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OT: Remember

Discussion in 'Hardcore' started by Spero, Mar 25, 2004.

  1. Spero

    Spero IncGamers Member

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  2. Stimm

    Stimm IncGamers Member

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    one word


    wow
     
  3. Stimm

    Stimm IncGamers Member

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    I have the broadcast from right after the first plane hit till about 9 hours later when my tape ran out. So one day i can show my kids how our world was changed for ever. Growing up my biggest concern was weather i got to go out on a friday night. Now my kids live in a world where they have bomb threats , dirty bomb drills , terroist levels and CNN opens up with " 2 more soldiers have been killed" . The on thing i am thankful for is that in my 30 years there has been 3 major terrorist actions in the United States ; however in countries like Isreal and Lebanon it is an every day occurance, i guess i could have it worse.................
     
  4. MiTEG

    MiTEG IncGamers Member

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    Hrm... those quotes seem a bit strange.

    September 11th and the Revolutionary War didn't exactly occur under similar circumstances.

    shown right after people jumping to their deaths from the towers-
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of tyrants."

    Huh?

    The music was pretty though.
     
  5. Spero

    Spero IncGamers Member

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    Yes you're right, the Revolutionary War and Sept 11th are very different. However, the Revolution was about freedom and so have been the actions taken since September 11.

    I believe that people like Osama and Sadam can fairly be termed tyrants, and they jeopardize the freedom of the civilized world.

    What is freedom? Is it being able to travel safely? To live life your own way? Being able to worship as you choose without people shooting/bombing you? I won't even go into what these people do to the women in their own families. I questioned a quote or two in there, but that one I thought appropriate.

    I thought a while before I posted it, because I know some people think we should have just let it go and tried to negotiate with these people. It's very hard for me to understand that point of view, and I frankly don't care if some think I'm wrong to want to stop these people.

    There was a quote in Tears of the Sun (Bruce Willis). It went something like, "for evil to triumph all that is required is for good men to do nothing"

    To each his own, I guess. I didn't notice the music.
     
  6. Kitriara

    Kitriara IncGamers Member

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    Correction, I think

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of tyrants."
    I believe that this quote is supposed to read:

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots."
    Meaning those who give their lives to defend the American way of life and our freedom. I'm pretty sure that thats the correct quote of I remember, and it kinda makes more sense.

    Just thought I'd mention it.
     
  7. Kelicc

    Kelicc IncGamers Member

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    Ok, here it is

    I just did an internet search and it seems that the correct quote is:

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants".

    This was a nice tribute. The quote will be appropriate when the "tree" actually is refreshed with the blood of tyrants. Osama bin Laden still is free and Saddam Hussein, although having been captured, has not had a trial as of yet.
     
  8. slick4hire

    slick4hire IncGamers Member

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    I still have chills on my arms... The music was a nice addition.

    There are little victories happening everyday in the war on terrorism. I have friends in harms way daily making sure there is no repeat of 9-11-01. There are too many who have forgotten that there are still threats out there. We must take the fight to the enemy, or they will again bring the fight to us, on our soil. And if they do, it will not be soldiers who are the casualties. It will once again be people just trying to get to work, see their families, civilians, people who are not trained to put themselves into harms way.

    For those who think the war on terrorism is political, or agenda driven for someones personal gain, consider this: For good to prevail, evil must be defeated. People who kill innocent civilians are nothing but evil, regardless of what they use to justify their actions. They cannot be negotiated with, nor appeased unless our way of life is gone. That is their ultimate goal. To them, it is non-negotiable.

    Staff Sergeant Brent Phillips
    United States Army

    "If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading this in English, thank a soldier."
     
  9. det

    det IncGamers Member

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    Lets keep this thread as what it was..a tribute to the people who died on 911. Lets not turn it into a political discussion. Please do not bait people with quotes like this:

    Innocent Iraqi civilians have been killed as well, which would make "our" side evil if your argument is applied.
     
  10. CoonerTheRed

    CoonerTheRed IncGamers Member

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    just to tack on, let's keep this as a tribute to all who have died in similar events... as an American who lives in New York City, I know too well the Sept 11th events, but I have a friend who is from Madrid, Spain, and knew many of the victims in that bombing as well.
     
  11. slick4hire

    slick4hire IncGamers Member

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    I beg to differ. This was a moral statement, not political. I'm sorry you viewed it that way.
     
  12. sohcan

    sohcan IncGamers Member

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    Although I agree with the tribute mate a good deal of this is political regardless of which lines of borders one dwells in, and whether we want it to be or not. Outside of the tragedy itself this has had major repercussions globally. Some of the strongest have happened in the US with the passing of things like the infamous Patriot Act which severely impedes on the liberties of Americans yet is deemed "necessary" for their safety. As a Canadian I can only look south and shudder. Some Canadians also died that day, and the effects have been felt here ever since. People were being examined, rounded up, and possibly the victims of witch hunts because of their race and religion, and the same thing has happened to our American neighbours.

    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin

    It also has had visible effects on the rights of Americans to speak their minds, the most obvious being the incident involving the Dixie Chix. In a country where freedom of speech is so sacred it seems it has been changed to freedom of speech unless of course you disagree with the President or the current military campaign.

    "Freedom of Speech, but watch what you say." - Ice T

    I have nothing but respect for anyone willing to serve in the military and defend their country, liberty and so on. However disagreeing with a war should never be seen as trivializing the role of these men and women, yet it constantly is. "Support the soldiers they are fighting for your freedoms. " They are and one of those freedoms is the right to a political opinion even if it is contrary to the current leadership and current campaign.

    What scares me the most is if you look the two initial opposing leaders. Osama and George, both come from rich backgrounds of privilege. Both were/are racking up casualities of innocent civilians and military personal. Both are doing things in the name of their gods and countries. Both will never see frontline conflict, and both are highly protected. Although completely different the similarities in their status and ambitions are frightening. How much of this is a giant political power struggle that has nothing to with the common man or woman?

    People always claim religion is the basis and cause of the majority of wars in human history. Looking back I see it as people in positions of power justifying their actions in the name of religion. What truly motivates these people? Wealth and power. It always has, always will. Both sides of the conflict need citizens who are going to hold their leaders accountable and question their motives. Both sides need to examine their foreign and military policies.

    Focusing on remembering what happened and those who died in the tragedy of 9/11 is important, avoiding the burying of our collective heads in the sand about everything else involved is equally important.
     
  13. irish2

    irish2 IncGamers Member

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    Just a note to follow up. What about the incident involving the Dixie Chix has anything to do with freedom of speech? Freedom of speech is only freedom from government intrusion into the right, and should never be confused with people being held accountable for their speech by private citizens who make that known with their wallets. The right to not support someone else's ideas that I don't agree with is equally my right of free speech as the right of you to say those things I don't agree with.

    If the government did something, then that would be a different story, and perhaps I missed that as I don't really follow the Dixie Chix myself.

    Ed
     
  14. Spero

    Spero IncGamers Member

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    I thought your post was terrific. Very insightful.

    However, there's nothing limiting the Dixie Chicks from saying what they want to say. Remember that their fans also have the freedom to stop buying CDs and going to their concerts. It's one thing to stop making a ton of money or lose a record deal, and completely different to be killed or legally punished for saying what you think. What they said angered me. I do defend their right to say it, no matter how ridiculous it is.

    If I wanted to buy their music, I personally would buy it anyway. I don't get into that whole thing that everyone has to think the same as me or they're evil or wrong. I can appreciate people's gifts and value to society, whether they hold the same views as me, or not.

    Saying that George and Osama are basically the same doesn't make any sense to me. That part of your post I strongly disagree with. It seems like you've made up your mind about George because you don't like his politics. Kerry is married to the widow of another senator, a billionaire I think. Almost everyone in American politics is wealthy by my standards. Who cares? I think George is doing the right thing, and I think he's a good, honest hard working man. I have a lot of respect for him, though he's way too liberal in my opinion.

    I'm sorry if I'm getting too political here, but I do enjoy this kind of discussion. I agree that remembering the victims is the most important thing. Life would be boring if everyone agreed on everything! :thumbsup:
     
  15. sohcan

    sohcan IncGamers Member

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    I fully agree. My beef there was merely the calls from some people, Texans mostly, to boot them out of Texas, and even the odd call to lynch them. If they lose music sales I wouldn't shed a tear.

    And you are an individual understands the concepts of what is at stake. Again I agree.

    They aren't the same, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. But they do have similarities. I would however make the same statement if it was Ronald Regan, George Bush Sr, or any other person leading the country at this time. It's not a matter of disagreeing with one specific leader, or group of leader's, policies, it is a matter of pointing out how the two sides have some similarities when it comes to who is at the helm. The wealthy and the powerful are always at the helm and both sides are peppered with a history of personal agendas that have little or nothing to do with the people they represent. Even if I thought George Jr could do no wrong in his policies the similarities that do exist would still be there, in my opinion. This is a look at the us versus them mentality, and how as different as the leaders maybe some fundentmentals about them are the same.

    When people lose the ability to engage in rational discussion of differing views is when a problem arises. You have done no such thing and I commend you for it.

    I tend to be quite adamant in discussions as long these lines because I have run into situations firsthand that demonstrated to me that one needs to be. One such incident occured when I was in university and there was a protest going on about the provincial government of the day, in Canada we have provinces not states and premiers not senators, and I attended it. I was walking along wearing a shirt that supported the current government. A police officer and several people their warned me I should watch my back because the majority of people there wouldn't like my view. One gentleman even approached me and in said in the same breath, " We are here voicing our views, its our right so get the **** out of here with that shirt ******** before you get your *** kicked." To which I replied, "I see that right only applies to people who hold the same opinion as yourself, how enlightened. I personally would defend your right to an opposing view, but then again maybe I am misguided that way." ;)
     
  16. slick4hire

    slick4hire IncGamers Member

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    Gogo Spero. When people ask me about my stance on politics, I just tell them I am somewhere to the right of Musolini. Ususally that is enough for people to get the hint that I almost capsize to starboard without having abrasive conversations over actual issues. As seen in my earlier post, thats usually what happens when I dust off my soap box: *#@* people off.

    :teeth:
     
  17. killerxbabe

    killerxbabe IncGamers Member

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    Innocent Iraqi civilians have been killed as well, which would make "our" side evil if your argument is applied.[/QUOTE]



    Hmmm... Huge difference between purposefuly targeting noncombatants with the intent to commit murder and (i hate this term) "collateral damage" when attempting to free people from a tyrant.

    No offense Det, but with that type of logic you could say "well we shouldn't try and free those poor people from the concentration camp, because some stray bullets might kill some of them." Big difference between that and "Hey look, a bunch of people going to work! Let's drop a building on top of them!"

    All in all, very nice tribute. I hate that this fight has come to us. Not the first time we've had to stand up to a group of people who would like to force their world view upon the rest of us, won't be the last. But this one could go on for a while unfortunately.
     
  18. Omikron8

    Omikron8 IncGamers Member

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    I suppose i'll pull out the old comment that Americans care so much if a few thousand people die in their country but do not shed a tear or blink an eye when thousands or millions die in other parts of the world, unless it suits their interests eg. Israel. Americans have been so concerned since 9/11 of HOW the terrorists arranged that elaborate plan but have barely given any thought as to WHY they were attacked. It seems that they live in their own little country, oblivious to the culture or people of other countries, constantly enforcing their beliefs on how the world should be controlled (ie. make corporations rule everything from government to health care until your life is worth nothing more than a dollar and you wither away and die).I heard a quote (probably TV) that "American is simultaneously the most loved, admired, hated and feared country in the world".

    edit - As for that comment above of "people who kill are evil and cannot be negotiated or reasoned with", think before you speak. Imagine that you are a Palistininan living in Israel. Your freedoms are constantly violated by the Israeli army, you lose your job (blocking off cities to search for militants), your family is starving (no job no food) and you see no hope in sight. If you were in such a position and being oppressed like that, you might turn to violence as well as a last resort. You cannot use this ridiculous black and white system of labeling people as "good" or "evil" as everything is gray in today's global society. I am not an "Arab" but every time i hear generalizations like these it makes my blood boil.
     
  19. killerxbabe

    killerxbabe IncGamers Member

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    Uh oh... her we go...
     
  20. Kelicc

    Kelicc IncGamers Member

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    You make good points but don't rant against "generalizations" after you just made some yourself.



    You basically lumped all Americans together and I don't think that's fair. This thread is looking more and more like it should be in the OT forum to me.
     

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