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Paladin and Angelic class

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Vaughann722, Sep 3, 2008.

  1. Vaughann722

    Vaughann722 Diabloii.Net Member

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    Paladin and Angelic class

    Firstly I'm writing this in response to a thread I saw on another forum... There were several threads at 'Diablo Fans' reporting that the Paladin charachter would not be included in DIII.

    Firstly - it's hard to understand this - if it is true... The Paladin character was amongst the most popular characters in DII - and so far as the broader fantasy genre is concerned - is 'standard fare'.. While many people prefer a 'darker' kind of character mould, I think many more prefer to take what one might refer to as 'serving the light', 'epitomising the light' etc...

    Then there is another option - to have some kind of 'Angelic' class... Out of five classes - to have two of these unambiguously on the side of 'light' - ought not be too much to ask - given that such as the preferred role of most players...

    The question would be: what differences would there be to make each character choice distinctive in its own right? I'd like to hear other peoples' opinion on this... Perhaps both could have a mix of support/combat/holy magic?

    Also - if a Paladin/Angelic class has support powers - they also need to be able to manage on solo too...

    Importantly - I think fans should be organising through all the Diablo III forums - to make it clear what we want from Blizzard... It's still a long time until release - and certainly I think Blizzard has time to 'change its mind'.

    That being the case, I think that those of us who would like to see an Paladin charcter - or an 'Angelic' character - (or both) - should make our voices heard...

    Hoping to hear more about this in the forums...

    sincerely,

    Vaugahnn722
     
  2. pantherus

    pantherus Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Paladin and Angelic class

    I've floated the idea already of a "holy" character filling the "mage" niche - like a priest or a monk.

    The problem with the Paladin - and why there is such a loud voice against it being included in D3 - is because the class was effectively ruined by a single skill; and we all know what skill that it.

    From a personal perspective, I couldn't care less if the Paladin is included in D3 - I never played the class in D2 cause he looks far too bland for my gaming tastes - but each to their own I guess.

    There will certainly be another melee class to a certain extent, whether the Paladin fills that area is yet to be determined.
     
  3. Norrit

    Norrit Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Paladin and Angelic class

    I hope you're not talking about blessed hammer, because that skill is fair on its own, what really gets it over the edge is the concentration aura applying itself to the hammer damage (if you don't believe me, make a full fledged hammerdin and don't use concentration aura while trying to play. It's still pretty damn effective, but not downright ridiculous)

    Other than that, to get back on topic, I believe that paladins should be more of a support class than the almighty gods that take on everything with a non-resistable skill.


     
  4. Vaughann722

    Vaughann722 Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Paladin and Angelic class

    Norrit: The idea of support classes - with healing and buffs - is fine - but I think it's reasonable to suppose that every class be able to complete the game 'solo'...

    Given this - any 'Paladin' or 'Angelic' class should be capable of BOTH support and solo... The emphasis, here, ought be a matter of individual choice...

    Perhaps - also - any number of DIII characters ought be capable of providing support and 'buffs'? Healing; defence and attack bonuses, poison immunity etc...

    On the issue of such classes - assuming there ought be at least a couple of class choices unambiguously on the side of 'light' - so to speak: if not Paladin and Angel - then what? ...Some kind of 'mage of the light'?: or is it best to be ambiguous and allow players to make their own choice?

    And what sort of skills would be reasonable to provide in a skill-tree for such characters?

    Maybe there should be skills that are only 'unlocked' in Multiplayer mode - providing support and buffs where they're required - and not hampering the players ability to complete the game on solo? - That's an idea I'm serious about - hoping someone is reading this who might take note. :)

    I'd really like for Blizzard to 'open things up' for the fans - and I hope it's not too late for us to have an input.
     
  5. Arbedark

    Arbedark Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Paladin and Angelic class

    Couple of points.

    1. Paladins are only so popular because they are so overpowered. Before 1.10 they were about as popular as Assassins and Druids (i.e not very...)

    2. No "Angelic" character. Both Angels and Demons want to use humanity, and the only thing keeping them from doing this was the worldstone, which shrouded Sanctuary from being detected by Angels and Demons. Also on this point, Diablo is about humans trying to save humanity, no Angels, Demons turned good, Super Saiyans, pure Nephalems or whatever.

    3. Religious character, yes, "Good" character, no. Religion is very rarely "good" when it is fighting for what it believes is right. Diablo also isn't a game about good vs evil, it's about Heaven vs Hell with the humans stuck in between and the only reason the heroes killed Diablo was to save humanity, not because he's inherently evil (other than the Necro who killed Diablo to keep balance).

    To sum it up, a crazy religious guy who is fighting for his religion, but isn't necessarily good? Sounds fun.

    Paladin? No.
     
  6. Vaughann722

    Vaughann722 Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Paladin and Angelic class

    Arbedark - your ideas are an interesting basis for a fantasy storyline... And indeed I confess I have not read any Diablo fiction. I have only played the games... But regardless, I think that most fantasy RPG gamers identify with 'right', 'justice', 'light'...

    Now - perhaps you think such 'constructs' are part of the problem... But Humanism also can be - in fact must be - grounded in ideas of right and wrong... And also - in the real world - there are things that Humanistic science cannot comprehend...

    That said, ideas of Heaven and Hell in the Diablo universe - in the broadest sense - derive from Christian and Judaic narratives... And it is this which makes the Diablo narrative familiar... And in some ways this familiarity is a strength...

    Regardless of the complexities of the Diablo universe in literature - thus - I think the underlying narrative ought be one of 'light' against 'darkness': justice and love and hatred, injustice, darkness...

    That said - there are some who prefer to play a character of more ambiguous morality - say, Assassins or Witchdoctors... But do not let this bet at the expense of those who prefer and underlying narrative of 'light' against 'darkness'... And if there are to be difficult moral dimensions and 'shades of grey' in the story - then draw these out in the game narrative - broaden the game with a simple roleplaying aspect - simple, but involved enough to let every player 'choose their path'...

    Hope to hear more about this... most sincerely,

    Vaughann
     
  7. Arbedark

    Arbedark Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Paladin and Angelic class

    Thanks :wink:

    Well I do understand that without having much knowledge about the books the games don't REALLY give you too much insight into the whole good vs evil do-da while humanities stuck in the middle.
    That said, I do think that just from playing the games its fairly obvious that the characters, while good, aren't inherently "angelic".

    I think its safe to put the D1 characters aside for a while when looking at this view since they were all corrupted. So lets look at the D2 characters:

    Necro; only cares about balance, would support the demons if heaven was winning the fight. Moral ambiguity, cares about a balance between good and evil.

    Paladin; As can be seen here, the entire Paladin order was founded to convert peoples to the Zakarumite religion. In the third paragraph it is stated that those who didn't convert were deemed evil. Yes, the Paladin in D2 rebelled to fight the Prime Evils, yet he is still a religious zealot who no doubt punished the "evil" civilians who didn't convert. Once again, a character who is very ambiguous.

    Assassin; An order devoted to killing out of control Mages. Natalya in Act 3 is keeping an eye on Ormus to make sure that he isn't corrupted. Now, while this may easily be seen as a "good" objective, both the name and the actual act have morally ambiguous tones.

    You can see where I'm going with this. Yes, the goal of ridding the world of the Three Prime Evils may be a good one in itself, but since all the characters are Human there is always ambiguity in their character, and none can really be deemed to be entirely "good", or "angelic"

    Ah but right and wrong are entirely subjective, Humanism is grounded in morality, which while much less so, is still subjective.

    Yes, the religious concepts are derived from our own world. This just helps emphasize that while the concepts of good and evil are easily defined within the game realm as being those of Heaven and Hell respectively, and that the humans within Sanctuary may deem themselves to be "good", there is still large ambiguity (wow, I REALLY have to stop using that word). I mean I'm sure the Christians during the Crusades believed what they were doing was "good", Nazis and their persecution of Jews, Muslim extremists and 9/11 etc...

    Ah, but it is, it's just that humanity is stuck in the middle of the fight. The characters are fighting to save the world, which yes, can be deemed to be a good action, even though there is the selfishness of self preservation and preservation for that which you love, within the action of trying to save the world.

    Hope this doesn't seem like to much crazed rambling btw.



     
  8. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Paladin and Angelic class

    I think that the game is going to revolve around "the time of humanity". It was hinted in D2 that humanity had to fight its own battle. I think there will be avoidance from siding with the light or hell. I think that there will be a stage where you fight heaven's forces as well...
     
  9. pantherus

    pantherus Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Paladin and Angelic class

    Yes I was referring to Blessed Hammer - or perhaps I should rephrase it be "Blessed Hammer with Concentration active and synergy points in Vigor"

    As for your suggestion of there being a "support class" - I will add my voice to those giving that a resounding NO!!!

    There is no place for a "support" class in Diablo - even the D2 Paladin used his auras to aid himself and his merc first; with the added benefit of helping out party members second. Just like the Barb shouts and Druid spirits.


     
  10. Vaughann722

    Vaughann722 Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Paladin and Angelic class


    Don't you think though that this will clash with peoples' assumptions, and may actually reduce the appeal of the game for many people? I admit again that I'm not familiar with 'Diablo literature' - but I dare say most RPG gamers are in the same position...

    And yes - there are some areas which are characterised by moral 'shades of grey'... But surely murder is murder, sentient life is invaluable, love and patience are greater than hate?... (I could go on)

    So you see - I'm not sure about this idea of 'fighting Heaven's minions'... Although even in Judaeo-Christian lore there were a number of instances of angels rebelling and being 'cast down'... (eg: Lucifer, the Nephilim etc)

    So maybe there could be something of this sort in the game?

    And even if there is a class whose value system envisages humanity "standing on its own two feet" - then regardless there will be need for moral judgment... And some moral judgments are clearer than others...

    That's all for now...

    Vaughann


     
  11. Vaughann722

    Vaughann722 Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Paladin and Angelic class

    Hey - another issue for ppl reading this thread: Any ideas on an "Angelic" class??? Sacred II has a 'Seraphim' class... What about something of the same mould for D III? (or some kind of variation on that theme)

    And if so - what elements would such a class be compromised of?
     
  12. ogogo on ice

    ogogo on ice Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Paladin and Angelic class

    I'm not sure thats completely true, one of my favorite classes to play in D2 was a cleric. Solo the only places I could kill were parts of act 2, but playing through the game with 2 friends it was a blast.



     
  13. pantherus

    pantherus Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Paladin and Angelic class

    That's different - probably a more accurate term for that would be "variant" rather than class - what we're saying is that a class designed wholly around the idea of "support" has no place here - rather than having support syles available.


     

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