On the rights of unwilling fathers:

[PlagueBearer]

On the rights of unwilling fathers:

Okay, so here's my question: at what point is a man required to care for a child to whom he is genetically a parent?

Most people (and courts) agree that when a man has intercourse with a woman and a child results, the man bears responsibility for the well-being of the child, often in the form of child-support payments to the mother.

Lets say, however, that the man used a condom, and it functioned properly, but the woman then retrieved the semen from the condom to impregnate herself. What is the father's responsibility?

Another step back: suppose the sexual activity was one in which pregnancy is not possible: oral sex for example. If the woman later uses the semen to impregnate herself, what does the man owe her and the child?

 

[Tanooki]

Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

I personally believe that anytime you whip it out, you're responsible for the consequences.

It's like if you're part of a robbery, and one of the guys suddenly pulls a gun and kills someone. Now you're guilty of felony murder even though the shooting was done by someone else.

 

[PlagueBearer]

Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

I personally believe that anytime you whip it out, you're responsible for the consequences.

It's like if you're part of a robbery, and one of the guys suddenly pulls a gun and kills someone. Now you're guilty of felony murder even though the shooting was done by someone else.

So lets say a man masturbates into a napkin and then a woman uses it to impregnate herself: child support check?

Where's the line?

 

[Dondrei]

Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

You're thinking about this all wrong, it's not about the woman somehow getting something out of the man, it's about the entitlements of the child.

In any case, good luck convincing a court that the child resulted from a napkin, or that you only ever had oral sex with her. And the one about the condom working... how do you expect to prove that? So it's irrelevant.

 

[PFSS]

Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

So lets say a man masturbates into a napkin and then a woman uses it to impregnate herself: child support check?

Where's the line?

What % of child support cases are you talking about here?

Also - I'm pretty sure that this is a Civil issue, so even if you allowed such objections the mother would only have to convince a court on the balance of probabilities that the child resulted from sex.

And as Dondrei says, the support is for the child, not the mother. Hence the course of events leading to the child is often somewhat irrelevant.

 

[stillman]

Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

There's a book called Sex, Crimes, and Misdemeanours by James Morton. It describes these sorts of situations and many others throughout history using real examples. Basically, the book shows how the Justice system has many loop holes, flaws, inadequacies, and unfairlness to groups like: men, homosexuals, single parents, people who are divorced, and on and on.

The point is, no matter what, you're going to find silliness, unfairness, and things that make no sense at all when it comes to the courts dealing with anything to do with sex, parenting or matrimony.

Therefore, this thread is just asking for it. This will become a troll's nest of blazing opinions and people crying foul of other people's country laws.

 

[lAmebAdger]

Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

unless we put a cork on it, right? totally agree with you

on topic (lolz!): i think if a man is forced to impregnate a woman (the woman forces the semen out of him or steals it from him (boris becker!, poor guy) ) or if the woman seduces the man to have safe sex and they shake hands on the woman not impregnating herself with the leftovers, and the woman does it anyway
if any of that happens, then i say: the child needs to be taken away from her mother a calculated optimum of time after it is born, and cared for by the state until the age of 18, unless the father turns around and states that the woman taking care of his genetic child (half of it was his stolen property) is ok with him even if he has to support it (hopefully also finding it in his heart to marry the woman and give the child a normal childhood)

 

[Johnny]

Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

Lets say, however, that the man used a condom, and it functioned properly, but the woman then retrieved the semen from the condom to impregnate herself. What is the father's responsibility?

Happens all the time between rich men and gold digging women. He still gets to pay up though.

 

[krischan]

Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

Lets say, however, that the man used a condom, and it functioned properly, but the woman then retrieved the semen from the condom to impregnate herself. What is the father's responsibility?

That's irrelevant. It's not a matter of whose fault it is or if you have been cheated. Caring for your children is both a right and a duty you cannot evade (at least it's said like that in the German constitution). You cannot let the child suffer from what the mother did.

It's not just a cost factor or a burden and if you are the biological father, you will have to care for it, by investing time or by paying the costs (both would be the best and IMO that's your moral duty), just as the child will have to care for you when you are old and need help and you cannot pay the bills for your care.

As long as the child needs a mother all the time, you will have to pay for her as well, but when the child is old enough to go to a kindergarten or school, the mother herself is expected earn her own money again. It can as well be the other way around, i.e. you raise the child and the mother pays the bills, but in most cases the mother wants the baby (it's a hormone thing) and she has breasts to give it the best food available. It needs a rather bad mother to get a court decision to take her baby away from her, e.g. if she's drug-addicted, severely crippled (wheelchair is probably not enough of a justification), insane, criminal or beats her children all the time.

We had a case here where a prostitute got a child from one of her customers. The court decided that he has to pay for the child.

Another step back: suppose the sexual activity was one in which pregnancy is not possible: oral sex for example. If the woman later uses the semen to impregnate herself, what does the man owe her and the child?

It's said that exactly that has happened to Boris Becker, the yellow press here was full of it :azn:. The child is a couple of years old now and you just have to look at it for a second to notice that it's undeniably his daughter.

 

[lAmebAdger]

Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

It's said that exactly that has happened to Boris Becker, the yellow press here was full of it :azn:. The child is a couple of years old now and you just have to look at it for a second to notice that it's undeniably his daughter.

oh, i always thought she robbed him of his sperm with force or something :/

i guess part of what lead to the situation was willing, then...

 

[krischan]

Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

I doubt it works with force, it's different from milking a cow :whistling:

 

[stillman]

Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

Is it really that much different from milking a cow though?

 

[krischan]

Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

Yes, at least for me.

 

[Dondrei]

Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

Me too. Because you need a way bigger bucket.

 

[lAmebAdger]

Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

well looky here!

if it isn't mature people talking about mature things!

 

[krischan]

Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

What are these mature things ? We are just talking about milking cows, right ? Right ?

 

[Johnny]

Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

Yes, at least for me.

What about the way they milk bulls? With the electric rod in the butt and all.

 

[Garbad_the_Weak]

Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

Okay, so here's my question: at what point is a man required to care for a child to whom he is genetically a parent?

Most people (and courts) agree that when a man has intercourse with a woman and a child results, the man bears responsibility for the well-being of the child, often in the form of child-support payments to the mother.

Lets say, however, that the man used a condom, and it functioned properly, but the woman then retrieved the semen from the condom to impregnate herself. What is the father's responsibility?

Another step back: suppose the sexual activity was one in which pregnancy is not possible: oral sex for example. If the woman later uses the semen to impregnate herself, what does the man owe her and the child?

Both have happened. I studied a case where a woman sucked some guy off, stored the semen in the fridge for a few weeks/months, then impregnated herself out of spite..........and the guy still had to pay. Not only that, I remember a case where a guy wasn't even the kids biological parent (he was just around) and was still ordered to pay. In a nutshell, "the best interests of the child" standard tosses fairness to the parent out the window -- its all about finding someone, somehow, to pay for that kid.

Damn breeders. We seriously need to go to every Jr. High in america and offer a wii/ipod/$250 in cash to anyone willing to get sterilized. Let them sign the paperwork and get cut, then we don't have to worry about teaching safe sex or supporting their crack babies that they want even less than we do.

 

[krischan]

Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

What about the way they milk bulls? With the electric rod in the butt and all.

Why do you ask me ? I haven't tried that and I'm quite sure I never will.

 

[lAmebAdger]

Re: On the rights of unwilling fathers:

its all about finding someone, somehow, to pay for that kid.

again, i think the most fair solution would be the state being that someone who pays up in these ... freak cases, or the state fully taking care, even
i'm sure they could afford all the unfairly created children, it's not like many women are running around with them buckets and them cows...
now which child would like to live with a mother of whom he knows he was born because of spite or cheating a man of his semen or something weird...

here are some arguments against state care though, because i still don't like this solution, even though it's the fairest:

-which kid likes to be an orphan?
-if you give him to care-parents: which kid likes to grow up away from his real family?
-if you tell him his care-parents are his real family: which kid likes to have been lied to 18 years of his life?


in conclusion: to all women: only milk willing cows!
to all men: don't force your milk in other people's buckets! (you know, the r... word)