll show my back instantly. No second thoughts whatsoever. There's plenty other gaming companies out there, many of them very deserving of our attention too. And there is also a world outside computer games. I'm as detached as that.
All I have to say to the above statement:

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:



 

Mcwhopper

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Pay to play or free to fail?

This has probably already been said.. but I promise you that D3 will NOT be pay-to-play. It will not be an MMO like WoW. Just because it will be free to play doesnt mean that they wont be able to spend time/money to work on/fix any problems that will occur. Look at the billions of dollars Blizzard is making each month just off of Wow.. they have and will continue to accumulate the funding they need. And for those of you who said D2 was only fun for a year really arent true Diablo fans and shouldnt even be posting here... just sayin..
*Only* fun for *one year*? Only? What the hell?! A game that entertains me for an entire year has yet to be brought out! 365*5=2125 hours: Only WoW came close.



 

CBK

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Pay to play or free to fail?

Mcwhopper, I think you took that to literally. Think about the Diablo Series replayability and try again. =P
 

Sir Mister

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Pay to play or free to fail?

The essence of what I am going to say has been said, so excuse me for that, but I wanted to add weight to the points others have made previously.

I have a job. I work 50+ hours per week, every week. And that isn't that much. I'm also currently pursuing post-secondary education. I have a very active social life, as well. Money is not the issue (as others have said, it's slightly less money blown on a night of discretionary expenses). Time is. I have very little of it to spend towards any hobbies, and I have many more than just gaming (and especially, for that matter, video gaming) to spend it on. It is thus that my gaming is not measured by hours per day, or often even hours per week, but hours per month. I do not have TV in any form, because it isn't worth it- I would never spend enough time there to justify its presence. (Don't misinterpret- I have TVs, for movies, games, etc, just not cable, satellite, or even an antenna)

So, I am QUITE the casual gamer. Yet I deserve a quality gaming experience just as much as anyone else, and only play games that provide such an experience. Diablo 2 I have installed on my PC on at least 7 separate occasions. I'll install it, play it for a while, find it just as enjoyable as I remembered, get caught up in something else, realize I haven't played it for months and uninstall it, and then get a craving for one of the most thoroughly FUN games I've ever played, reinstall it, and the cycle continues.

If Diablo 2 had been p2p, I would have never bothered reinstalling it, and would likely by now not even remember it. For that matter, without remembering it, and leaving me only with rememberance of WoW, with which I grew inordinately sick of the grinding inherent in every aspect of the game, I would not even be following Blizzard as a company, and likely not even know Diablo 3 was in development at this point, nor care. I AM NOT ALONE. P2P increases current profits, but hurts long term profits.

For me $15, $5, heck $60/month, it wouldn't matter, I'd still try it (if only for a month). If anything, I might even be intrigued by the arrogance presented by a gaming company who thought their game was worth $60 per month. But as soon as something else came along to occupy my very limited time, you can bet your behind I'd be moving along (and something always comes along). And not looking back. Every decision people make (not just financially) is accompanied by the internal debate "is it worth it?" and a smart company makes sure that when that decision is made, it is made in a fashion favorable to their long term growth.

Gillette- when I turned 18 I recieved a happy birthday letter from them, along with a free razor. I can't calculate the thousands that decision has generated for them, as that $20 product made me favorably inclined towards them, and bought my loyalty, as no other company made the effort.

BFG- when comparing practically identical products, their offering of a lifetime warranty on their product means many people will go with them, even though the mean time between failure on the product is longer than the expected time between upgrades for their average consumer

Blizzard- they carry a AAA pedigree, and the inherent assumption on their consumers that any game of theirs is a "safe bet", as it is certain to be Game-Of-The-Year level quality. They cater to a huge audience, and carry a guarantee of near instant ROI, as long as their products maintain their standard. Alienating or even slightly diminishing their fanbase does not make sense as they are not a fly-by-night company, and intend to make money, not just today, but for years to come. They have yet to make a bad decision, or one which obviously negatively impacts their ability to generate profit long term, and scrap games which do not live up to their standard (SC: Ghost?) rather than even chance harming their giant fanbase or ridiculous reputation. Why would they start now? It is obvious from the poll above their fans are not overwhelmingly supportive of that move, to say the least. Therefore, I can say with great confidence, they will not make it.

(FWIW, too, I've bought I think 3 different full copies of Diablo II, as several moves and many years means when I again had that craving, I didn't always still have the game. So, even though they didn't get residual income from me through monthly fees, they generated way More income by making a game good enough for me to not seriously resent rebuying, as it was the game I most wanted to play at that time. Smart company.)

Again, sorry for the wall of text :embarassed:
 

Krugar

Banned
Re: Pay to play or free to fail?

Again, sorry for the wall of text :embarassed:
Not at all. I enjoyed reading it.

Also have 3 Diablo 2 + LOD keys myself, plus every single game (except WoW) since Lost Vikings. That's the type of commitment a company that behaves can expect of me. On the other hand, if they don't behave they get 0 licensed keys and bad publicity at every opportunity.


 

Astroquicky

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Pay to play or free to fail?

[...] It is thus that my gaming is not measured by hours per day, or often even hours per week, but hours per month. [...]

So, I am QUITE the casual gamer. Yet I deserve a quality gaming experience just as much as anyone else, and only play games that provide such an experience. Diablo 2 I have installed on my PC on at least 7 separate occasions. I'll install it, play it for a while, find it just as enjoyable as I remembered, get caught up in something else, realize I haven't played it for months and uninstall it, and then get a craving for one of the most thoroughly FUN games I've ever played, reinstall it, and the cycle continues.

If Diablo 2 had been p2p, I would have never bothered reinstalling it, and would likely by now not even remember it. [...] Every decision people make (not just financially) is accompanied by the internal debate "is it worth it?" and a smart company makes sure that when that decision is made, it is made in a fashion favorable to their long term growth.
So very true, so very true. Not all of us want to engage long-term in a time consuming multiplayer community. I've got my volleyball club for that ;).


 

Dahmer

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Pay to play or free to fail?

@Sir Mister :
Interesting read.
Your view on WoW also shows that the "QUITE the casual gamer" is completely true since I can never call anything in WoW a grind. Everything is "easy" to obtain and when comparing to all the other mmo's that I've played it's a breeze. That's exactly why I'm sure Blizzard knows what they're doing and because of that I think Diablo 3 will be free to play.

They had a large fanbase with Diablo 2 and I'm sure it's much larger now. Everyone I know that played Diablo 2 is either waiting like me or will at least try it and in addition to that several friends will try it because of what I told them about Diablo 2.
Free to play Diablo 3 will get a large amount of people to buy it, it keeps the road open to expansions and will more than likely push people into buying those too if/when they're out.

That's what I think about it anyway :)
 
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