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pallys more fragile than other classes?

Discussion in 'Paladin' started by Superhal, Jun 22, 2005.

  1. Superhal

    Superhal IncGamers Member

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    pallys more fragile than other classes?

    i played hell all yesterday, and my charger got 2hit killed...a lot. it seems that especially vs undead, he takes more damage than he is supposed to. for example, my standard eq setup gives @20-60 all res in hell after anya quests. i always use absorb. my sorc can take a full boss pack salvo from gloams with only tgods. pally on the other hand must have tgods + lightsaber.

    i've run this setup with many many MANY chars, so i know it should work.

    and then, when it didn't work, i started switching out and using equipment none of my other chars use. for example, kira's guardian. i used it for the 57 (i got a bad roll) resists. i also had to transfer over my prudence great hauberk (31 all res, 1500 def. another bad roll.) and then, i even had to get my spirit shield for holy shield prebuff.

    imho, the big problem, i think, is that pally's take increased damage vs undead, much the same way all clubs have the +50 to undead. the black spikey balls that the raveners shoot usually is nothing more than a slight nuisance to all my other chars. but, for a pally, 2-3 and he's dead.

    is this true?
     
  2. KillJoyBob

    KillJoyBob IncGamers Member

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    I mostly play Paladins. Since Paladins are unable to boost their HP like Druids and Barbs, or have a natural tank like Amazons and Assassins, they are a little more fragile as melee fighters. (Paladins have superior blocking and defense to partially compensate)

    In my experience max'ing resists in Hell, especially in Fire and lightning is a must. You can have absorb on top of that, but it still doesn't make you invincible.

    I've played other character classes and my experience has been different than yours. Unless I have near maxed resists and huge absorb (i.e. Lightsaber or Wisp Projector), I cannot stand up to a Gloam unique pack. You have to remember that all elemental attacks have a physical component in 1.10 so might-enchant, fanat-enchant, extra-strong, or cursed, will make the Gloams that much deadlier. As such, physical damage %reduction gear is also in order.

    Compared to other character classes, you have to exercise real dicipline in terms of scraping together every bit of HP possible (only close quarter damage Sorcs are worse off). Be it from charms, gear, or stat points. For PvM, I'd say 1,500 is comfortable mimimum in clvl 80's. In PvP, people go for a base of well above 2k. I've heard of plus 8K life after BO and Oak Sage for a PvP Paladin.

    As far as extra damage from undead goes, I think the people who "live" in the game files would've discovered that long ago.
     
  3. Phil

    Phil IncGamers Member

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    you also must remember that a charger uses normal attack from melee range instead of charge, and therefore attacks slower, does less damage, and leeches less because of it. If you are making a PvP charger, one point in zeal for lvling and quick leech is a huge help because of the limited capabilities of charge. With the huge defense from Holy Shield, and the ability to use auras to change most aspects of your character, I think that maybe you need to get used to hotkeying different auras for PvM more. Just an idea.


    goodluck
    phil
     
  4. Superhal

    Superhal IncGamers Member

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    nope, nothing spectacular eq-wise. i came up with this setup in the first ladder, when, towards the end when it started to get boring, i would make only base vit chars:

    shako
    smoke armor
    pdiamond stormshield
    ravenf
    dwarf star
    tgods
    (boots depends on the build, can't get much protection from them. silkweaves for casters, gore riders/war travs for melee/missile.)
    usually maras
    (gloves depends too, crafted ias gloves for melee/missile, frostburns/magefists for casters.)

    changes this ladder:
    replaced dwarf, smoke; didn't find maras yet.
    using rising sun, prudence.

    i've done this for base vit sorcs, zons, necros and barbs, and they've all done well.
     
  5. sorcyone

    sorcyone Banned

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    I hoped you maxed Holy shield. The defense it adds is mad. And you should use HoZ + hoto for HS prebuff which gives +7 if you aren't using a CTA.
    You resists should definitely all be maxed. Consider upped Guardian Angel Armour or upped Shaftstop+Ears for DR.
    Maybe not the best comparison, but my lev 89 Hammerdin has about 3400 life (about 2100 before BO). Resists are all at least 106% (max 75%) to mitigate Conviction. Defense about 12,000. With more strength you should be looking at at least 16,000 defense (Say 2,700 base times 6.05 for level 33 holy shield).

    If your mana drops to zero from something like mana burn, then does your charge switch to run + attack ? If so that could be the problem.

    Look on the positive side of Pallys. Minimal Dex is needed for max block. They get very fast block and very fast hit recovery. They can get massive defense with way fewer skill points than a barb (15% per point vs 10%).
     
  6. KillJoyBob

    KillJoyBob IncGamers Member

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    Barbs get more life per level than any other character. They also have BO. They can get out of any hole using Leap Attack or WW.

    Necros, don't have to be anywhere near the action with Golems, skellys, and revives. People have made naked Necro Guardians.

    Bowazon's & Javazons, have Valk and Decoy going for them, and can stay safely out of the fray. They have Dodge/Avoid/Evade for dealing with ranged attackers to boot.

    95% of Sorc builds are not melee. Sorcs have teleport built-in makes them very hard to catch and hit. They also have energy shield (although it is bugged, I know).

    A Paladin has to be in the middle of things (even a Hammerdin), without a built-in meat shield, without much manuverability, and without a huge HP boost.
     
  7. foh pally

    foh pally IncGamers Member

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    Ok i always thought getting resists maxed easily was one of the paladins positives too, is this just me. Yeah you should really use a hoz with a perfect diamond or um rune in it instead of stormshield. As a matter of fact a paladin seems to be the only char i can make that has decent resists or maxed resists in hell. As long as you can get your resists to atleast fifty you should be fine doing pvm against elementals with a tgods, dwarf, and raven.
     
  8. MoonUnit

    MoonUnit IncGamers Member

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    My pvp/pvm smiter uses coh and an um'd zak for baal runs; gives him around 65 all w/ my anni; 85 in lite becuz of highlords. With tgods, he can not really tank persay but he can take hits from boss glooms. Maybe I built him differently but my ladder zealot w/ 95 all res + tgods is healed by hell glooms :cool: The only char that actually has problems is my titan ik sorc. Just my $0.02.
     
  9. Wurmer

    Wurmer IncGamers Member

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    IF you have resistances problem, getting a sanctuary shield is good idea as well and it's not that expensive. KoKoMal remains attainable in decent limits. It's not as good as an HoZ but provide nevertheless good mods and if you make it in a good shield with high inherent resistances you may end up with a shield with over 100 % resistances all.
     
  10. dyre

    dyre IncGamers Member

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    Magic Damage Reduction

    I play primarily a zealot and find that equipment with good magic damage reduction helps a great deal vs gloams and similar monsters. Gladiator Bane is a very good armor for this and that mod can spawn on amulets as well. Hwanin's grand crown also has good magic damage reduction. I find that to be of great value in the dungeons of act v. Using a Famine runeword in a war spike will give you 4 fps if you are using fanaticism as your main attack and delivers a lot of elemental damage. String of Ears will add enough life leech to keep you alive. You should also have some faster recovery equipment for when you get mobbed. Charms work well if you dont have any other place to get it.

    This type of set up allows me to tank solo, my merc was raised from act one normal (took forever) and deals with the occasional oblivion knights.

    See if this helps your survivability.
     
  11. Superhal

    Superhal IncGamers Member

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    it's very easy to make a str lvl 32 req 4 pdiamond shield for resists for pally's. but what i'm saying is that the setup i use works for every char except pallys, and when i use better eq, they still need more. i swear it's something to do with undead vs pallys.

    also, i'm currently running a base vit sorc through a2 normal. no problems whatsoever with raveners using 3 item angel's set.
     
  12. St_Vitruvius

    St_Vitruvius IncGamers Member

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    I think you somewhere missed something... My pala does fine and is MUCH thougher than my friends Shapeshifter-druid or his sorc.. When his chars have problems, I step in to help him out..


    \St_Vitruvius
     
  13. sorcyone

    sorcyone Banned

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    Sorcs are ranged. Pallys are melee. You really need a lot of life and defense on your Pally. I expect this must be much harder on a non-caster Pally.
    I just checked my resists and I have 137/140/142/130 FCLP (max 75) on my hammerdin. Extra poison resist is a waste but the other 3 are useful against cold mastery and conviction. Conviction + Gloams are the major danger for my Pally.

    You really should use HoZ (Ummed). IMHO there is nothing better. The blocking is so huge I can almost use base dex and still get max block lol. A Guardian Angel is sweet too upped or non upped.
    Pallys, like barbs, are more equipment dependent. And 3 item Angel is not a good comparison (assuming 1 ring amulet armour) since it is so powerful. I often use it right up to Hell, my first barb used it all the way through Hell, and often with 2 rings for the extra MF and AR.

    Again it looks like your defense is not high enough. In 1.10 defense is extremely important, along with getting all resists to 75%.
    I even use a defense charm (GC 96 def 39 life).
     
  14. Bigrob

    Bigrob Banned

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    the most verstaile class is never fragile against other classes.
     
  15. Davie.

    Davie. IncGamers Member

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    You are definetly wrong about pallies vs the undead. What you need to do is focus on your resists which shouldnt be hard for a Paladin, Dr is overrated pvm..defense and health pots should do you in good stead.
     
  16. xpumafangx

    xpumafangx IncGamers Member

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    When I do p v m as a zealot. I use max resist all in hell, A good weapon, and duel leech. I also use 48%-120% fhr. I keep a bow or jav on switch at all times, for iron maiden. Then when I get mobbed. I charge away and look for a tight area to fight in. Which keeps me from being attacked on all sides.
     
  17. Superhal

    Superhal IncGamers Member

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    try this: in the a2 tombs, take a few of the black spikey balls from the raveners, feel free to kill all the skellies with nature's peace or something.

    i just ran through a base vit sorc with 440 hps, and these balls only took like 1/5 life. with a pally however, 1 will take half or more, and he had like 800 life. i tried it twice, once with @40 all res, once with negative res, and the results were the same. vs a multishot boss, i couldn't even run.
     
  18. KillJoyBob

    KillJoyBob IncGamers Member

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    I'm willing to give it a try tonight. Although I have one question, what's a "ravener"? Are you talking about a Greater Mummy?
     
  19. Superhal

    Superhal IncGamers Member

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    yep. asdfsfsdd
     
  20. Cheetor

    Cheetor IncGamers Member

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    Superhal might be right, I play a fanatic zealot and I also belive that undead have a higher damage than other monsters, but i don't know if only against the paly.

    The undead is genarly stonger than the other clases, but they are more vulnerable to maces and are alot slower. I wouldn't want to get into mele against a bunch of unique undead, but theen again i did it many times.
    I only fear monsters that can kill me in one hit (hell Hephasto), and teleporters that replenishes life very quikly ( I simply cannot kill those guys ), in rest it's jut zealing away.

    As for fragilty the paly has plenty o'things to make up for it, he is the only caracter I know that can easily get max resisits in hell, he can easily atain max block, and you can get the highest defence rating using the Paladin. Shure he has low HP( mine has 960 ) but with good gear, I wish good luck to any monster that tryes to :hit him, burn him, shock him etc...
     

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