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OT: A couple of stories

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by Tarr, Jun 23, 2005.

  1. Tarr

    Tarr IncGamers Member

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    OT: A couple of stories

    I was just reading some things on a few other gaming websites, and I found some things that may prove of interest to the forumites, as they're gaming related. First, an interesting article (slightly offensive language warning)

    http://my.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3141457

    It's primarily a disccusion about console games and not PC games, and there's no specific mention of Diablo 2, but I think anyone here who's played on battle.net can relate.

    The other story, and one that has enraged my normally peaceful demeanor. A transcript from American 24 hours news network CNN.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Everybody, we are shifting gears. Don`t worry. We`ll take you back to Aruba tomorrow night.

    You remember that video game called Grand Theft Auto? Some stores actually refused to carry it because it was so violent? Well, hold on to your hats. Now there`s 25 to Life, and the object is to kill cops. That`s right. You get rewarded on this video game if you kill cops. We called the company who`s putting this thing out. It`s called Idos (ph). We called Idos headquarters in California. They did not return our calls. We tried to call them in Great Britain. No response. In earlier reports, when they were asked to comment on this video game, they always say no comment.

    Tonight, in Asheville, North Carolina, trial attorney Jack Thompson. We`re bringing in the rest of our panel tonight. Jack, bring me up to date. What is 25 to Life? Hey, Elizabeth, can you show me 25 to Life while Jack is talking?

    And I also want to show everybody one after the next, after the next police officers that lost their life in the line of duty! Now, this is a video game, and you`re seeing at the bottom of this screen, real-life cops that lost their lives trying to protect you and me.

    Jack, hit it.

    JACK THOMPSON, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Nancy, there are three cops that are dead in Alabama because of Grand Theft Auto by City, two cops and a dispatcher. So we know that these cop-killing games are leading to these killings because that`s what they are, they`re murder simulators. Xbox, of course, which this game will be available on, along with Sony`s Playstation 2 — you have to ask Bill Gates, What are you thinking? Here`s a philanthropist and a powerful man, the richest man in the world, and yet he`s making available to children around the world on Xbox a cop-killing game.

    The military, Nancy, uses these murder simulators, killing simulators…

    GRACE: Oh!

    THOMPSON: … to break down the inhibition of new recruits to kill. And therefore, of course it`ll have that same effect on teenage civilians. So the reality is that these games are leading to deaths, and in fact, there`s a University of Indiana study that came out three days ago that showed that kids process these games in the part of the brain that leads to copycatting.

    GRACE: Incredible! Incredible! I can hardly even focus on what you`re saying, Jack. Elizabeth, please continue showing it because what I`m looking at is the picture of one cop after the next, Dino Lombardi, that we are showing gunned down in the line of duty, Dino!

    DINO LOMBARDI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, people kill cops. Video games don`t kill cops.

    GRACE: OK. You know what? I knew you`d say that. Debra Opri?

    DEBRA OPRI, ATTORNEY FOR JACKSON`S PARENTS: You know, you are really upsetting me, Nancy, because you used the 1st Amendment to destroy Michael Jackson, and you won`t use the 1st Amendment to protect an entertainment company. Does anybody remember Charlie Chaplin in the early days of movies, silent movies? He picked on cops. He attacked cops. He was such a problem to Herbert Hoover and the FBI…

    GRACE: OK, you know what?

    (CROSSTALK)

    GRACE: Thank you for bringing up Herbert Hoover and Charlie Chaplin.

    OPRI: Can I tell you something?

    GRACE: When we come back, we`ll be talking about 25 to Life. You`re seeing a line-up of one cop after the next killed in the line of duty. And this video machine is being marketed and sold. It comes out in August on the shelves of stores in your neighborhood. Look at this.

    (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

    GRACE: Well, Senator Chuck Schumer is asking the video game 25 to Life be boycotted. It depicts street gang violence, killing cops. This is what your kids will be digesting if you buy this for $49.95. You`re seeing at the bottom of the screen one law officer after the next gunned down in the line of duty.

    To Bethany Marshall. You know, the U.S. Supreme Court just ruled in 2003 — I`ve got it right in front of me — that video games have nothing to do with violence. Thoughts?

    BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, I`ll tell you what does have do with violence, strong emotional experiences. And when those kids are gaming and they press the button or the mouse and they actually kill somebody and there`s an emotional charge that does rewire the brain. And another thing that affects violence is lack of parental rules. So a question I have with these games are, Where are the parents.

    GRACE: You know, Dino Lombardi, I`ve only got one minute left. But in the last Tennessee shooting, where a kid shot two cops and a third person, they had been watching this Grand Theft Auto for days on end. It said life is like a video game. And you`re still telling me this is OK?

    LOMBARDI: Well, I`m not saying it`s OK, but I don`t support censoring it.

    GRACE: Yes, you are!

    LOMBARDI: I`m not saying it`s OK, Nancy.

    GRACE: We censor porn…

    LOMBARDI: … and you know I`m not saying it`s OK.

    GRACE: … don`t we? We censor porn. Why would we let there be cop- shooting videos?

    LOMBARDI: We have movies where cops are killed, and we have many instances of people who have killed…

    GRACE: But kids can get this!

    LOMBARDI: … who we can show they can have watched such movies.

    GRACE: Jack…

    LOMBARDI: It`s not…

    GRACE: … children can get this, Jack Thompson!

    LOMBARDI: Yes. The 1st Amendment, people who understand the 1st Amendment know does not protect the right of a company to sell an M-rated game to a child.

    GRACE: Jack, Jack, I`ve…

    THOMPSON: Children don`t have a 1st Amendment…

    GRACE: … only got 20 seconds. Jack…

    THOMPSON: Yes?

    GRACE: … we logged on to buy Grand Theft Auto. We didn`t buy it, but it says, If you`re under 17, click here. That`s all it takes, Jack. Anybody can get this.

    THOMPSON: Exactly. And there`s no penalty, except in Illinois…

    GRACE: Boy!

    THOMPSON: … if you sell…

    GRACE: OK.

    THOMPSON: … a game like this to a child.

    GRACE: Guys, we`ve run out of time. I want to thank all of my guests tonight, but my biggest thank you, as always, to you for being with us, inviting all of us into your home.

    Coming up, headlines from all around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off again for tonight. I hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I'm so sick of the mainstream media here in the US. "Three cops dead by Grand Theft Auto." The disc jumped out of the system and shot people? Or maybe the teens responsible for the shootings had an attorney that suggested blaming it on a videogame? Why would they do that? Certainly not to shift the blame from themselves, and possibly at the same time give themselves an excuse to file a probably fruitful lawsuit against a game company. And of course, it's not the parents' fault for not knowing what kids are playing, just like it wasn't parents' faults for not knowing what kids were watching thirty years ago before videogames, and crimes were being blamed on violent TV shows.

    Of course it's nothing new for media in the US, where everything a news bobblehead says is fact and anyone that disagrees with them is a terrorist, communist, or other freedom hater. (My definition of mainstream media are the newspapers in national circulation, the major networks' news departments, and the 24 hour news stations.) But I'm hijacking my own thread.

    Everyone on this forum plays Diablo 2. It's an M rated game, for violence, even if it's "fantasy" violence and not "realistic" violence. Anyone else outraged by this?

    Sorry, that's huge. But I hope it's a good read.
     
  2. Shade

    Shade IncGamers Member

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    First article: sadly, you can't do anything much about cheating. There's always another way, for those who want to take it; those who say they cheat only to 'level the playing field' are in the wrong, though. I started out crap in CS:S, and still am. But I'm getting better, through playing against bots, learning the maps, and so on. If you want a game you can pick up and play, go buy Tetris. Or Pacman.

    Second article:

    I was going to write a long, detailed reply picking out all the holes in that. Then I went back, reread it, thought 'what am I doing?' and deleted it.

    There's no point in my commenting on what hand-picked 'experts' with very specific views say, as it doesn't really take that much to pick up on one thing and sensationalise it. In fact, the media have been doing exactly that for years... and sell copy/gain viewership/whatever from it.

    The best thing to do, in my opinion, is to ignore these people. Sooner or later, they'll just go away if noone listens to them.
     
  3. lone_wolf

    lone_wolf Diablo: IncGamers Member

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    :D rock and roll was a bad thing when it came around ;)

    people always look for scrapegoats(sp?) so the fact that medie uses it to sell is not to supricing.

    one of the first thing a medie or journalist student lern is that bad things sell much more then good things. of course there are other factors that play a part.
     
  4. The_Three_United

    The_Three_United IncGamers Member

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    Well, videogames are videogames even though they are violent like GTA, horror-like as DOOM series or fun and addictive like Diablo 2. The only thing that matters is that you don't quite have to make them a purpose in life, you just have to play and enjoy them as they are. There are other hobbies out there like sport and such that give you a great deal of satisfaction. I just think it all comes down to willpower and comprehension of things.
     
  5. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo IncGamers Member

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    On the second article...

    I wouldn't buy GTA or let my step-sons load or play it in our home. They thought I was some sort of wicked person, and just didn't understand -- "it's just a game". Whatever, I held my ground. Of course they played it at their friends' homes... :rolleyes:

    25 to Life (which I know absolutely nothing about), seems to have crossed a line of decency/responsibility. I wonder why the creators have "no comment". In the US, that's called "taking the 5th" (amendment). :rolleyes:
     
  6. dune6836

    dune6836 IncGamers Member

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    this subject is complex. not least because the human brain is a complex machine that we dont yet understand, (can the human brain ever really understand itself?).

    my own view is that if you are predisposed to being a homicidal maniac then you will likely do maniacal things whether you play video games, watch violent films or engage in violent sports. if you live in a society, for eg, where you can buy guns in corner stores then you must accept that the insane will use them.

    i remember all the furore that surrounded the "video nasties" in the 70's and early 80's. driller killer, texas chain saw massacre, evil dead, dawn of the dead and flesh eaters were demonized in the media as evil travesties that would herald in the new apocalypse. as a matter of record all those films have now been shown, uncut, on british network tv. did they do any harm? i cannot answer that, i thought they were funny in places and not nearly as scary or disturbing as the previous generation of psychological horror films, like psyco.

    i got this link in an email today.. http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18625053.200 interesting stuff

    it is dangerous to generalise as the popular press tend to do. if there was a strong link between violent games and real life violence we would all be beating strangers to a bloody pulp with spiked clubs.

    you cannot legislate against insanity.
     
  7. adeadrat

    adeadrat IncGamers Member

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    i think the problem is that parents do not parent anymore, here in america. we prefer to blame a third party instead of taking responisibility for out actions. Don't think little bobby should be able to play Krush Kill 'n Destroy? DONT LET HER. It's the same thing with pr0n, or 'R' movie. You are a parent...PARENT!

    Kudos to AE :)

    /doesn't believe censorship, just good parenting
    //have great parents
    ///libertarian :D

    EDIT: i read the above article and i see nothing new there, but begs the questions: Do video game really train us to kill? Perhaps they train us to think more rationaly? (less emotion)? Or are people more inclined to violence attracted to violent video games? Or is it simply a natural response, because we know a video game is NOT real, and therefore we naturally shut down our emotional cortexes. The article didn't mention what they were comparing against (if any), just what happens with a video gamer. However, the brain is a very complex machine. A few brain scans will not answer our problem. Just my $0.02.
     
  8. Kool69

    Kool69 IncGamers Member

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    @adeadrat and dune6836: Exactly what I think. =D

    Oh and yes kudos (bars) to AE, america needs more good parents like you who arn't wimps and try to buy their kids off from doing stuff. "Well bobby if you don't play Krush 'n' Kill for a week and get all b's or better on your report card then we will give you $100" Sadly I know someone who got paid a $100 for getting a's and b's on their report card. Pfft, it's my *job* to get a's on my report card. =D
     
  9. Sir Lister of Smeg

    Sir Lister of Smeg IncGamers Member

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    Dependent on what you would set as penalty, it would require the whole human race to be imprisoned or extinguished.

    In a way the former has already happened, we're al imprisoned in human society.
     
  10. farting bob

    farting bob Banned

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    So they might ban a game that allows or encourages you to kill cops, but killing innocent civilians is acceptable?
    @kool: Act really stupid for a while, then in an effort to increase your grades, they'll offer you money.
     
  11. Kool69

    Kool69 IncGamers Member

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    Can't do it now >_< Already been through 10 years of school with good grades. They would just take away everything I like, drawing, friends, D2, etc, etc and make me study. So basically instead of money I would get a life of living hell :lol:
     
  12. killmesh

    killmesh IncGamers Member

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    ok on the first article not much you can do there except do what we did and leave the cheaters.

    as for the second article. Well i played doom and doom 2 when i was 4/5 years old i played duke and nukem hexan and quake many killing games. I never went on a rampage and started killing people. If your child is so retarded that he doesntt know between reality and fantasy then heres a tip for ya. dont leave him anywhere near a gun. And as for the kid shotting and killing 2 cops and another person all i have to say is hes a pretty god shot and games dopnt teach that he had to have been training somewhere else. The choice is the persons not the game. if im going to jump off a bridge and a person plays a song that says just do it is it the songs fault i jumped? Another thing if a kid orders th game off the internet he has to use a check or credit card and if he uses his parents then i hate to tell you this but he was bad before he got the game.
     
  13. DougTheHead2

    DougTheHead2 IncGamers Member

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    Wow, that is an excellent point! I wish the people on that show had popped that off...

    ---------------
    "Kids can buy this off the internet! All you do is click a button that says your 17, thats it!"

    "Ok, and then they pay for it.... how?"

    "..." (stumped)
    --------------

    No one under 18 should have their own credit card, and I know I watch my bill close. If there was a mysterious 49.95 charge on there, I would probably see it and then that game would be the least of a kid's concerns...
     
  14. dune6836

    dune6836 IncGamers Member

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    are we free to travel, or are we trapped in our cars?..

    the reason you cannot guard against the kind of insanity that causes someone to take a gun, walk into a school and blow away anything that moves, followed by themselves, is that such folk are not interested in consequences.
    the same holds for anyone crazy enough to act out what they do or see in a computer game or film. there was a case not long ago in china where a man killed his friend after he stole his sword in a computer game. this isnt rational and no amount of laws will prevent it.

    banning a violent game because 1 person out of 3,000,000 will run amok is not the answer. its like curing the common cold by killing all the humans. it would work but it isnt desirable (misanthropy aside)

    do computer games cause violent tendances in humans? no, i my view we are naturally violent, it is the reason we are at the top of the food chain.
    do they provide an outlet for those inate tendencies? yes probably, in the same way that sport and warfare does.
    and will some humans take it too far and loose sight of reality? yes.
    should we ban them because of it? lets ban warfare first..

    --
    edit..
    just read killmesh's post. many of these games have an 18 cert anyway, doesnt seem to stop them being sold over the counter to under 18's . also many parents have no idea what little jonny does on his computer or what the content of some of these games are. the industry has a "childish" image. and little jonnys grandma thinks she is being a good grandparent when she buys "headshot copkill mania 111" for him.
    also there have been post on this forum about folks younger brother played diablo and did this or the other. little bro is 6 or 7 and diablo has a 15+ cert...
     
  15. killmesh

    killmesh IncGamers Member

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    the thing about that article is that it says if your in a similar encounter you would be primed to act more aggressive but the encounter they are refering too is rescueing hostages ....shouldnt you be aggressive at that time you dont wanna get killed cause you were a sissy. Then why dont we let the cops who are worried for thier lives play this game to get thier brains to adapt like the kids brains have. i mean children are normal until they kill people but the game gets them ready right? so if the police officers know the way they will act they could counteract those measures. You know why they dont like it?
    I do its cause they suck at games like that
     
  16. farting bob

    farting bob Banned

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    Your young, still plenty of time to get infamous.
    And i agree with dune. You cant ban a game because 1 already ****ed up person killed someone after playing it. If that was true for all forms of media, then we would have banned TV, cinema, radio, comics, books, the internet and all forms of music a long time ago. Video games are no different IMO.
     
  17. dune6836

    dune6836 IncGamers Member

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    i dont think the article was trying to make any moral statments. thats the beauty of pure research. it simply demonstrates a link between the way our brains respond to real life situations and cyber ones.
     
  18. killmesh

    killmesh IncGamers Member

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    im young yes but i know better than to go killing people .First off i have owned a firearm but i never use it its never loaded and i dont have bullets but if im home and someone breaks in to see a revolver pointed at them they tend to turn and run. however if it ever got serious im screwed but even then in that situation i wouldnt kill the person. Cause its my ass on the line. However i did live in kentucky with a shotgun sittin by the porch door. The point is the same we should be held responsible for our actions. its like having a drug addict saying o god my addiction is a disease its not my fault i have it. Yet he dosnt point out that he didnt have the "disease" before he started usin crack. Every1 gets pissed at people in theyre lifetimes and if you decide to go and make something of it then u deserve to go to jail and whatever the judge decides. Because YOU did the wrong thing therefore YOU are responsible dont bs me sayin o a game made me do it.
     
  19. killmesh

    killmesh IncGamers Member

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    ah true i didnt look at it that way. but i still think you should be held accountable for your own wrong doings
     
  20. Kool69

    Kool69 IncGamers Member

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    My little sister is 8 and she plays Diablo II, she doesn't try to kill me with my sword (Yes I have a sword in my bedroom, anti-theft device) for my itemz. Like dune said, you can't ban a game because someone is previously screwed up, plays the game, and trys to go off and do what they saw in the game. People just need to have common sense and if they know their kid (which all parents should), know that their kid is violent and prone to suggestion, then they should have some balls, straighten the kid out, and not let them play those games.

    Exactly. Too bad their's always going to be those over protective people to screw everyone else over with getting something "banned" because of stupid people. A good example of this is here www.realultimatepower.net obviously this site is just for kicks, everything is not factual, but some stupid mom tried to sue this kid that made this site because her kids "became violent" after they looked at that site and hurt each other. Well maybe you shouldn't of let them look at that site, and maybe you should of knocked some sense into their heads so they wouldn't beat each other up. (However this is how siblings boy and girl/boy and boy/girl and girl/ or multiple act to each other, they fight.)

    :rant:

    [/rant]

    -Kool69
     

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