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(OT)Ramblings of a madman...

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by Borlag, Feb 14, 2004.

  1. Borlag

    Borlag IncGamers Member

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    (OT)Ramblings of a madman...

    So we have a bunch of new members here in the forums, great. Read the FAQs and blame Durf for the things you didn't read...or something.

    Anyway, what's with the forum nowadays? There's people asking for stuff outside the giveaway thread, you do know that that's there for a reason don't you? Well, this is still only a small and rather meaningless matter in the big picture...

    So what's the real reason for this rant you might ask? Well, how come one can't post politely anymore without getting flaming and accusations all over the place. Sure there has been issues that are somewhat shady on whether it's accepted or not, like the -seed command, but even there just how difficult would it be not to post flamings or accusations on the issue just because "you" don't like the way "player this or player that" found an "item this"? If there's not a rule or general concensus about the issue, you can disagree on the legitness all you want but do not flame anyone for that.

    Then there's the high level runes issue. Whenever someone posts that they've acquired a high level rune there's instantly million of posts saying how "the highest I've ever seen is Um, that can't be legit". Just because you have had a bad luck with finding runes doesn't mean that everyone does. It's all about luck and propabilities. If you play alot, you're bound to have more chances of those lucky streaks, it's as simple as that. And so what if someone posts that they've cubed a rune this or rune that. We all know how incredibly rare the higher level runes are, we all know how much it takes to cube even one Vex out of the low level runes, not to mention the highest ones.

    None of us have any proof whatsoever whether these people have used illegit means to get the runes or not. Sure you can doubt their legitness, but as you have no proof, be quiet about it and make your own decisions on whether to trade or play with the member or not. And another thing here, a player might have a Zod rune and Tyrael's Might for example and still miss more common things like Hotspur or Lenymo, that all just depends on where you play. One can't expect low level stuff dropping on Pit or Baal runs. And at the same time, one can't expect the high level stuff dropping in act1 normal, they just don't, they can't. It's as simple as that.

    This is the Single Player Forum, if you doubt eveyrone's legitimacy, you have the option on just reading the strategy tips and guides here, the information about the game and all that, and then go play alone or with someone you don't doubt at all. That's completely up to you. No one is forcing you to trade, or to play MP games.

    Basically what this rant is all about is this: the forum FAQ says the same thing I say here; if you don't have nothing good to say, don't say anything.
     
  2. lone_wolf

    lone_wolf Diablo: IncGamers Member

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    nominate borlags post to the post of the month:D

    very good rant now i dont need to write one myself.

    as you covered all of it very nicely :thumbsup:
     
  3. SnakeEye85

    SnakeEye85 IncGamers Member

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    well i think the problem here is that there is to MUCH to read for new members. Some people just come here to get advice or answeres to their questions, not to read 20 pages about how this forum works etc etc..

    When those new members get a friendly, polite and helpfull answer to their question, they will realize how nice this forum is and then they will be interessted in getting more than just answeres to their questions. Then they will be interessted in joining us as regulars.

    But if we force new members to read thru faq´s and rules for hours before they can post, and then flame those that do wrong, then we won´t get many new "regulars"
    we will only get those who wants a couple answeres and some info and then they leave.....

    and the runething....yeah there´s been alot of high runes lately and i bet alot of those are fake, created and duped. But as long as we don´t have any 100%proof then we can´t blame anyone. But we can, as you said, ignore that person if he wanna trade that rune. But everyone should try to keep in with those bad comments.

    well thats what i think...
     
  4. Bolinbrooke

    Bolinbrooke IncGamers Member

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    I thought this forum supported the legitimate play of D2 in SP. Obviously no one is forcing people to trade but it should be expected that those trading are legit, not the other way around Borlag.

    I also beleive you have taken alot of posts out of context or do not understand the game mechanics well enough to understand why people say the things they do when confronted with some of the claims made here.
     
  5. Borlag

    Borlag IncGamers Member

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    Yes, this forum does support legimate play, but this forum does not support flaming. That is what I've seen lately, and alot. If there's absolutely no proof of cheating then there's absolutely no reason to post your doubts about that persons legitimacy.

    I believe I understand the game mechanics pretty well. I know how the upgrading of the runes work, and I know how easy it is to create legit looking runes by illegit means. I haven't taken anything out of context. I understand very well why people they say the things they do and I also understand the reason for the doubts of the high level runes, but again, aslong as there is no proof, one should simply be quiet about it.

    There's simply no reasons to start flamewars just because of doubting someone. Zero, nada, zip, zippo.

    This is what reads on the top of these forums, abusing other members in any way includes flaming and false accusations. Even if your accusations might not be false, the fact that there's no proof supporting the accusations make those accusations false.
     
  6. SnakeEye85

    SnakeEye85 IncGamers Member

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    offcourse this forum support legitimate play of D2

    but how would you feel if you were a new member to the forums and actually found a high lvl rune, got happy and wanted to share your find on the forum and then got flamed for it?

    im 100% with borlag on this one.....unless you are 100% sure, keep bad comments for yourself.
     
  7. Bolinbrooke

    Bolinbrooke IncGamers Member

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    That person would not be flamed if their claim was reasonable. It is when it ventures into the realm of unreasonability that questions are asked. Asking for explanations and further information is not a crime. Duping and hacking is.

    If you guys continue to stand by and do not ask questions and show a guiding hand this forum will degenerate further.
     
  8. Ashlen

    Ashlen IncGamers Member

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    You know, the main reason I have been using the SP forum more than all the others combined was because I almost never saw any flames here, period. As Borlag said, I hope this forum doesn't start falling down that path either...
     
  9. chaos

    chaos Diablo: IncGamers Member

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    16 zods (maybe more) now and counting. Say that its a non-issue, and i'll stop everything.

    Just say that its nothing, not worth any attention, that nothing bad will come out of it. Just say it.
     
  10. Borlag

    Borlag IncGamers Member

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    read what I wrote and think about it....

    I never said there isn't shady items in the SPF, I only said that stop the flaming unless you have any proof, and even then don't flame, there are better means of getting the SPF free of all hacked/duped etc, none of them involve flaming, what they do involve, is notifying the moderator and handling the issue properly
     
  11. chaos

    chaos Diablo: IncGamers Member

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    Do you really think that'll solve anything? Again, just say yes, and off i'll go...
     
  12. Borlag

    Borlag IncGamers Member

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    That's why we have a moderator, to keep the forums flame and hack free...

    If you feel that flaming is the better option then don't be surprised if some time when you flame someone without any proof that you'll have that status set to banned instead of the one that you accuse. This is the issue, whether you like it or not.

    Also we take pride in this forum for it being flame free and generally "better" than the rest of the forums. Do you really want to deteriorate the SPF into the same crap that's going on in the other forums and realms? I think not...

    Umm on another thought...make that I hope not...
     
  13. randy

    randy IncGamers Member

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    16? wow, if i had 16 i wouldn't mind people spelling my name wrong now and again huh choas? :)
     
  14. XaviarGangrel

    XaviarGangrel IncGamers Member

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    I have to agree with everything Borlag said, I was amazed when I first came here. A forum that was polite, freindly and didnt mock or flame newbies? Surely such a thing did not exist!... But I found this place, and it is indeed a nice, polite, freindly place. I really hope that the accusations I've seen lately are not signs of things to come. I also think that just saying to a New Poster "Read the FAQ's you N00B" or something equally unpleasent is not needed.. a better way would be to answer the question politely, and point them to the FAQ.

    I always think its its important to remember a few things when you see something unlikely in a post...

    "Do unto others as you would have done unto you" - in other words, dont be rude, unpleasent or treat others badly, because you wouldnt want it to happen to you.

    "Innocent till proven guilty" - Simple one that, unless you actually have hard proof of wrong doing, then dont flame... question, politely.

    "Nothing is impossible, meerly improbible" - not entirely acurate perhaps, but the basic idea is that just because you've not seen it, and dont think it can happen.. doesnt mean it cant.

    Perhaps its because I'm from England (as I was once told that "everyone knows the English are all about manners and stuffyness"), but I was always raised to believe that good manners cost nothing. And having spent a few years now chatting to people and playing games online, can only say that people are people, it doesnt matter if you speak to them in the street, or via the internet, you should be as polite and decent to everyone as you would want them to be too you under the same circumstances.

    edit : one of many spelling errors, I may be polite but I cant spell! :lol:
     
  15. chaos

    chaos Diablo: IncGamers Member

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    You don't seem to understand how damn difficult AE's position is...

    Ok, i'll try to present my point. You know there are shady runes. You also know its just about impossible to prove anything. Completely impossible, IMnotsoHO. And it isn't just us, the whole feeling that something is very wrong with runes here permeates the entire forum. A recent thread here http://forums.rpgforums.net//showthread.php?t=132531 elicited hardly any congratulations. Is that normal?

    Suspicion blankets the forum, and not without good reason. And will it get worse? You bet. From now on, every rune find, rune cube, is just gonna be met with suspicion. Save maybe by the very most respected members here.

    A legit newcomer coming in with a good amount of high runes will be treated with distrust. And you may say it'll be our fault for posting harshly, but even if we didn't say it out, can you deny that most will feel that something's wrong?

    Trust has been abused, abused very badly. Irrecoverrably, some might say.

    Some others may say we can always choose to trust again, but in the face of certain looming facts, i'd rather call it naievete that trust to believe everything now.

    Back to AE's position. Apologies first, good mod, for talking about you in the 3rd party and making quite some assumptions. ;) Someone reports something. He reads the story, with certain loopholes to check out. Yet all he can do, is ask. He cannot investigate, heck we're just aliases floating out here on the net. And stories can patched so easily. You know the drill.

    "oh, my friend gave it to me. I know him/her to be 100% legit"

    "oh, i made a mistake. It wasn't the countess. It was hellforge."

    "oh, i didn't just use Dols. Used the Cham i found, and some Guls and many lower runes from my friends."

    And then? What can AE do? Ermm you! Tell me who your friend is, turn in his HDD and i'll inspect it to see if there's anything unlegit there. Oh yea? You made a mistake? Call forensics, look through the hard drive and see if it really happens. Yea right.

    So he can just question, and of course the other party will answer. Always its possible to make excuses, and then what?

    Of course, then you'll ask, do i have a solution?

    No. But i see adaptation to a new age, where trust isn't given freely and taken for granted. I don't advocate flaming, and if you'll notice, most of us "doubters" don't flame at all. For many of us, we ask our questions and leave it at that. The forum members then make their judgement call, and lest i be very mistaken, most are becoming increasingly distrusting, even if they don't voice it out. I cite the lack of congratulations as an indication of sorts.

    Is this the right thing? I don't know, i can't be a judge for the forum. But if one day AE says this shouldn't go on, i'll take my bow and exeunt stage left. ^^

    Now i ask you, what does the forum choose? Silence on this matter, and let the runes proliferate? Or a more vocal approach, if somewhat aggressive? Not an easy choice? I can always bow out of this place, and stay at where the forefathers of this forum reside. I'm really interested to hear no-holds-barred comments from the formites on this...

    PS: damn you, rnady. :p
     
  16. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo IncGamers Member

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    Lucky me, eh? ;)

    Borlag, I think I understand your post. I share your feeling about being careful not to accuse without proof. But I'm not sure I agree with your definition on flaming. I get to look at a number of D2 forums, and see some of the "abusive/flaming" threads. And the ones we see here are really not too bad. I don't get too many reported posts, and 90% of those are about cheats & dupes - not flames. So far I haven't had to ban anyone for flaming.

    Then there are the high level runes and runewords. This situation has me completely befuddled. I've only had one case where a person admitted to passing hacked runes & he was banned. In all of the other situations there was no duping proof (there never will be either :rolleyes: ), so they are still here.

    The collective claim of 16 or so Zod runes is just too hard to believe. Some or maybe many of these runes were obtained illegitimately. Anyone that thinks otherwise IMO has their head in the sand. But who are the legitimate people? We don't know.

    I'mpersonally to the point where I don't believe any high end rune claims anymore. Sad. As our moderator, I think I am in the dubious position where I have to at least tolerate the claims. And posts like this one:

    Give me a headache :grrr:
     
  17. Kaysaar

    Kaysaar IncGamers Member

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    I think what Borlag has to say is a legitimate concern. While we do pride ourselves on legitimate play, and the opposition of hacks etc, I think the big thing is the atmosphere of this place that draws people to it. The majority of the time people are generally good mannered. But I too have noticed the trend of people getting up in arms when someone finds an excellent item, especially runes. It seems like so many people are looking to lynch someone at the slightest mention of the word Zod.

    It's my opinion that if you have a strong reason as to why you think a person might be trying to deal illegitimate items into our economy, then PM AlterEgo stating your case, and let him deal with it. This way we can maintain the friendly atmosphere without having every congratulatory thread become a witch-hunt.

    In my mind, it's more important for us to maintain our sense of community, ESPECIALLY when it comes to newer members. It seems like people are becoming fanatical, and if this keeps on happening this place will stop being a:
     
  18. chaos

    chaos Diablo: IncGamers Member

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    * points to my earlier post, and Alter Ego's. *
     
  19. Kaysaar

    Kaysaar IncGamers Member

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    When I was typing mine AE was hard at work on his too. He is apparently one of the faster gunmen in the west.
     
  20. Andrew

    Andrew IncGamers Member

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    You opinion is much respected chaos, and i agree with you. I think.. abotu 2-3 forum crahses/wipes ago, we had a zod count, befor 1.10 was out, and there were like... 3? 4? besides the 5-6 that tenshi had/traded for... hahaha.. but he was one mad MFer... (sorry tenshi... lol... but collecting all ethereal uniques is really mad to me). And that was the time where pindle runs took less than a minute, where people do 1000 runs... nowadays? it's 50 and in "technicolour" lol... But of course, pit's are much harder... hehe... and they ahve more bosses too.

    16? too much to me... Half that amount, and i would believe... but 16? wow...

    Neways, I wish people who wanted to dupe thier runes would just do it quietly and NOT let it come in contact with the SPF. Do what you want with your own game.. just don't mess others... and pretend you didnt... :lol:
     

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