On the rights of unwilling fathers:

Garbad_the_Weak

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

again, i think the most fair solution would be the state being that someone who pays up in these ... freak cases, or the state fully taking care, even
i'm sure they could afford all the unfairly created children, it's not like many women are running around with them buckets and them cows...
now which child would like to live with a mother of whom he knows he was born because of spite or cheating a man of his semen or something weird...

here are some arguments against state care though, because i still don't like this solution, even though it's the fairest:

-which kid likes to be an orphan?
-if you give him to care-parents: which kid likes to grow up away from his real family?
-if you tell him his care-parents are his real family: which kid likes to have been lied to 18 years of his life?


in conclusion: to all women: only milk willing cows!
to all men: don't force your milk in other people's buckets! (you know, the r... word)
In theory at least, the US government is more like a coop to build roads and protect its borders and not a welfare state (in the original, non-pejorative sense of the term). This means that the state should stay out of the picture. I realize that isn't even close to reality, but it does shape the way the law works. The state won't assume responsibility for a child if there is any imaginable pretense to stick it on someone else.



 

HegemonKhan

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

i have NOT read any posts of other poeple yet, but it doesn't matter since this post is MY VIEW on it:

if u (BOTH MALE AND FEMALE) have/make/create/choose to have/choose to take care of (loving sex or rape. natural, with a male, or un-natural, without a male, or adoption/foster care) a child, u ARE responsible for it, until it reaches the legal age where legally your responibility ends (for example: it varies, but in general, it's age 18 in the U.S.).

the responsibility is (well should be, if i had the power, that is) always split. of course if a person violates their responsibility than they should receive just punishment. it should be 50/50 normally though. if a divorce happens, that person is still responsible, since they made the kid or choose to take care of it, which is final even if u divorce and no longer want to take care of kid, you're still responsible. if a divorce (for good reasons. the other person is cuasing problems and u want to get away from him/her) happens and a re-marriage occurs, than the divorcer should only pay/responsiblity 25% and the divorced should pay/responsilbe 50% and the new person of the divorcer should pay/responsible 25%. if a divorce (for bad reasons. the person wants/hopes to get out of his responsibility) happens, than the divorcer should pay/responsible for 50% and the divorced should pay/responsible for 25% and new person of the divorced should pay/responsible for 25%.
 

Tanooki

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

Woah there Chester. I'm not sure I'm going to be able to follow all of that.

So what happens if both people remarry and then they all divorce, and everyone remarries? Do the original spouses each have 25% and everyone else has 12.5%?
 

HegemonKhan

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

if u are referring to me...my real name may not be HK, but NOR is it chester...V.V..ugly name!!!!! no offense...to people named chester...

ONLY those involved with the child/children in question, of course...

the new people who had nothing to do with the responsibility of the child/children in question have no obligation to be responsible and support a child/children they have nothing to do with.

of course if those new people ahve a child, they are repsonsible for THAT child, but not the other one that they had nothing to do with since they weren't a part of that old union.
 
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AeroJonesy

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

I'd love to see someone try a defense of fraud. That is, they only consented to the act because there was an implied representation that it would not lead to pregnancy (e.g., oral sex).
 

Amra

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

And as Dondrei says, the support is for the child, not the mother. Hence the course of events leading to the child is often somewhat irrelevant.
However, many times the mother will spend the money (in part or all) on herself and not the child. Rarely have I heard of cases where there is oversight to guarantee the child is being well taken care of with the bulk of the money. Hey, mommy needs new shoes and ear rings too!

I have often thought a % of the money should go to long term things like a college fund but I don't think that is usually the case. Although I could be wrong.



 

Halifax Donair

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

if a woman chooses to have the baby she should live with the consequences of her choice. that is the consequence of the right to choose. to be fair, the man should have to make his decision within 30 days of being informed of the pregnancy.
 

HegemonKhan

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

if u choose to have sex, you choosen to have a baby, and are responsible. if u don't want that responsiblity than u don't have sex.

sex makes babies. u wanna have sex, the babies and responsiblity of being a parent is the cost. is sex worth it or not?

it irks me, that so few people are responsible. sex isn't some "recreational and fun game". you're making life and the well-being of life is a SERIOUS matter, criminal in fact.
 

lAmebAdger

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

well, respond to the napkin problem that was stated before your first post then

a man jacks off in the toilet and a woman secretly fishes out the napkin from the toilet and uses it to get a baby...

the OP already moved up the front lines...
 

HegemonKhan

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

well, respond to the napkin problem that was stated before your first post then

a man jacks off in the toilet and a woman secretly fishes out the napkin from the toilet and uses it to get a baby...

the OP already moved up the front lines...
in that case, the female is entirely responsible for the creation of the baby, and should have the full burden of being responsible, and if she doesn't carry out that responsibility for the child than punish her instead.

this is pretty much the same situation of rape in terms of who is responsible for the child and/or punished. one wanted sex/making a baby and the other didn't.

if a male (usually it's the male, but actually not always) rapes a female. HE is entirely responsible for the baby and if he doesn't carry out that responsilbity, than punish him. this is entirely separate from the criminal trial for his crime of rape. the same is true if a female raped a male...or using your napkin example or a sperm bank.


 

Johnny

Banned
Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

in that case, the female is entirely responsible for the creation of the baby, and should have the full burden of being responsible, and if she doesn't carry out that responsibility for the child than punish her instead.
Except that she going to claim they had sex and he wont be able to prove otherwise.



 

HegemonKhan

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

too true,

and also, they will believe her as well..... 100% SEXISM

i love this quote some one had from this ancient roman guy:

(i don't have it at the moment and may not be able to find it again, so i'ma roughly paraphrase the gist? or ghist? of it)

pliny (the ancient roman guy being quoted by some one else who found/new of this quote by pliny):

"the day u give a woman equality, is the day u become a slave." -pliny

how true !!!!, even-especially in 2009 AD, and he was a roman around some time before AD in BC to the fall of roman empire around finally ~400-500 AD

i'm not totally sexist... treating a male as a slave is no different as males having treated females as slaves for most of human history. treating a male as a slave isn't exactly equality and fairness, just as males having throughout most of human history treated females as slaves, not equality and fairness, as well.
 

lAmebAdger

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

yep, and it's not about males and females, it's about innocent people getting dominated

say a female has a lot of spite against males because of past experience as a slave... she can't just take it out on some random guy she shares the neighbourhood with...


to the rape question: the unfair thing is 1. if the female didn't want to have a baby, but then got fertilized, she'll face the abortion dilemma, or if she chooses to have the child anyway, she can't just push all of the care to the man, because she's a mother!
2. if the male got "raped", then things would still be unfair because if he refuses to care for the child, the child will be fatherless...

either way: only bad things can come from bad things
 

HegemonKhan

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

abortion is murdering a baby. this has nothing to do with rape. last time i checked, the baby in the female's womb didn't violate/rape the "female", why is the baby allowed/getting capitol punishment/death ? if anyone is getting killed/capitol punishment, shouldn't it be the raper, NOT the innocent baby ?

murder is NOT acceptible, and the murder of a baby is the most heinous of all types of murders' and it's victims. abortion is killing a baby for whom (the baby) certainly has commited no crime punishable by death and nor has been given the legal right to a court of law and than found guilty of a crime punishable by death, in other words, abortion is infanticide, the most heinous of all types of murders and its victims

a raped female is not responsible and has NO legal obligation of responsibility in terms of the rape (of course many females hopefully find it difficult to not be responsible, i wish it be jsut as many males who had a strong sense of purpose to "father" as many females have to "mother"). hopefully either some family or person will foster/adopt the baby or either the mother and/or father will care for the baby, or some kinda government program-people or religious group-people will. if no one will take responsibility for the baby and it dies, than the same should happen to the rapist, he (or she, if it's the female who's the rapist) should be executed.

also for true justice, EVERYONE who didn't "step up" and take responsibility and care for the baby, aka keep it alive, should ALL BE PUNISHED. there's no excuss for NO one "stepping up" and allowing for the baby to die. even the raped mother (and of course the raper father) IS responsible in this regard and should be punished as well. letting a baby die IS *IN*-excusable.
 
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PFSS

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

if a woman chooses to have the baby she should live with the consequences of her choice. that is the consequence of the right to choose. to be fair, the man should have to make his decision within 30 days of being informed of the pregnancy.
Children are to be held responsible for the choices of their parents?

However, many times the mother will spend the money (in part or all) on herself and not the child. Rarely have I heard of cases where there is oversight to guarantee the child is being well taken care of with the bulk of the money. Hey, mommy needs new shoes and ear rings too!
I agree that some women mis-use some/all of the money - there are ****ty people everywhere. But this does not change the fact that the money is intended to be for the child, hence the mothers/fathers actions are (often) irrelevant. Incidentally - which would you guess to be a bigger issue, men not paying child support or women who abuse child support money.

As for the college funds etc - I'd imagine for many people the legal costs in negotiating such contracts would start to outweigh the benefits.

Thing about deadbeats - there are a number of much more valid issues surrounding child support that are sadly overshadowed by a group of men who object to feeding their children.

AeroJonesy said:
I'd love to see someone try a defense of fraud. That is, they only consented to the act because there was an implied representation that it would not lead to pregnancy (e.g., oral sex).
A few guys have tried similar - they provided sperm to lesbian friends on the agreement that the women would raise the children and have later been successfully sued for child support when the woman's relationship broke down and the non-biological mother didn't want to support the kid anymore.


 

HegemonKhan

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

A few guys have tried similar - they provided sperm to lesbian friends on the agreement that the women would raise the children and have later been successfully sued for child support when the woman's relationship broke down and the non-biological mother didn't want to support the kid anymore. -PFSS

"A few guys have tried similar - they provided sperm to lesbian friends.." -PFSS

how is this any different than if the man...gave the sperm to the female the "natural-biological way" ("entwined-physically bonded-mated")....????

frankly, why in the world would u do this...????

i'd much rather have-enjoy-engage in the sex, if the female is going to "be provided by me with my sperm".

if u don't want to be responsible for a child don't provide the sperm. and my goodness...if you're going to provide sperm at least get the enjoyment of sex out of it,......geeeez, i'm embarrased at how stupid some males can be!!!!

obviously if a female get's your sperm against your will/consent, she has commited a crime and u are the victim and in NO way responsible for her crime and criminal actions. UNLESS no one takes care of the baby and it dies, than u are responsible along with EVERYONE ELSE for the baby's death.
 

lAmebAdger

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

abortion is murdering a baby. this has nothing to do with rape.
that's what they say, but has it had consequences? in some countries evidently not... that's why this issue is still a dilemma

if anyone is getting killed/capitol punishment, shouldn't it be the raper, NOT the innocent baby ?
getting killed for rape will result in no child support, and we don't want that

murder is NOT acceptible, and the murder of a baby is the most heinous of all types of murders' and it's victims.
in some countries it evidently is, not that i approve of it... that's why this issue is still a dilemma

abortion is infanticide, the most heinous of all types of murders and its victims
nope, genocide is the most heinous of all types of murders and its victims

a raped female is not responsible and has NO legal obligation of responsibility in terms of the rape (of course many females hopefully find it difficult to not be responsible, i wish it be jsut as many males who had a strong sense of purpose to "father" as many females have to "mother")
a mother is responsible for her child, legal or not! (just like every father should find it in his heart to overlook the unfairness done to him and be there for the child)

hopefully either some family or person will foster/adopt the baby or either the mother and/or father will care for the baby, or some kinda government program-people or religious group-people will. if no one will take responsibility for the baby and it dies, than the same should happen to the rapist, he (or she, if it's the female who's the rapist) should be executed.
1. a democratic state can never allow any baby to die because of uncaredforness
2. having to grow up away from your real family is one of the unfairnesses i wouldn't do to a child
3. the execution of a rapist is not dependant on the life of a child, it is dependant on what he has done... the child should be kept alive at all costs and the rapist has to give child support

there's no excuss for NO one "stepping up" and allowing for the baby to die.
except they're all retarded (nuts) and therefore the unfortunate baby has to be taken away from all those "responsible" people and will be an orphan under the state for 18 years and this is just one of the injustices of the world...
(course u don't find many places in which mentally disabled people inseminate themselves with the sperm of others)
#



also, what PFSS meant was: a lesbian couple can't have natural children, but they want children
therefore, they beg a man to provide sperm and agree to fully care, then they turn out to be jerks and sue the man


 
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HegemonKhan

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

that's what they say, but has it had consequences? in some countries evidently not... that's why this issue is still a dilemma



getting killed for rape will result in no child support, and we don't want that



in some countries it evidently is, not that i approve of it... that's why this issue is still a dilemma



nope, genocide is the most heinous of all types of murders and its victims



a mother is responsible for her child, legal or not! (just like every father should find it in his heart to overlook the unfairness done to him and be there for the child)



1. a democratic state can never allow any baby to die because of uncaredforness
2. having to grow up away from your real family is one of the unfairnesses i wouldn't do to a child
3. the execution of a rapist is not dependant on the life of a child, it is dependant on what he has done... the child should be kept alive at all costs and the rapist has to give child support



except they're all retarded (nuts) and therefore the unfortunate baby has to be taken away from all those "responsible" people and will be an orphan under the state for 18 years and this is just one of the injustices of the world...
#



also, what PFSS meant was: a lesbian couple can't have natural children, but they want children
therefore, they beg a man to provide sperm and agree to fully care, then they turn out to be jerks and sue the man
1. unjustly killing (murder) anyone causes great concern for me, especially when its a baby. THERE SHOULD BE HUGE CONSEQUENCES. THIS IS NOT ACCEPTIBLE !

2. that's a good point, IF u CAN get/take support/money from the rapist.

3. concurs. not much to say....

4. genocide is too broad. specifically, infanticide is the worst type of genocide/murder.

5. that's true biologically, though legally, who'ever is the victim of UNwanted sex/pregnancy/baby, isn't legally responsible for the crime. but anyways, the real point i wanted to include, A FATHER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS CHILD TOO.

mother mother mother....a FATHER is JUST AS IMPORTANT as any mother is for a baby-child !!!!!! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR (the ONLY exception is when a baby needs/can only ahve milk and there's no source of milk (animals') available, than and only than is a mother more important than a father, for obvious reasons...(though, freakily some human males have started to produce milk, in such extreme situations. which shouldn't be too surprising, humans can actually do pretty amazing things when in extreme life and death situations for themselves or others they care about.
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this is off-subject, but for what it's worth, the world record bench press was not done in some gym at i don't know what it is ...maybe 500-700 lbs ?

the real world record was possible this guy who was mountain climbing, and the chunk of cliff he was on gave away and he and that like over 1,400 lbs chunk of cliff rock fell to a downward sloped ledge below. fortunately-luckily, the 1,400 lbs chunk of cliff rock only fell on his legs, crushing them and pinning him to the ledge. unfortunately, he was still VERY high up, and being own the down sloping ledge....he trapped under the chunk of rock and was sliding off the ledge to a fall of like who knows how high, though definately well high enough to kill him. amazingly, this skinny man (certainly not a weight lifter) literally was able to reverse-incline bench the ~1,400 chunk of rock (which is well above the world record bench press in a gym by huge weight-lifters), up off his body, over his head, and push the rock out over the ledge-cliff in time before he slid off the ledge to his death as well !!!!

as to the science of how he just broke the world record for bench pressing:

being an emergency, his brain commanded every single muscle fiber in his entire arms to activate and fire, this caused the explosive force that was able to do the impossible and bench the 1,400 lbs chunk of rock. instead of dying, this emergency ability, merely torn his arms to shreds due to the force that was generated from his brain activating his entire mucles fibers of his entire arms, obviously this is a one time thing, that weight lifters can't use over and over again...it completely tears-destroys your arms, but that's a lot better than falling however far to a greusome and completely fatal "splat" below.
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6 (your #1) . NO HUMAN STATE should EVER let a baby die, especially from irresponsibility.

7 (your #2) . parents/love/caring-ness have NOTHING to do with biology-genes. a parent is some one who cares for a child. biological or not, this has NO bearing on what a real-true parent is. no person is OWNED, including babies. if you don't care for a baby-child u are NOT a parent of that baby-child, regardless if it was your genes that created the baby-child. this ownership mentality must cease. human life, and a baby IS HUMAN LIFE, is NOT property that u own or in the case of abortion, destroy (murder).

8 (your #3) . equal punishment to equal crime. the legal standard of justice. if the baby is murdered/dies by or because of u, u die/executed. pretty simple.

9. concurs. not much more to say/add.

10. it's still the man's fault and thus responsbility. he DID decide to give them his sperm (non-sexually...again...some males' stupidity really embarrases me), even if it was foolish and stupid. don't get me wrong, i also feel that, he could argue deceit, deception, betrayal, fraud, framed, etc.. by the lesbian girls and in terms of justice that should have bearing on his level of responsibility of care/support/money. maybe even being completely a victim since what the lesbians did was pretty much or is a crime and he's the victim and thus not responsible/guilty at all. it's a tough call if he should have any responsibility or not, for me anyways.


 
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lAmebAdger

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

sorry if i'm not fluent in forum lingo, but what is qqqq?:dontknow:
 
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