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OT: The Great “Is 1.10 Too Hard†Debate

Discussion in 'Druid' started by Garbad_the_Weak, Mar 22, 2004.

  1. Garbad_the_Weak

    Garbad_the_Weak IncGamers Member

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    OT: The Great “Is 1.10 Too Hard†Debate

    Hey Furballs,

    I plan on submitting this was a guest article. Help me proof it.

    Garbad

    -------------------

    The Great “Is 1.10 Too Hard†Debate

    Over the past few months, I have read approximately 500 million articles and threads discussing the difficulty of 1.10. Some claim 1.10 is too hard, whining about regen, excessive damage, and so forth. Others smugly point out how “smart†players can easily win by using “strategy.â€

    The reality is both sides miss the point completely. Allow me to explain.

    Monsters in 1.09 fell into two categories—tedious and annoying. Either you mindlessly herded and slaughtered them or they annoyed you into retreating and killing them one by one (or you simply teleported past).

    The vast majority of players used overpowered dupes and hacks on their favorite overpowered cookie cutters. Spambots and ebayers ran unchecked. PvM was tedious and unchallenging unless you deliberately played to make it a challenge (untwinked, unleeched, and noncookie). Roughly 95% of all games fell into one of these categories:

    · Cows
    · Sewers/arcane runs (hc normal only)
    · Blood runs
    · meph runs
    · pindle runs
    · shopbot runs
    · “Rush me plz†games

    Blizzard sought to counter this by adding resistances, speed, hit points, and replenish to the monsters. Blizz added Rust Storm, synergies, new items, a host of balance changes, and the ladder. 1.10 has more changes than any patch before.

    Yet for all those superficial changes, do you notice nothing fundamental changed?

    Monsters in 1.10 STILL fall into only two categories—tedious and annoying (IE, enslaved or gloams). PvM is STILL tedious and unchallenging unless you deliberately played to make it a challenge (untwinked, unleeched, and noncookie).

    The vast majority of players STILL used overpowered dupes or runewords (ladder or not) on their favorite overpowered cookie cutters (and there are about the same number of viable builds in 1.10 as 1.09—look back at the guides if you have a short memory). Spambots and ebayers are STILL unchecked. Roughly 95% of all games fall into one of these categories:

    · Baals
    · sewers/arcane/travincial (normal only)
    · cows
    · Pit runs
    · Meph runs
    · “Help me beat X restraining quest†games

    See the similarities? That’s right, 1.09 = 1.10.

    So is PvM a challenge? No, it never has been and never will be. 1.10 didn’t change anything fundamental about PvM. The biggest challenge of PvM is not falling asleep as you mindlessly hold down right click. PvM strategy consists entirely of knowing how to max synergies, using godly uniques/runewords and then knowing when to pot, when to run, and when to wear down the mindless meat.

    The fact is, PvM has always been tedious and easy. Virtually everyone on Cattle.net finds the most overpowered build using the items they have at their disposal. They then proceed to run whatever area they think will give them the best rewards (be it runes, experience, or items).

    Blizzard thought increasing meat and resistances would increase the challenge, but they were wrong. The problem with Diablo II PvM is NOT certain builds, items, or synergies. It has nothing to do with resistances, cows, or rushing.

    PvM is boring and easy because the monsters cannot change tactics, adjust, or react in any way. Their damage, speed, and reaction time is inferior to yours. They simply charge and hope their meat wears you down. The Diablo II AI, like any AI, simply cannot challenge an intelligent opponent for long.

    I prefer to fight something that can fight back, thank you. I prefer to fight those who can meet me as an equal. I want to fight someone who wants to win as badly as I do and will think and adjust to do so.

    There is only one way in Diablo II to fight an intelligent, reactive opponent and that is by clicking the hostile button. PvP is the ONLY lasting and real challenge in Diablo II. The good news is PvP changes every day, every month as people get better and better. PvP will never grow stale as long as you are willing to fight.

    If you think Diablo II is too easy, you are right. If you are tired of not dying enough, simply don’t leave the game next time someone hostiles you and find out just how good you really are. In time, you will find the challenge and fun of a good duel to be far superior to anything PvM has to offer.

    If you want to find the challenge in Diablo II, come join us in Clan-Honor for some 4v4s. We duel with manners and respect for our opponents. We have rules to balance out the worst of blizzard’s mistakes. And I can promise you we will give you more of a challenge than those quill rats ever will.

    Long Live Legit PvP!

    Garbad_the_Weak
    Dueling Legit since 1995
     
  2. Keaka26

    Keaka26 IncGamers Member

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    So that was basically a Clan Honor recuitment/advertisement post, under the guise of an informative post about how lame PvM is... :lol:

    I'm interested in CO. Whats required to join? How? How are games run? Is there a game or 2 always with people in it or a channel or are the games scheduled beforehand?

    Ladder? Non? East? West?

    I believe I heard non-ladder, so Id basically count myself out if that was the case, as Im ladder.
     
  3. Koggit

    Koggit IncGamers Member

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    So, 1.10 isn't too hard... if you have godly items. That's what you're saying? It's nearly impossible to get good items without having good items, and without good items you can't take on 1.10's Hell. The synergies helped a lot in the right direction, but not enough. There should have been more synergies and synergies for every skill, or make drops better.


    It's not a good article, in my opinion. Everything stated is pure opinion, your bias against PvM obviously got in the way, and it sounds much more like a post in a forum than an editorial. It lacks sharp wit or any real message other than you prefer PvP and want to plug your clan.
     
  4. VictusMetuo

    VictusMetuo IncGamers Member

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    Yes this is basically PvM sucks because I have great items because I PvP but PvP is imbalanced so join CH because it balances things.

    Keaka there is a CH Forum under the PvP Forum. It's East/West Non-Ladder mainly.

    You forgot to mention in your article that even for PvM or PvP 95% of Cattle.net is not actually "intelligent" anyway.
     
  5. steve2677

    steve2677 IncGamers Member

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    Hmmm....WOW i was kinda with you garbad till you started in on hackers, items and rushers. Now as 1.10 came out some of us said boohoo i cant beat hell but that didnt stop the players of the game and not the rushees to try and conquer hell. The problem was we had ample time to playtest this new patch before the *patch* was released thus teaching alot of us who played it how to get those godly items,or which builds were going to let us get our first char in hell to mf with.

    I as a sole pvm player whether you think me silly or not may as a player not find hell AS difficult as when the patch was first released, do not think that the enemies have gotten that bad as you say. I have taken a total of 12 chars fully through hell without rushing. It sometimes is tedious to killl the warped ones again and again etc. but find me a game with replayability that doesnt at some point bore you to death when you get to a certain area. I still find a huge challenge in hell ancients along with most of act 5, some of act 4 and act 2. I like playing pvm and youre article totally ***** on my parade.

    P.S. And if i say get my first char through hell and then get so called godly items (btw i do not have a runeword better then stone) because i mf does that automatically put me in the 95% of cattle.net that likes to equip my other chars with items i have found and i know i could find the game easier with if i did xfer them then use them?I think this game is how you see it, i like pvm and lately i have gotten a little into pvp but when someone basically says pvm sucks let me write an article about it it kinda pisses me off. I thought as a mod you could promote the game in all its aspects even though you may not like pvm at all.
     
  6. proudfoot

    proudfoot IncGamers Member

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    Yeah, Single Player is a slightly different story...
     
  7. Garbad_the_Weak

    Garbad_the_Weak IncGamers Member

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    You missed the point. The point of the article is the difficulty of diablo 2 has nothing to do with builds or items of any kind. Diablo 2 is easy because the AI is poor and connot react.

    Randomly generated monsters was a start, but not enough.

    Any PvM challenge can be overcome by simply not letting yourself get swarmed and avoiding the one hit kills (and I was 72nd or so on the ladder till I got to about lvl 77 and got bored. I play hc btw also and have never died non-pvp over lvl 60). If the game gets hard, you just run in another area. Not very hard to do at all, and therefore PvM becomes simply an exercise in endurance.

    PvP, on the other hand, has your opponents adjust to you and there is no backing down. You react and win by skill or you lose.

    Garbad

    P.S. And vic, intelligent was used in a very liberal sense :)
     
  8. memememe173

    memememe173 IncGamers Member

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    I agree in some ways and not in others...

    First, even with the fact that cookie cutters remain, the synergys and skill tweaking made many builds more viable... [Fire] Elemental Druids, Concentrate Barbarians, Chain Lightning Sorceresses. When you take 7 characters and 30 skills a piece, it is near impossible to make each skill balance perfectly. I get my characters rushed, and I tweak them. That being said, I've died more times then I can count. And not just trying to tank Lister with a sorc or going afk in the Chaos Sanctuary, but just cases where I could not compete with the monsters.

    There will always be people who want to play the cookie cutter and get a "free" ride, just like kids will, at one point or another lie about doing there homework to the parents, if they know it won't be checked...One of the great things about Diablo for me is, I can take my Geddon druid, and have trouble with many parts of the game, and need to party, and then right after that take my Hammerdin and do a Diablo run and not go under 50% health.

    It's all up to the play style. I try to do every quest with each character (though not always at the lower level, as I said I do get rushed) and I will run into monsters I hardly ever see and have some challenge's only they can provide. For example the Flayer's in act 3. My level ** orb sorc has all but one wp, the Flayer Jungle. I've tried three times to get it myself, and all three times I've failed.

    So you can make the game as easy or hard as you like. Monsters are only tedious if you only fight a few select ones. And the game is only easy if you never play through, or play a variant build.
     
  9. psuedoenviro

    psuedoenviro IncGamers Member

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    I liked your article and thought it was well written. You make a great point that monster AI will not surpass the intelligence of most people (not all people though). You should submit your article. It even made want to join Clan Honor and do more than the occationally pubby, but I am at heart a PvM person.

    The key to PvM is doing all those things you said that still make it an interesting game. Don't Twink. Don't run Baal 20 times before you enter nm or hell. Entering hell at lvl 70-75 like most people is just boring.That's an average of 15-20 skill points which makes a huge difference. See what's the lowest lvl you can complete Hell untwinked. Even cookie-cutters can have a difficult time.

    Don't be like 95% of bnet. Make a game called act 1 normal with a lvl 1 char and limit it to chars within 5 your own lvl and limit the max number of players that you play with to 2 and make sure you doing at least of 1/3 of the killing and not just leeching. (You can have 8 players in one game to make it more difficult, but an group of 8 in one area is just too easy.) Now play the game through not going back to any area twice. Only use what you pick up. No rushing. I still enjoy PvM even after over 3yrs of on an off D2 play.

    An alternative way to play this would be to allow one twink item for nm and hell and only rush Act 3.
     
  10. Garbad_the_Weak

    Garbad_the_Weak IncGamers Member

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    Btw, I didn't intend this as a CH sales pitch. I just wanted to "educate" people into realizing all PvP isn't suddenly attacking an unprepared lower level char (ala HC pking) or morons nking each other (public duels).

    I really wanted to promote mannered, honorable dueling, not necessarily CH dueling.

    Garbad
     
  11. ~Kazama Fury~

    ~Kazama Fury~ IncGamers Member

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    you forgot to add:

    PvM is for people who cant hit moving targets. o_O
     
  12. memememe173

    memememe173 IncGamers Member

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    Garbad, you were asking the difference between PvM and PvP in a thread a month or two ago, and now you're writing on why PvM isn't that good?:scratch:

    *Disclaimer* I'm not trying to offend or be fecicous, I'm just wondering

    And PvP can be just as gear demanding and cookie cuttered as PvM, but, IMHO, is harder to "dumb down." PvM is by not twinking or using wierd builds.

    But I find that those sort of builds often get eaten in PvP

    IMO both aspects of Diablo can be as easy or as hard as you want. And we should stop blaming Blizzard, who has to cater to millions(?) of people and we only have to cater to oursleves or a small group
     
  13. prion

    prion IncGamers Member

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    You can't expect monsters to be as smart as the gamer. If they were, they would save and exit as they were about to die, and there would be no game.
     
  14. Æ’enris

    Æ’enris Banned

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    ROFL save and exit ns!

    Garbad make it longer you nub. :lol:
    How is a post about 1.10 off topic btw?
     
  15. ~Kazama Fury~

    ~Kazama Fury~ IncGamers Member

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    omg that would definately be my sig if i had a pal account ><
    or if i was mod... cough cough
     
  16. Æ’enris

    Æ’enris Banned

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    You could pull a mep.
    Æ’enris, the round and round of all that is-
    You can't expect monsters to be as smart as the gamer. If they were, they would save and exit as they were about to die, and there would be no game.

    ^_^ Nice!
     
  17. DeamonMonkey

    DeamonMonkey IncGamers Member

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    Take out the plug for Clan Honor, as much as I'd like it to be successful it ruins the article. By plugging CH you ruin your valid points, by looking like a...well, a clan leader plugging his clan.

    So, I'd take out everything on Clan Honor, and add something like:


    So, go find some Legit PvP, and experience a challenge in The Moor that Quill rats will never give.

    Long Live Legit PvP!

    Garbad_the_Weak
    Dueling Legit since 1995

    (and then maybe a PS: Plugging CH)
     
  18. Jackson

    Jackson IncGamers Member

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    Very true, because stupid monsters are so dumb they ignore you and go for your Valkyrie or Decoys. I was able to solo Hell Baal naked with my 10 Skeletons and AMP curse. The monsters ignore my completely and the skeletons make short work of them.


    I'll check out Clan Honor sometime :)
     
  19. xpumafangx

    xpumafangx IncGamers Member

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    Hi I know I hardly ever post. I once posted a guide in 1.09 on the pally forum some people read it. But I did not get the effect I wanted. I did plugg my clan in it thinking hey why not. After words I felt that by doing so was my Achilles' Heel. Even thought I was sly about it.
     
  20. Hamsterman

    Hamsterman IncGamers Member

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    if you're gonna play pvp, then woo twink your char to high heaven.

    but, to me, if you're gonna play pvm, then twinking is against the rules, use only what you find and don't do mf runs to find the godly gear you can't win without. it isn't that I feel I need to dumb myself down to win, just if I wanna play pvm I won't ever twink.

    if you do it that way, then gl taking out most hell areas, namely ancients, baal, and diablo.
     

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