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Orb/Hydra PvM build

Discussion in 'Sorceress' started by pYura, Sep 22, 2006.

  1. pYura

    pYura IncGamers Member

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    Orb/Hydra PvM build

    Hello everyone, I'm new to the forum and this is my first post. I was thinking about a good build and want to know what to you think of it.

    Ok, this is a first character, so I dont have enigma and such uber items. So my goal is to MF, kill bosses and a LOT of common creatures relativly fast.

    I'm planning to use FrozenOrb as main attack, and Hydra to clear out the cold immune.

    Main attack must be maxed to be effectiv.

    So here is the build:

    COLD SPELLS: 20orb+20icebolt+20mastery+1shiver armor+5pre=66
    LIGHTNING SPELLS: 1static+1tele+1pre=3
    FIRE SKILLS:
    20hydra+1mastery+1warmth+3pre=25

    That is 94skillpoints meaning lvl82 wich is fully reachable.

    STR: 95 (with charms you can get more if you want an upped plate but its enough for WarTraveller)
    DEX: +0 (I want to use Lidless and it needs too much dex points for max block)
    VIT: all the rest (no manashild!)
    NRG: 100 (I dont want to run out of mana all the time, should be more than enough)


    Q: Why no mana shield?
    A: 1damage point takes 2 manapoints if you dont put on telekinses (if you do max it out you wont have enough point for attack skills). Wich is waste of stat points (1damage point vs 1 hitpoint loss) but you could say that with frostburn and SoJs you can get double mana so no stat point wasting BUT you will take HUGE damage from enemy spells since energy shield does not benefit from resistances you will get the double damage and points wasted to energy. (You dont waste energy points only if you get lvl40 manashield and maxed telekinses but this is a waste of skillpoints) Ok anyway, I think you got it and see why did I choose this path. (This doesnt mean that other sorcresses any worse...)

    Q:Why only 1 point on warmth?
    A: Insight rune word:) very cheap and even better.

    Q: Why not blizzard instead of FO?
    A:
    -I dont want to spam the screen and see nothing.
    -It is not much stronger. (notice cast delay and the fact that 1 frozen orb shoots more fragments)
    -And if want to max it out I wont have any point for other attack skills.

    Q: Why not firewall instead of hydra or any other fire skill?
    A: More reliable. You can leave it and be sure that it hits the target. And its fun :) Fireball needs syenergys and I hate the sound of meteor, and you can hit sh!t with it if the target moves.

    ps.: thanks for any input, plz dont flame and sorry for my english.

    ps2.: I calculated that I will have about 850 life and 360 mana without items. I dont have the paper here but will update it in a few days...
     
  2. kuafu

    kuafu IncGamers Member

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    Welcome to the forum!
    Based on what you've said, it seems that you know pretty well what you're doing, and just want to try something new and fun, so I'm not going to suggest any cliche builds like meteorb instead:smiley:.
    The build looks ok to me, except that I'd suggest putting only 1 point in ice bolt, and put the saved 19 points into fire mastery instead. The synergy from ice bolt to frozen orb is quite limited, while the fire mastery should boost your hydra a lot. Just my two cents.
    Edit: one more thing... since you're using neither block nor ES, you should try to get your vitality as high as possible. Both FO and Hydra are timed and you're planning to use Insight, so I don't see the need to pump energy to 100. I think you should leave energy as base and dump all saved points into vitality.
     
  3. Lyndis

    Lyndis IncGamers Member

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    This build would not be as good compared to other builds because your synergy priorities are whack.

    It's not worth it to pump ice bolt because Orb doesn't benefit that much from it. You also didn't pump fire mastery or hydra synergies.

    Your fire damage is going to SUCK so much you'll never kill cold immunes. You're doing a pure cold sorc that doesn't do enough damage (compared to a blizzard sorc) and wasting points in a fire skill that won't do enough damage because you didn't pump any synergies at all.
     
  4. pYura

    pYura IncGamers Member

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    Maxed Icebolt gives a 1,40x to FrozenOrb damage, maxed FireMastery gives [about] 1,66x to Hydra. I want to use FO 98% of the time and leave Hydra to kill some annoying immun monsters in solo game. I know Hydra wont be effective in a full party but why would I use it when the others can take care of the immuns anyway. In my build the Hydra will have a damge of 500-800 / shot from 3 heads. An average monster in hell with 5k health will survive less than 3 seconds. And it is only 1 Hydra at a time.
    Back to Orb: I dont I think I want to let the 1,40 beacouse if you have facets and other items that give you +% to cold damage it counts a lot.

    About energy/vitality balance I will have to think maybe basic energy will be enough (If I can get some mana giving items in the beginning).

    lvl 15 meditation+ lvl 11 warmth = 800% mana regen. with 540mana I will get 40mana/sec wich is = Orb mana cost at lvl 32. Lets say I will use frostburn and SoJs (if I got lucky) and shako also gives 100+mana and Lidless gives mana/kill. Yes I think I dont have to put any point on energy, you are right :) I will have to make a full calculation though.
     
  5. pYura

    pYura IncGamers Member

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    ps.: by lvl 99 Fire Mastery can reach lvl 19 (+skillers)

    ps.: and dont forget that extra 40% damage got from icebolt bot multiplied by ice mastery not like the 66% extra damage from fire mastery to hydra :)
     
  6. melianor

    melianor D3 Wizard Moderator

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    Welcome to the forums!

    Here some suggestions:
    Your Hydra will not do enough damage. Reaching lvl99 is something you will accomplish in a couple of month of constant playing if you are lucky.

    To make Hydra effective with Orb, you will need to leave out Orb synergies. Forzen Orb does enough damage for PvM and in 8 player games without maxed synergy or maxed Cold Mastery.

    Hydra on the other side needs alot of damage boost, not only from Fire Mastery, unless you just want to use it as a backup spell, which helps your Mercenary, while he takes the cold immune monsters apart.

    To make Hydra effective in this build as well, i would suggest this setup.

    1 Warmth
    20 Firebolt
    20 Fireball
    20 Hydra
    1-x Fire Mastery
    1 Static Field
    1 Telekinesis
    1 Teleport
    20 Frozen Orb
    1-x Cold Mastery

    Getting some +skills is easy, since you can make some easy to build runewords early on. This way you will both boost your cold and fire damage.

    Also with just Hydra and Frozen Orb you will have no spell you can spam all the time, since both have a casting timer, which will interfer with each other. So with the setup i wrote above you will also get a very nice damage Fireball which you can cast inbetween the time when you can't cast either Hydra or Frozen Orb.

    Otherwise i would suggest to not use Lidless, but simply make a Spirit runeword in a monarch. Str req ist high (156), but its well worth it, especially when you do not head down the block route.

    If you really want a build with total emphasise on Frozen Orb i would suggest adding Energy Shield with Telekinesis as synergy and simply let your Merc take care oft he rest.
     
  7. MageChick

    MageChick IncGamers Member

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    Man, you caught some harsh critics. I'll give you bonus points for not doing the cookie cutter thing, but that doesn't count much against meph or baal. But its still cool to do somehting different.

    I think your basic idea could work, but it will be really slow going in hell. If you're ok with that, just tweak it a bit and suck it up. I'm sure it will be fun. It will also play real well all the way through NM (where FO rules supreme anyway).

    I wouldn't bother to max CM though. Above slvl 17 the effectivnes is limited. If you're going to use some facets or skillers later you may want room to grow. If you put 20 points into CM, then eventually end up with lots of +cold skill gear, you will have a lot of wasted skill points. I'd stop at 10 hard points into CM as an absolute max. Even with moderate, untwinked gear that should get you to slvl 17 (2 orb, 1 armor, 1 helm, 1 shield, 2 amy). You can get twice that much or more if you work on it. That will free up at least 10 points for your build.

    I'd also drop the cold armor skill. They just don't do all that much. I suppose it's only 1 point, no big loss. But I think there's better places for it.

    I'd drop those saved 11 points into Fire Mastery - you'll really need the extra damage. Even after that I'd keep investing in Fire Mastery until you have it maxed out. If you followed me to this point, you can max it out by lvl 90 (still doable). If you go beyond that put the points into firebolt.

    This will probably give you a minimally workable hydra, but it will still be real weak. Melianor's suggestion will round you out a lot better. But your idea isn't that bad. It does seem like you know what your doing and you actually thought it out. This could work, but without any fast cast spells it will be real slow.
     
  8. pYura

    pYura IncGamers Member

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    melianor: in your setup the hydra is twice as strong but the Orb is much weaker. (CM -100% and icebolt -40%) and since I cannot cast the simultaniously as you said I have no benefit from it. Not maxed Orb is not not enogh IMHO. And yes hydra is only a backup/fun speel not the "cookie cutter" :))

    The Spirit runeword look realy nice, I will definitely try that instead of lidless. Thank fo rhte tip.

    Maxed cold tree + no points on fire spells =16telekinses and 6+10 energy shield =72% absorb. Yes, this is a very good setup also, I had some sorc like this befor ;) hmm (occulus+vipermagi+lidless/spirit>60fcr=not slow imo :smiley: )


    Ok, some questions: how much defense do I need in hell? Do I need high at all? Becouse spell and bosses will hit me anyway, melee attackers wont reach me so it would count only against archers. I think I could get a merc from Act2 with might aura and boost my orb/hidra damage. I wonder what level are the auras they are using...

    I think I will save the last 10 points (from lvl72) and see where to put it in hell (cold mastery or fire mastery)

    Thanks guys for all the suggestion, I realy apprichiate your help :)
     
  9. Bladewind

    Bladewind IncGamers Member

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    Congrats on trying something non cookie cutter but here is the bad news.

    If you are trying to mf via the moat trick, Blizzard/Meteor/Fball is HEAPS more effective than Frozen Orb. Orb also require you to be alot closer to the edge to get as many cold shards to hit meph and that will be withnin his spell range.

    With Fball, meteor or blizzard, mfing meph is much easier because the radius of the spell will get him even if you spam off screen.
     
  10. kuafu

    kuafu IncGamers Member

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    I think you're confusing CM with the other two masteries. Unlike the other two, CM lowers enemy cold resist instead of raising your cold skill damages. Assuming you have 16+ skills from your gears (which is quite reasonable), one point in CM means lowering enemy resistance by -100, which is the negative cap if the monster starts with 0 cold resistance. For hell meph, you'll need -175 cold resist to lower him to -100, so it's lvl32 CM assuming no -cold resist from gears (which is probably not very reasonable). That means lvl16 CM with +16 from gears. So as you can see, it's almost never necessary to put 20 points into CM.
     
  11. Still-Xey-Lover

    Still-Xey-Lover IncGamers Member

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    I am going to make this build soon, and i think im gonna go full tals simply because its cheap, high mf, gives decent dmg and it gives the -15% enemy fire res and +15% coid dmg. BTW how does nova work out in place of orb, or does orb just do loads more dmg ?
     
  12. pYura

    pYura IncGamers Member

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    No I'm not confusing it. When I said -100% I meant that the resistance goes -100%. (eg double damage=100%) Anyway can you get monster res below -100%?
     
  13. pYura

    pYura IncGamers Member

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    At least its challenging ;)
     
  14. Bladewind

    Bladewind IncGamers Member

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    never denied that :p

    Just that mfing wise it will be hard. :badteeth:
     
  15. MageChick

    MageChick IncGamers Member

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    Sorry, this discussion is kinda all over the place. Let me see what I can do.

    -100% enemy resistance is the cap. Nothing you do can lower a monster more than that. If you have -200% enemy cold reistance from your skills and gear, then half of that will be wasted on a 0% resistant monster. Diablo and Baal both have 50% resistance to cold, so there's some use to getting your -enemy cold resistance up to about -150% (leaveing them at -100%), but past that its only really useful for meph. He's 75% resistant. I don't think pumping your skill that high for only 1 monster is worth it. But there are plenty of people that Meph and not much else.

    Forzen Orb is probably about the only skill that's useful enough to use without synergizing it. Nothing in the Fire or Lightning tree is as independant.

    Hydra is a pretty weak spell all the way around - even synergized. I'm saying you can't use it if you really want to, but it will take a long time to kill things.

    Nova is also a weak spell. It can be useful if fully synergized though. There's even a build based around it, but it will take almost ALL of your skill points to make it usefull. You will also need to get an infinity for either you or your merc and you'll need lots of Fast Cast to make it work (105% preferably).

    If you don't have a real good idea what you're doing, or if this is one of your first chars on D2, then I'd really recommend sticking to the cookie cutter builds; Meteorb or BlizzBaller. They are cookie cutter builds because they work the best out of everything out there. Once you've made a kinda generic sorc, aquired some wealth, and learned more about the mechanics, then by all means start playing around with different things - off the wall builds are fun - but they generally aren't very useful.
     
  16. pYura

    pYura IncGamers Member

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    I am willing to kill Mefi a lot so I will need -175% resistance CM wich is lvl32 so I probably have to max it.

    This not my first D2/bnet/sorc/coldsorc character, its just a build that trys to be as effective as cookie cutter ones but in the way that fits my taste. (As I said I hate the sound of incoming meteor (dont know why) and want to see and not spawn the screen with blizzard.) I think it is a viable combination of skills. I wont kill mefi in 36 secdons only in a minute but who cares realy... I want to play and have fun:prop: hehe
     
  17. melianor

    melianor D3 Wizard Moderator

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    As it is only going to be a backup spell, i see no problem here. Have fun with this build. It will be challenging when it comes to killing cold immunes. A good challenge never hurts.

    I disagree with only one point. You have an advantage with the stronger Hydra. You suddenly have Fireball as a spamming spell and that is a huge advantage! Its not so much about the added Hydra damage, but about getting another spell that is spammable and does good damage. I enjoyed playing the Hydra/Orb build form which i showed you the skill placement.

    This would make a lot of difference with your killing speed, but aslong as you don't encounter cold immunes, Frozen Orb will undoubtly compensate that.

    This build really looks like a nice Frozen Orb only build with a fun tactical backup spell which is not (for some) hard to aim, like Firewall.

    Have fun with your build :prop
     
  18. pYura

    pYura IncGamers Member

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    I made it to lvl 85 so far :)
    Str: I started saving points until I got a Torch and Wartraveller (+10-20 +10 str) and put some more to be able to use Spirit (156str req. monarch)
    Dex: didnt put any points on it. Didnt regret it.
    Vita: 300++ points, now I have 1,2k life wich is pretty good even without energy shield. Well I have maxed res on hell.
    Energy: didnt put points on it and still couldnt find a good eth polearm so no insight yet... I have to drink a lot but isnt a big problem with an upped goldwrap (16potions). If I could get and Insight I could change my Frostburn to Chance Guards...

    I put all my points first maxing cold tree skills and than started putting on hydra/FM.

    Frozen Orb totally owns every skill in nightmare, it clears the screen full of monsters, I like it very much. But in hell with a full party... ehh not many builds stand a fighting chance except hammerdins, javasons and some uber light soso and smithers probably. (didnt see many blizzard sorc, but they are very good against cows) But well if you want to MF its a good bouild. I can kill easly hell Andy, tank Mefi and make Chaose Sanctuary alone. Baal isnt that strong either.

    Why light soso better if you want an uber char? Simple answer: Infinity rune word.

    I asked my friend (smiter) to kill the Ubers becouse I realy wouldnt stand a chance all alone. Those minins all immune to everything and superstrong. I didnt die in Ubertrist so I could watch the show but realy couldnt help much...

    About Hydra: and again it kills cold immune just as I expected but useless in full party. I like to use it sometimes and its funny to freak ppl out when they want to duel you and face Hydras just out of the towngate :grin:

    I think its a very good build that does not requre any specific (high value item) / high level to be effective for MFing in single games or boosting in nightmare.

    :thumbsup:
     
  19. MageChick

    MageChick IncGamers Member

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    Glad to see you're enjoying it. Thanks for the update too. What did your skills end up looking like?
     
  20. pYura

    pYura IncGamers Member

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    First I maxed Frozen Orb and Cold Mastery, than Ice Bolt and than Hydra. Now I start putting points on Firemastery. I have only one point on warmth/static/shiver armor and one on prereq.

    My gear:
    Shako(pT)(74)
    Oculus(50)
    ViperMagi (up, UM)
    Spirit (monarch)
    FrostBurn
    Nagel(29)
    Nagel(30)
    Goldwrap(up)(30)
    Wartraveller(38)
    oh an a nice rare amu that gives res and 2 cold ckills.
    On swith: Gull and Rhyme.
    Thats pretty nice MF gear with maxed resists and a lot of FCR.


    Now I'm planning to make a PvP "singer" barb :laugh: Kill with a shout? Now thats unusual :DD
     

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