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Okay, I'm pretty convinced of one of two things

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by mysticc, Jun 10, 2012.

  1. FaerieStorm

    FaerieStorm Diabloii.Net Member

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    completely agree.

    About the wizard:
    -Diamond skin is only really viable until hell/early act 1 inferno.
    -when 1 hit breaks you diamond skin and now it's on cooldown you're kind of stuck.
    -teleport and mirror images if you use the illusionist passive will reset if you take a hit of more then 15% of your max hp.
    -Energy armour, magic weapon or familiar become essential.
    -Only venom and arcane hydras are actually useful. (Arcane is better in act 2 for dealing with those wasps then the venom one)
    -Also had to use magic arrow with seeker for those wasps. and I don't really like magic arrow much.
    -Arcane orb is the only big damage spell that doesn't require you to stand still (that has a reasonable cost).
    -Electrocute only does 80% weapon damage, less then your wand.

    for all classes:
    -potions on cool downs ..... 30 seconds?? monk heal is 15....
    -plus movement speed mandatory? really? I miss my run/walk.....

    just some things to think about.

    Since getting to inferno I have not been able to use most of the skills I thought were oil since they are simply not viable...


     
  2. FireIceTalon

    FireIceTalon Diabloii.Net Member

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    Nope, I don't personally play Hardcore, it's not my thing. Nevertheless, it IS the measuring stick on how well the classes should fare in Inferno, because one death and thats it. The utmost care, caution, and skill is required to play under such circumstances (be it melee or ranged), and thus far, melee has fared better than ranged has. It's a fact you cannot deny. And I bet almost all 'world firsts' will be done on melee chars in HC Inferno.

    And there you go making assumptions again that all my chars except the DH are in normal. Wrong again. Barb and Wiz are both in Hell mode, and are having a waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay easier time than DH ever did when I played her in hell. And while Inferno will suck for them as well most likely, I can already tell just through simple char mechanics after playing the first 3 difficulties that Barb and Wiz will have an easier time than my DH did, though anything regarding Inferno is all relative. This is just simple logic here. If my Wiz had an easier time in NM and Hell than my DH did, it stands to tell that Inferno will be a bit easier for my Wiz and Barb as well, though how much easier is the big question. Probably not much easier, but somewhat easier nonetheless, because Barb and Wiz can mitigate incoming damage, DH simply cannot. You have to kill things before you take 2 hits, or you're toast. At least Barb has Revenge and Ignore Pain, etc to help survive a few hits, as long as you have the gear. Wiz, got Force Armor (yes, it was nerfed, but so was SS) DH's passives and defensive skills are trash, nuff said.

    And the reason Dex items are cheaper than Strength items is because Dex items are CRAP. Again, Dex is the DH's main stat and it only gives to damage and dodge....DH's have very great difficulty in getting a good Armor rating and high resistances, because their main stat doesn't contribute to either of these things. Thus, the DH is more item dependent in terms than Barb or Wiz in terms of mitigating incoming damage. How you cannot understand this, I have no clue, but it is really simple. Barb has strength as main stat, which gives them a naturally high armor rating so they can focus more on trying to get resists.....with Wiz, it is the opposite, intelligence gives to resists. DH, on the other hand, has to worry about BOTH of these things more since Dex doesnt contribute to either one. So actually, no, the game economy does NOT agree with you.

    I totally regret making DH my first character, its a completely broken class with too many design flaws, and Blizz needs to go back to the drawing board regarding that issue.

    And you can laugh at me all you want, but like everyone else here, we all know you are getting anal raped in Inferno, so dont sit here and act like you are some uber leet gamer that everyone should bow down to. You aren't. And if you really disagree with me, well, you can come find me once PvP is implemented and Ill be more than happy to smash ya some.


     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2012
  3. FireIceTalon

    FireIceTalon Diabloii.Net Member

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    Not true at all. You can have all the DPS in the world but if everything 1 or 2 shots you, than all that DPS is meaningless. I suppose you could get through Inferno playing this so-called 'ultra glass cannon' style, but it certainly isn't any fun, and most people play video games to have fun last I checked.


     
  4. mysticc

    mysticc Diabloii.Net Member

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    Who cares about fun. It works not just for me, but tons of players. I am not talking about fun. My whole post was about how much easier it is to do compared to the wizard...


     
  5. FireIceTalon

    FireIceTalon Diabloii.Net Member

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    I can easily find just as many players who would say Wiz is easier. Quit using your anecdotes to try and support your weak arguments. Wiz has better passives and defensive skills than DH, this isn't my opinion, it is fact. Slow Time > Caltrops, Force Armor > SS (much lower resource cost on FA and it last waaay longer, even if it doesnt grant you total invincibility for 1 second), Hydra > Sentry, and almost all the Wiz's passives are utterly superior. I never change the passives on my DH, while I change them constantly on my Wiz because there is more to choose from - more evidence that Wiz is a better designed class than DH is. But forget Wiz vs. DH...Barb > both of them.

    And if you dont like playing video games to have fun, well, maybe go do some chores then, or get your teeth pulled or something?


     
  6. mysticc

    mysticc Diabloii.Net Member

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    Wizard is fine if you have a barbarian for a tank. It is actually quite powerful.

    The problem with wizard, really, is that most of the best dps skills are anti-kiting friendly. It just so happens the only way to play the wizard right now - barring incredible gear - is to kite like crazy and run around the same column 10 times until things actually die. Give the demon hunter the same gear or less (and far less I might add), and it's just a joke.

    In inferno, I am sometimes half-asleep and I am still breezing through the content.

    I can try to play 100% perfect as wizard and I can't even get anywhere near 5 stacks of valor, and she has tons better gear than my demon hunter.

    There is a huge imbalance.

    Suggestion: Get out of nightmare and level a DH and Wizard to 60. Play inferno. Then come back to this thread.

    EDIT: I am not saying DH is so broken that you don't die, or anything like that. I do die. But at least I have a fighting chance. On act 2, I don't have a prayer with my wizard, and she has all act 1-2 drops with 3-4 excellent mods (Vit, Int, @res, Armor, etc.)


     
  7. Accaris

    Accaris Diabloii.Net Member

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    Got my Wizard to 60 today, and got to Act 2 Inferno. Killed 14 elite and champion packs without dying. I didn't die once, until I hit a serpent pack (invisibility got me.) Got to Magda and that's where I've stopped for the night (obviously killing her with 5 stacks.) Is it me or did they nerf reflect damage? Everyone talks about how horrible it is for Wizards, but it didn't even scratch me. (1200 life-per-second regen I guess.)

    My Barbarian--who had 1000 resist all and 10 million gold worth of gear--could take on maybe 10% of elite packs without dying. I'd say more than half, he'd need to skip entirely.

    So I can't comment on the comparison between Wizard and Demon Hunter. All I can say is it feels like a totally different game when I'm playing my Wiz, compared to my Barb. It's a joke. Melee is incredibly gimped in this game unless you can drop ~10M on a 900 DPS, +800 life-on-hit weapon (which I didn't have.)
     
  8. FireIceTalon

    FireIceTalon Diabloii.Net Member

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    Um, my DH is 60 and playing in Inferno, Wiz is 54 in Hell still but having a far easier time than my DH ever did there. So yea, I'm long out of nightmare.


     
  9. Haywire

    Haywire Diabloii.Net Member

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    Jeez, I just dropped in for some tips and this!
     
  10. Catchafire

    Catchafire Diabloii.Net Member

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    Seriously, this is the point that I agree with. It is nice for DH/Wiz to have these "arguments" about which character is better in Inferno. The real problem is on the front lines with melee characters that dont stand a chance like the Monk/Barb. No one even farts at the WD.


     
  11. mysticc

    mysticc Diabloii.Net Member

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    Hell is not inferno. Gear makes a difference. you are probably using better gear on your newer character (wizard) since it is cheaper now than it probably was when you were the DH. That explains it perfectly.


     
  12. FireIceTalon

    FireIceTalon Diabloii.Net Member

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    I don't remember what gear my DH had back when I was playing hell mode with it. I just know it was much harder than than it is with either my Wiz or Barb, both of which are destroying everything in their path. Hell isnt Inferno, but the issue of Wiz vs. DH has more to do with class design than game difficulty. I am pretty sure that both my Barb and Wiz will handle Act 1 Inferno better than my DH did, who is now struggling in Act 2 Inferno, by the time they are there. Inferno sux for every class really, and needs to be nerfed in a number of ways, but that is a different matter altogether. It is just simple logic that if I am struggling in hell less with my Wiz or Barb, I will most likely struggle less with them in Inferno as well in comparison to my DH. Without taking game difficulty into account, DH is fundamentally just a poorly designed and rushed class that needs a lot of re-tuning. Wiz is not without its problems either, but it is a more sound class in terms of skill balance and gear dependency. Archer classes have traditionally been my fav to play in most RPG's, but not in D3.
     
  13. mysticc

    mysticc Diabloii.Net Member

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    It was gear. Trust me.

    Stuff is more plentiful now, and you probably don't remember how bad the gear was days/weeks ago when you leveled up the DH.

    Play a DH again from scratch and use the same caliber items you gave the wizard. You will then see the difference.

    I am telling you, the DH is better. How do I know? Because I have both @ 60, and my wizard has MILLIONS of gold spent on her and she still sucks. The gear equivalence is not the same - the DH is far cheaper. She is wearing crappy gear. I have less than 100 to all resists, and 2000 armor. I have about 33k life, which is 17k-22k life less than my wizard too. My wizard is blowing her away in stats.

    Regardless, the DH performs better. This tells the whole story.
     
  14. TarnishedHope

    TarnishedHope Diabloii.Net Member

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    What.

    300-400k into my Wizard and about two day into Inferno, I am now in Act 3 Inferno, with zero problem progressing and farming fairly well.

    My Barbarian spent about 14-15 million to crawl to Act 3 Inferno.

    What the hell are you talking about?

    You have 50k+ life as a Wizard? You're playing it wrong, bro.

    First, wall of text.

    Second, I'm sure you struggling less in Hell as Wizard or Barbarian reflects how you will do in Inferno. I steamrolled Hell mode with Barbarian, then got a big reality check in Act 2 Inferno.

    But you, being that special snowflake, will maintain the consistency.

    You have no idea what you are talking about. Get your Barbarian or Wizard to Inferno, try it, and start talking about class balance. By the way, Hell/Inferno Act 1 are laughably easy for DH. My monk friend who rerolled DH often muses about how much easier the game is now in comparison.

    Frankly, if you are failing Inferno as either DH or Wizard, the problem is you. Not the class.



     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2012
  15. Sevenfold

    Sevenfold Diabloii.Net Member

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    You make it sound like there's a lot more going on as a Demon Hunter. The playstyle is basically the same, just replace Venom Hydra with Nether Tentacles and Blizzard with Caltrops. In either case if something catches you and hits you you're going to die.

    In any case, whether the DH or Wizard is superior relative to the other is irrelevant. Neither are underpowered by any means and they are both still significantly ahead of the other classes.


     
  16. TarnishedHope

    TarnishedHope Diabloii.Net Member

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    Lol. Went back and found your response to my other post.

    I will answer you in the order I underline and bolded.

    1) Please do not compare yourself to Hardcore players. While you have the leisure of dying 500 times without suffering real consequences, Hardcore players don't. Softcore and hardcore balance are, essentially, two entirely different things. If you are expecting to not die in Softcore, then, well, maybe build and play a little better?

    2) First of all, you aren't doing too hot in Inferno as DH, so you have little room to claim understanding to class mechanic. Second of all, are you seriously equating Hell to Inferno difficulty? Frankly, every single class can faceroll through Hell if the players aren't horrible. The damage scale/health is ridiculously different between Hell and Inferno. This is just so fundamentally wrong that I'm inclined to believe you're trolling.

    As I've always said, if you are so upset about how underpowered Demon Hunter is, shut up and reroll. I eagerly await your phenomenal success as Wizard & Barbarian.

    3) Dex items are crap. Okay. Now we know why you fail as a Demon Hunter. :thumbup: If you think INT/STR actually make a noticeable difference in survival, as Wizard or Barbarian, you are talking out of your behind.

    4) Aw, really? I'm getting anal raped in Inferno? Because, you know, while I have Act 2 on farm, you are crying on DH about how hard Act 1 Inferno is. :spy:

    At no point am I claiming I'm some elite gamer. That, frankly, is the point. If even I can do it, then everybody can. If you can't, then you are an isolated case.

    5) Smash me some? :scratchchin: Judging by your apparently lack of understanding to class mechanic and, frankly, general inability to actually play the game, I would say you would fail miserably at that.

    I will then end this post with a funny tidbit I found in your previous posts.

    :rolf:

    You probably don't even know what's wrong with that statement there.



     
  17. Daemonaz

    Daemonaz Diabloii.Net Member

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    You are so very very very wrong. Melee is insane. The gear we need is beyond mental to even survive act II, and I'm not even going to mention act III. Wizards have it much easier than any melee class in this game. Try playing a Monk or Barb in act 2 and tell me how it goes.



     
  18. Pash

    Pash Diabloii.Net Member

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    Wouldn't it create a more reputable debate if people didn't start getting abusive at every turn? Such a situation normally suggests that this information will be dismissed, but Ill give it a go anyway:-

    Things I have noticed on my first Act1 Inferno play through on my only level 60 DH. Things of note -

    - I have okish gear (25kdps, 27k hp but very low resistances), I roll with this build http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#fRXhVY!aeY!bcZbbc. Opted for TA over SS because I seem to die more without it.
    - I have tried some of the act1 inferno as solo but mostly with my bro playing a really def barb. We found that creating choke points and me standing at the back as the proverbial glass cannon firing my NT through waves of mobs to be most effective. Of course, its not always possible or easy to create said choke points but we found the skill was trying to make one up and communicating how to do so.
    - I dont have a high level WD or Wizard although I have played both classes at the lower levels. As such I am not really ok with commenting on any def or off abilities they may have but I feel that commenting on their primary attribute should be ok (which is Int).

    Observations that I note about playing DH at level 60 in inferno Act 1:-

    - It's fun. Yup, call me crazy and yes I died lots but I did enjoy my act1 play through in inferno.
    - As I mentioned the synergy with playing with a def barb and creating choke points on different map locations works really well.
    - NT is great, especially on Larger hit boxed mobs. I don't want to debate if this skill rune should be looked at, I personally would love to see some proper maths on this ability but in my eyes as a slow moving projectile as it is it does require situational awareness or creating said choke points on the maps. Basically, the skill is in when to use the skill.
    - Smoke screen is good (especially with TA), it allows for some movement in situations where you need it. With prep you have at least 8 screens available on pull with disc at full.
    - Reflect dmg and mortar affixes really get me grumpy at the moment, I have to time any bursts on reflect dmg around my health pots or prep with life back runes. I guess this is largely to do with my low resistances and I am going to need millions of gold to fix that.

    This kind of brings me on to the main point of my argument. We share Dex with Monks as our primary attribute. Dex gives dodge, not resist as its secondary stat stack. Now correct me if I am wrong but it is likely Wizards and Witch Doctors are rolling in gear with ~1300+ int at act 1 inferno? That gives ~130 base res on each resistance right? The amount of gold I would need to replicate that on my Demon Hunter is going into the millions as the EU AH stands currently. It is not melee attacks that kill me in Act1 Inferno, its the ranged projectiles or the reflects dmg affix which makes it really hard to kill rare/champ packs on my own. I have a feeling this will be the same in Act2 with the sand wasps etc.

    Smoke screen like I said is a really needed skill in inferno, if you don't have it you might as well not play DH. However, please bear in mind that Demon hunters have two resource pools to look at for our def and off abilities, hatred regen is a little easier to manage. Disc regen is really hard to manage, when your disc is all gone, you are gone.

    Hopefully that adds some observations to the discussion. I am not saying if Wizard is stronger than DH or vice versa, I am simply giving facts regarding Int and the res it brings and the fact that MY DH dies to projectile based dmg or the nasty reflects dmg affix.

    It's a shame because this kind of argument should be taken to the class forums but hopefully this at least adds some observations that open the opportunity for some proper discussion, rather than what is happening at the moment.
     

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