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Old Diablero vs Diablo 3

Discussion in 'Diablo 2 Community Forum' started by Tarkh, Apr 30, 2015.

  1. Tarkh

    Tarkh IncGamers Member

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    Hi to all!

    Sorry if I missed the appropriate thread (I'm sure there are many of them). I'd want to ask the veteran Diablo 1&2 players.

    I'm an old Diablero, I played Diablo 1 from the days of release, thereafter Hellfire, Diablo 2 and LoD. If I'd compose my personal Top-10 list of favorite games, Diablo 2 LoD was at the top of it, I suppose. Please notice: favorite, not the best 10. There are games that I consider better than those in my Top-10, but favorite games are games that are especially precious for me for various reasons, whether it is warm memories of cloudless times of youth or just the games I played most of the time or something else.
    I'm a single-player type of Diablero, and I never tried MP along all of these years (hard to believe but it's true :) ). I'm not a farmer/Meph-runner type too. I just played it and play until now for my own pleasure, trying some builds, due to Diablo 2 LoD replayability (skill tree mechanics is the most important IMO).

    When Diablo 3 came out, I purchased it and tried. I finished Act 1 with all possible characters and quit. I feel that Blizzard has lost the charm of the prequel. There no more need to try different builds, having the skill tree fully opened once. All that's left for you to do is struggling against random number generator trying to get stuff with better numbers (and what the numbers it is! Thousands. "50000 life regen boost". Oh my...). Moreover, your skills are just multipliers of weapon stats. The most unpleasant thing for me was the evident Blizzard's aspiration to lure the old D2 players. They simply dragged all the old stuff (names, story twists, quests, locations) into D3 to pull your nostalgic strings. So the game was unbearable to me at that moment. Yes, the "loot fever" effect was almost the same, what gave me a few hours of clicking killing, but in the end I was turning the PC down feeling just like "so what I spent these hours for?". It wasn't like that in D2.

    So now, after expansion's release, I read much about the improving of D3. Auction's gone, new class came, new locations, items and so on. But when the core mechanics stayed the same, can it be the improving?

    So could the veteran old devils that tried it give me some direction? Is now this game worth of its price (quite steep), and more important - of time spent in it? How could it be compared with D2 experience?
    The most welcome are subjective emotional evaluations 'cause I'm familiar more or less with gameplay mechanics.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Archone

    Archone IncGamers Member

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    Hey!

    Im probably more than qualified to give my opinion about this.
    Ive played countless of hours of D2 over the last ~8 years. And about 400 hours of D3, 40-50hours expansion, since release.

    I have the same opinion about D2 vs D3 as you have. They lost something making D3, that wont let me enjoy the game.

    The largest fault was the auction house. And when that was removed, a new problem arised, the abscence of trading.
    You cant gather items to trade later anymore.

    I have friends that never played D2, that plays D3, that keep trying to convert me. They cant understand why I enjoy the older game more, but they do agree with me when it comes to the gamebreaking stuff in D3.
    Its too much about numbers, no trading or community to talk about. And once youve got one of each class, theres no more need to level a character.

    My 4 max lvl characters have been fun to build, but theres no enjoyment making more characters. The best gear is so extremly hard to get, that its not worth trying for someone who has at most 10hours of gametime/week.

    D2 has soul, D3 has not, I didnt play D2 last ladder, but intend to play the next one in about a months time. And I cant possibly get bored of that game. Its the only game I still enjoy after 5000+ hours under my belt.

    While D3 was quite goodlooking, the mechanics destroyed the game for me.
    I can understand why new players would enjoy D3. But not why someone would turn down D2 for that game.


    When D2 servers wont be supported by Blizzard anymore. I probably wont play online again. D3 isnt going to be enough for me, and there is no other game in existence that can replace my beloved D2.



    Sorry for the lengthy reply. But it comes from the heart.

    /Archie
     
  3. Tarkh

    Tarkh IncGamers Member

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    Thanks for your heartful opinion!


    That couldn't be! Are you serious? So, I can't realize what Blizzard guys was thinking of... It's big company, they have time, money and manpower to analyze and to probe the ground before such a big project started. They could just scour the D2 forums around the Internet to get the understanding of what people liked most in D2. It seems they did everything vice versa :)

    Yes, you has expressed it just right. I often think and try to find words to describe where this D2 soul is hidden. For the first glance, it's just yet another hack-n-slash (though one of the founders of this sub-genre), with no many thinking required to play it, to be honest :). Well, no, you'll need thinking :) but most of the time you'll be clicking the hordes of various monsters to death and collecting the things dropped from their corpses. Not the best body to have a soul within...:) It's something elusive for me, maybe it's just the love that developers put into their "child".
     
    Archone likes this.
  4. fmulder

    fmulder Site Contributor

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    D3 / RoS isn't as bad as people say it is. The ability to change skills at any time encourages experimentation, which is something that I never did in D2.

    Bounties and Rifts also provide great variety to the end game, making it highly replayable.
     
  5. Tarkh

    Tarkh IncGamers Member

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    As from my experience (limited though) and from others' experience too - I'd say that "replayability" is not the word you could use talking about D3, just because:

    1) There's NO fun to create more than one character of any class. You have all the skills at your disposal as soon as you have opened the skill tree. You can try any of skill combinations of your chosen class. I remember the times when I had 4-5 chars of each class playing D2, each one with different skills chosen.
    2) NO modding (and never will be)
    3) NO PvP (I guess, never will be too)

    All the three points are the backbone of replayability IMO.

    But now replayability is not a goal for gaming developers. Why should you play your favorite game to death when you should buy the next one instead? Gaming industry became a big business with really big money involved. No one cent must be lost. So we have now the growing trend of making games like Diablo 3 - server based, online-only, donate-oriented (yes, now they have closed the Auction House but they won't return your money you invested in it(if any), won't they?!;)). We are guilty (partially) for it, pirating everything and everywhere (I think there's no one from us who never pirated some software, right?).

    But I don't want to say that D3 is a bad game. Not at all. Moreover, I think it's quite a good game for our times. And I'll say to you more: I'll buy the expansion when I'll have extra money. Just because it's Diablo! Yes, I'm a victim of marketing strategy:). But I know what I should be ready for. And I know what I'll get. And I know that there will never be a game like Diablo 2 anymore.
     
  6. Codoh

    Codoh IncGamers Member

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    Huh, Ill hop in on this train and share my thoughts.

    Oh where to start...

    So a little about the 2 careers so it provides some background.

    I started to play D2 ..i would say a little above 10 years ago, playing only singleplayer only. Im not sure which patch it was but i do remember the bone-prison boots that boosted bonespears damage, which eventually got fixed. This can give you an idea of the timeframe. Was first to reach 93 betwenn my friends that i played with, and to this day Im the only one who returned to D2 periodically.
    D3..well hard to say. I did buy it soon as it came out. I would have to check my chars but at this point i realy dont feel like logging in. :mad:
    So lets start with the bad, which would be D3.
    I dont know where the devs went wrong with this game, and ya'll can guess it and be right about it more or less, I think they forgot to add that ...I would call it 'Thausand step progresson' thing into it. What I mean by that is the step by step, little by little getting closer to YOUR individual goals and aspirations into the game and u can achieve that only by doing several different things paralel of eachother, while you dont burn out, and still have that uniqueness atributed to the final product. In D3 if one looks at 10 individual persons (dedicated players) individual monks (might aswell be any) they are all the same, except the numbers on them are a tiny bit different. Obtaining that gear.In D3 you want gear? you want xp for paragon levels? Sure: GRIND GRIFTS TILL YOUR EYES TURN BLUE. Oh theres hellfire amulets we can farm for...and this brings us to the fetish blizzard displays in their game: RNG. The affixes, the stats, socket, the elemental damage..etc etc..its all RNG RNG RNG. You cant 'target' your farm on anything, its either complete utter shit, or u can use it, untill its just imposibble to get an upgrade anymore, ie. bad RNG. Now they added new sets at the start of this season, making the 'old' sets a memory. It's as if they managing that game as if it we're WoW, where the past expansions dont matter at all, and they keep adding content up untill...level 100? When they removed the materials needed to craft certain weapons, my first reaction was 'you got to be kidding me'. It spiced things up, added variety, made us divert from rifts and focus specifically on a piece of equipment. Now its either it drops or it doesnt. So you burn out, take a 2 month break, and than you try again. IF...
    Okay sorry..it kinda turned into a rant..but hey..a post posted while one is 'burned out' gives birth to such thoughts. But trust me, I could go on. :p

    Now to the good. D2...good old D2...where would I go without you. :rolleyes:
    Just to give a perspective: Im 1 and a half Jah away from my BOTD runeword. I got 2 Wizards, 1 for LK runs, 1 to farm AT, Necro to farm Nihlathak, Pala to farm council, Javazon to run ANYTHING, Bowazon for pits, tons of charms to reroll, runes to cube up, hell I never reached 96 on any chars, I need a proper druid, ..etc. Im spiced up, i got things to do, many many different things and not the same thing for all the different goals one can have.

    Think thats it for now. Got the topic on follow and maybe finish my thought some other time. But that gives you an idea how one can feel about D3. D3 lasts a little while, D2 is persistent.
     
  7. fmulder

    fmulder Site Contributor

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    ^ I see your point about RNG but how is grinding Rifts different from LK runs and the like? I didn't like farming in D2 because the most efficient farming areas tend to have few variety in monster types. At lease in Rifts the monster spawns are more random.
     
  8. Codoh

    Codoh IncGamers Member

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    LK is the best way to get High Runes and only high runes. So the runs have 1 specific purpose. For xp u go Nihlathak or Baal or w/e. In D3 rifts encompass everything. And all classes are built around doing that efficiently as much as possible, as there's nothing else to do.
    Yea the monster variety can be a darling to some. And I see your point. Doing Chaos Sanctuary will throw the same monsters at you over and over again. But all the other aspects of d2 (specifically items) make up for it, atleast for me. In all honestly, the only time when I cared about monstertype was when I tried pushing my solo Greater rifts position higher, which was 46+ (i played completely solo), farmed 41 quite efficiently, did that mostly, and I didnt care about monstertype there. :cool:
     
  9. Tarkh

    Tarkh IncGamers Member

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    As for me, I mentioned before that I'm not a farmer type of player. Honestly I still haven't beaten Hell with all possible classes (don't remember correctly but Assassin is one of them for sure)...:) So I still have some business in D2. Moreover, all my saved chars were annihilated when my hard disk got burnt in scorhing summer 2013.
    So I understand Blizzard's efforts of making endgame stages more variative in D3. Farming stuff just for farming stuff more effectively? What for? Ah, of course - just to farm stuff yet more and more effectively... But in abscence of full-fledged PvP mode - what is the meaning of all of these farm-oriented innovatives? What do I need this another legendary armor for?
    But IMO instead of farming improvements Blizzard should remake level-up and skill progression mechanics. It seems having been made for potential target auditory of 10-12 y.o. Blizzard seems to make everything: they raise stats, they open skills in premade progression, they calculate drop chance on their servers, they save my chars there too... Just like I'm a suckling that could break their marvellous game! :D
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2015
  10. Codoh

    Codoh IncGamers Member

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    Yea you pretty much nailed it. Just go to twitch and check what Streamers are doing. Thats whats expecting you. 'Oh, I've beaten grift 50, cool. Lets try 52. Oh no, I got stomped. Lets get the SAME legendaries but with better numbers and try again.' Thats endgame. And lets not talk about the RNG in rifts. You literaly want the boss with the lowest HP at the end, and the Act I zombies in the whole rift, as they give the best progression. If you don't get that, you cant complete the rift. Sometimes people dont even bother trying to kill the boss as it takes took long without specific shrines.
     
  11. Tarkh

    Tarkh IncGamers Member

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    The decision to tie the damage rate to items (and not only damage rate but everything literally) - that's what makes endless farming the only purpose and the only occupation for player in D3. In D2 there were madcaps that were making walkthroughs with bare fists..:) Because your char grows, your stats do matter, you can cause damage weaponless and you can survive armorless. It's not the case with D3. Without items you are nothing.

    But nonetheless, as I said already, I'll take RoS when my funds allow me. I like to look at the levels design, buildings, decorative elements, I like examine the visual things in isometric games, and in D3 too. It has lost the D2 style but just remember how people were grumbling about how D2 lost the D1 dark visual esthetics - and D2 became a hit! Yes, D3 style is maybe too modern, it wants to please everyone too much, but it has its charm IMO. It abstains from being too cartoony, anime-ish, childish as other fresh Blizzard projects (and not only Blizzard's).
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2015
  12. Codoh

    Codoh IncGamers Member

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    Yea you're right about D3 being in its early stages. D2 didnt become what it is in 2 years. Time will tell, but speaking for myself and myself only, the same thing happened to me twice while playing D3, and thats burning out. Doesnt give me what I want, so I rant about it. Hurray! I'm a consumer!
     
  13. Tarkh

    Tarkh IncGamers Member

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    Well, D3 is not so fresh already :). I've read about second expansion being cooked. We'll see. But I really doubt that D3 can become more it deserves to be - a game for just one serious playthrough, a "one-timer". Maybe, it's doom for game producing nowadays, at least for big projects. It's hard to make good games when your 1000-men staff are 990 marketologists + 10 programmers (and not the best programmers of the world, you know...) :).
    In our days I have much bigger fun playing "games not for everyone" from tiny teams (even one-man made games often): Dominions series and its offshoot Conquest of Elysium, Solium Infernum, Chris Park games (e.g. AI War), brilliant space rogue-like Approaching Infinity and many more. Not saying about free games yet...;)
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2015
  14. Codoh

    Codoh IncGamers Member

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    Its successes and failures can surely be tracked back to marketing and the general gaming industry. Games cant be 'done' anymore as it seems. They requier constant updates and new features, DLCs and expansions, fresh stream of new content as players and the general market atmosphere demands it, and than comes esports and streaming which amplyfies the products exposure even more.
    I had to google those games, never heard of them. :p
     
  15. Interdasting

    Interdasting IncGamers Member

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    It's much more profitable for publishing companies to push games within 1-2 years of development then push out patches for the next few months. The fixes are worked on after the deadline for the game's development has been reached.
    Either way, D3 I feel is already close to D2 in terms of gameplay variety. The only issue for me is the poor quality of difficulty.
     
  16. Tarkh

    Tarkh IncGamers Member

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    By the way, I often read about D3 vs Torchlight 2 comparing. Has anyone something to say about it? Personally I tried only Torchlight 1 when it came out and uninstalled it in 10 minutes. Its overall cartoonish style has pushed me off, I prefer the stone-hard serious and epic approach of Diablo:). Or even the earlier Flagship Studios attempt ;)
     
  17. Codoh

    Codoh IncGamers Member

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    Tried torchlight II a long timeago. I had some horrible stuttering on my laptop so I uninstalled it. I did however leveld a char up to like level 77 or something like that. It was okay...ye the visual aspect is different, the story is meh, idk...cant say much about it.
     
  18. Interdasting

    Interdasting IncGamers Member

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    Torchlight II is essentially the spiritual successor of Diablo II. It's hard to get past it being so visually different than D2, especially endgame and upgrade mechanics compared to D2, but it's still very much worth the purchase to me. Playing Hardcore Veteran or Elite is :eek:
     
  19. Tarkh

    Tarkh IncGamers Member

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    Well, you are amongst the many others who say like this. Maybe, it's worth for me to consider my options about T2.

    And what about beforementioned Hellgate? I found it quite fun, with interesting classes, but never finished due to lack of time and distraction to other games...:) Maybe it deserves to be called "spiritual successor" more than T2? Did T2 make a decent step ahead of Diablo fundamentals? Hellgate seemed to be more innovative and fresh approach to hack'n'slash. Or...?o_O

    And maybe it was Titan Quest what succeeded in "Diablo-formula"?:rolleyes:

    And what about Loki:Heroes of Mythology? Lame but has its pluses, isn't it?
     
  20. Codoh

    Codoh IncGamers Member

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    I can weigh in on Titan Quest. Played it twice. Had to start over the 2nd time as I lost my saves. I think I've saved them this time :confused:.
    Its overall an okay D2 replacer if u want a change. Theres so many class combinations one can choose from that you probably wont go past 10 ever ever ever. :rolleyes: Itemwise i think its cool, there are tons of uniques and sets, but most importantly if u want 'perfect' gear, you'll have to farm some 'rare' gear that barely drops, so if you one of those fanatics, you got your work cut out for you. Appart from that there are these ball looking things that u need to craft that requier materials and lots of cross-dificulty grinding (the game has the classical normal-nightmare-hell difficulty curve, but normals the worst). These give stats and major boosts to your chars. Appart from that I like the theme of the game...good old mythological Greek, its fun. I'll have to reinstall it. Hm..make some caster maybe..:p
     

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