Patriot Act- thank you for keeping me safe!!11

[Intolerance]

Patriot Act- thank you for keeping me safe!!11

but I could be safer- can't we make it... better?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/19/bush.patriot.act/index.html



On a semi-related sidenote, Craig Kilborn made a pretty funny joke several weeks ago around the time when John Ashcroft was hospitalized. Upon his release, Craigers joked to the effect of "On his way out of the hospital today, John Ashcroft visited the Bill of Rights, which is on life support."

 

[iq144]

"And then as a sign of goodwill to the american people he unplugged it."

 

[Anakha1]

I giggle maniacally every time I think about how that bill is called the "patriot" act.

Twirling, twirling, TWIRLING towards freedom!

 

[Hippie Holocost]

Ah the hypocrisy smells so lovely in the morning...


Do some research on what Clinton did to fight the drug wars and the Mafia...

Besides that:


"Does pledge of allegiance (wow i don't think i can spell that word" and walks out the room.

 

[jmervyn]

For those delusional forumites who consider me to the right of Adolph, this is exactly the sort of crap that horrifies me. The Patriot Act was a sloppy piece of legislation, pushed through in a knee-jerk reactionary mode. It kinda reminds me of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act.

The intent of these Acts are perfectly benign. They are supposed to stop nefarious activity and enable law enforcement types to do their jobs efficiently. But when Hillary can pull FBI files on political opponents, can't these right-wing nutjobs realize that without our due process protections, the process improvement of today becomes tomorrow's Orwellian nightmare? It hasn't been that long since the days of J.Edgar Hoover... (and don't forget, Big Brother was from the left of the political spectrum rather than the right, even though our current administration seems to want to emulate the concept).

If you all think I'm nuts or paranoid, check the following 3 pieces:
http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,63126,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_2
http://news.com.com/2100-1027_3-5194341.html?tag=nefd.lede
http://www.laweekly.com/ink/04/07/news-sullivan.php

And an image that I suspect is doctored...
http://www.muchosucko.com/img3522t.html

 

[gaoneng]

Add this to the list of paranoia sources.
http://news.com.com/2010-1028_3-5193750.html

 

[maccool]

Excellent points, jmerv. The problem with benign legislation is that it's enacted and enforced by malignant politicians. I think (and hope) most of the provisions of the Patriot Act are going to be allowed to expire. The political climate has changed a bit over the last 32 months.

Do some research on what Clinton did to fight the drug wars and the Mafia...

Yeah, that beefing up of the RICO Act really went after average, everyday citizens like you and me. Damn Clinton for trying to stop organized crime! Criminals have every right to make a buck in today's economy! As usual, I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about with regards to Clinton or the ramifications of the Patriot Act.

 

[Hippie Holocost]

Excellent points, jmerv. The problem with benign legislation is that it's enacted and enforced by malignant politicians. I think (and hope) most of the provisions of the Patriot Act are going to be allowed to expire. The political climate has changed a bit over the last 32 months.




Yeah, that beefing up of the RICO Act really went after average, everyday citizens like you and me. Damn Clinton for trying to stop organized crime! Criminals have every right to make a buck in today's economy! As usual, I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about with regards to Clinton or the ramifications of the Patriot Act.

Yup your right it was horrible, all the blood and mayhem. And now with the patriot act on top of that! I've been beaten down by the Gustapo 14 times, and my house is under constant watch, because I might be a terrorist threat. Zoinks!

 

[xXxDraGoNxXx1123]

1)"and allowing administrative subpoenas to be issued without a judge's or a grand jury's approval in cases "where speed is of the essence."

In other words "we can arrest anyone at anytime if we choose". As Bush repeatedly says himself, speed is always of the essence when dealing with terrorists.

2)"restricting bail for suspects facing terrorism charges"

In other words "We can then hold them without hoping of release". They say restrict, but it means you get NO bail.

Wow, now we just need a provision that will allow us to hold a "terrorist suspect" for years if we feel the need to. Oh wait... we already do that.

 

[jmervyn]

Yup your right it was horrible, all the blood and mayhem. And now with the patriot act on top of that! I've been beaten down by the Gustapo 14 times, and my house is under constant watch, because I might be a terrorist threat. Zoinks!

C'mon, Hippie, when the RIAA can field a paramilitary unit and raid someone's house on the grounds of suspicion, can't you admit that we've got some problems?

The issue isn't that law enforcement needs to have extraordinary powers, it's that they need separate oversight and restraint regarding the exercise of the powers. Or perhaps you'd like to have your car confiscated because some buddy had a bit of reefer with him when you get pulled over?

That's to say nothing of the whole Intellectual Property disaster - a nice site regarding that is http://www.chillingeffects.org

 

[Hippie Holocost]

C'mon, Hippie, when the RIAA can field a paramilitary unit and raid someone's house on the grounds of suspicion, can't you admit that we've got some problems?

The issue isn't that law enforcement needs to have extraordinary powers, it's that they need separate oversight and restraint regarding the exercise of the powers. Or perhaps you'd like to have your car confiscated because some buddy had a bit of reefer with him when you get pulled over?

That's to say nothing of the whole Intellectual Property disaster - a nice site regarding that is http://www.chillingeffects.org

If memory serves me correct a court just ruled that what the RIAA wasn't allowed. Meaning that our government had a wrinkle and then it got ironed out. The sky isn't falling yet jmervyn.

 

[advil]

I think (and hope) most of the provisions of the Patriot Act are going to be allowed to expire. The political climate has changed a bit over the last 32 months.

when you have people like james sensenbrenner and larry craig who're up in arms about it, it's got problems. craig introduced a bill last october (with a number of co-sponsors that include a certain John Kerry) to revise the patriot act, and sensenbrenner "vowed that extending the act before reviewing its results by 2005 would happen 'over my dead body.' "

both of these guys are pretty hardcore republicans...

 

[jmervyn]

If memory serves me correct a court just ruled that what the RIAA wasn't allowed. Meaning that our government had a wrinkle and then it got ironed out. The sky isn't falling yet jmervyn.

Doesn't mean it won't. The RIAA is nothing if not persistent, and similar unchecked legal abuses are happening with the MPAA and Micro$oft.

Check this - http://www.hypocrites.com/article4536.html . We need more folk like Bob Barr :scratch: (scares self).

 

[maccool]

Bob Barr? Jeebus, that cat freaks me out. I saw him speak at a Young Republican meeting about 3 years ago and he was off his nut. Even the die-hard conservatives were sitting there going, "Dude, you're a weirdo."

And this was a toned version of a speech he gave to a "States Rights Rememberance" group. Thanks for the nightmare, Jmerv :rant: Now I need a beer.

 

[Akira]

President Bush urged Congress on Monday to renew the anti-terrorist USA Patriot Act and strengthen it before the law expires next year, saying it gives investigators the tools to stop "terrorist monsters."

Goddamn terrorists, do you know how many pokéballs it takes to catch one? And they give next to no exp. :rant:

 

[Hippie Holocost]

Doesn't mean it won't. The RIAA is nothing if not persistent, and similar unchecked legal abuses are happening with the MPAA and Micro$oft.

Check this - http://www.hypocrites.com/article4536.html . We need more folk like Bob Barr :scratch: (scares self).

Still, with the RIAA halted there is no reason for me to lose sleep at night. Fact is that this is nothing to worry about if you don't break the law or give the US a reason to bust out the patriot act on you.

I'm still going to sleep with both eyes closed tonight fellas

 

[Plum]

Hippie, the idea that 'if you've done nothing wrong, you've nothing to fear' has been used for absurd excuses for pushing aside liberties many times before. A general threat, in this case that of the terrorists, has offered a number of administrations throughout history to vastly expand their control over judicial matters as well. Granted, I don't believe that the Bush Admnistration is headed the way of Adolf or Soviet Joe, but I'd still be less trusting of a government body that likes to mess with civil liberties.

 

[Hippie Holocost]

Hippie, the idea that 'if you've done nothing wrong, you've nothing to fear' has been used for absurd excuses for pushing aside liberties many times before. A general threat, in this case that of the terrorists, has offered a number of administrations throughout history to vastly expand their control over judicial matters as well. Granted, I don't believe that the Bush Admnistration is headed the way of Adolf or Soviet Joe, but I'd still be less trusting of a government body that likes to mess with civil liberties.

I agree. I'm not trying to say that they should take away my liberties and I won't care because I don't do anything wrong, I just know I have nothing to worry about. That was my point.

The thing that really bugs me is this idea that we are going to have Big Brother in the White House. America is too strong of a democracy for that to happen. Whats going on now is typical of a country at war. Lincoln declared marshall law and got rid of Habeus Corpus, but I can still speak against my government today. So ya your right, we need to keep our eye on the government, but I wouldn't break out the pitchforks and torches yet.

 

[jmervyn]

The thing that really bugs me is this idea that we are going to have Big Brother in the White House. America is too strong of a democracy for that to happen.

And I regard that as dangerous complacency - it is all in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure that J. Edgar Hoover's non-pinko victims weren't expecting to have their private lives used against them, just as the political opponents of Hillary weren't expecting their FBI records to be available to her. American democracy is only as strong as we want it to be.

And BTW, the RIAA is hardly stopped, just as Micro$oft is hardly stopped. Outrageous corporate behaviour is still commonplace, and the current administration is doing little or nothing to prevent it.

We don't need better information gathering capability; our services are already deluded with raw information. We don't need the Total Information Awareness program gathering scraps of data on individual citizens. Instead, we need some spring cleaning of bureaucracies and better information processing.

 

[jimmyboy]

I think too many Americans are caught up in the spirit of the Act rather than the substance. Yes it's designed to fight terrorism, but as you read it, you'd realize that it's a card blanche to shed the Bill of Rights. You won't be able to think up too may scenarios where the Act would fail to apply.

I can't think of another state or federal statute written so broadly. If it makes it to the Supreme Court, they'd probably axe it... else amend the Constitution.