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Off-Topic in the OTF

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by BobCox2, Aug 16, 2012.

  1. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    There pretty much is; which is my previous post.

    We <COULD> get into the whole issue of Socialist totalitarian belief about "one more regulation and we'll all be in Utopia" if you really like, or I could just point out that weapons maintenance & training was generally regarded as a life skill until very recently.
    • My grandfather learned drill & ceremony when he was a freshman in university, even though he was not military-bound.
    • I took hunter safety in 6th grade as a public school elective course.
    • Children in the U.S. used to be armed in the classroom within the last 60 years.
     
  2. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    My guess was 1-2 millions, but I looked it up. According to Wikipedia, it's 1.4 million active soldiers and 1.1 million reservists. Civil servants aren't included. When taking the navy out of the calculation, it's probably more than 2 millions. If the US turned into a totalitarian system, they will probably find another 5 millions who are willing to fight for them in the army and 5 millions for paramilitaristic troops like the SA of the nazis. That's enough.

    A totalitarian system will probably have little concern for the people of enemy countries and could do what the nazis did in Poland, for example. The nazi problems with partizans were due to their army being bound in other places. There was no real problem with them until things went bad in Russia.

    The people in Switzerland are armed because they have to keep their army guns at home. Many of them would prefer to give them back. That's a difference to people who have weapons because they want to. Besides, I doubt that the main reason for people of the US to have arms is to prevent totalitarism, but protection from armed criminals and simply because they like it to have them.
     
  3. kestegs

    kestegs D3 Monk Moderator

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    I would say the majority of gun owners I know personally have cited all 3 of those reasons actually. But most of those people would also say that your first and second reasons are the same.
     
  4. LozHinge the Unhinged

    LozHinge the Unhinged IncGamers Member

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    Many ordinary Americans see government as an enemy with which an uneasy truce is held.
    Many ordinary Europeans see government as their friend and protector.

    My UK friends think gun-owning Americans are delusional.
    The irony is super-nova hot. I'd laugh if it wasn't so bloody depressing.
     
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  5. kamap

    kamap IncGamers Member

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    I don't see my governement as a friend not a protector, I also don't see it as an enemy I see it as a nesecary evil.

    @LozHinge the Unhinged: I don't think gun owning americans are delusional or wrong or anything like that.
    I would just like to see the ones that don't treat their weapons as the weapons they are but as a toy get some sense slapped in them.

    @jmervyn:
    I was refering to:
    Anyway, an armed population is more of a deterrent to government imposing totalitarianism on it than a dis-armed population - yes or no? It will potentially save both of us time if you answer just that simple question.

    There isn't just a simple yes or no answer to this.
    In a white room situation the answer would be yes.
    Throw in people and that white room situation completely changes, so many variables get thrown in that it becomes impossible to answer that with only the barest info.

    While that might all be true, guns should be stored away from the ammo and not just left lying around loaded were anyone can find it and play with it and accidently kill their siblings / parrents / classmates.
    Here in Belgium any legal gun owner gets checked if he stores his weapons in a safe way. If he doesn't his license and weapons can be taken away if the situation doesn't improve.
    I don't know how it works in America but something tells me this is not the case.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019 at 10:18 AM
  6. kestegs

    kestegs D3 Monk Moderator

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    I'll agree with that sentiment.


    I also see my government as a necessary evil, but I don't think it necessarily needs to be as evil as it is.

    I'll let Merv handle your response, but imho you seem to have cleared it up with your indecision.

    I will both agree and disagree with your stance on keeping a gun safe and locked up. I currently keep my pistol in a lockbox and the ammo in a different safe. I do this because I have children in my home and I would rather not take any chances. Ideally the gun would be loaded sitting on my nightstand, because you might as well not have one at all if it takes you 1-2 min to access it. So it varies greatly based on your situation.

    Also, in response to this whole conversation have a look at what is happening in Egypt. While Egypt is not exactly a paragon of Democracy or Republic it still is. All it takes is the wrong people to get enough power to turn this county on its head. The constitution can be changed. And the reality is that there's already likely enough people in power to change things, they just don't realize, or aren't willing to admit, that they're actually on the same side.
     
  7. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    So kris, I'm assuming you had a stint as a reservist in the bundeswehr - I believe that is mandatory. Did you ever encounter the concept known in US studies as the "tooth to tail ratio"? As you know, I was an Infantry Captain and even as a cadet I spent time assigned to the 7th Infantry Division "Light" in Ft Ord California, which was a test-bed for such studies.

    Your statement pretty much indicates a lack of familiarity with the concepts involved, so here's some light reading from Ft. Leavenworth (PDF): The Other End of the Spear: The Tooth-to-Tail Ratio (T3R) in Modern Military Operations

    A shallow summary: it theoretically takes 13.26 soldiers per 1000 civilians to police / occupy a nation with insurgency. Only around 4 of those soldiers are considered combat troops, while over 9 are support. So even if the numbers you looked up - 1.4M active & 1.1M reserve for a total of 2.5M - would be sufficient THEORETICALLY to police 188.5M people. U.S. current population is 328.6M.

    "But Wait!" you stubbornly demand - "Merv sucks at maths!" Which is true. However, deeper reading of the "tooth to tail" concept ought to make you realize that not only are a huge portion of the numbers you originally considered as combatants actually part of the "tail" (much of the reserves deliberately so, such as medical & engineering forces) but also only a small part of those numbers are actual land warfare units. Furthermore, many are fulfilling duties which you would likely consider those of "civil servants".

    A random source pegs Army strength at 507,000 & Marine strength at under 180,000, both of which include support troops. One of the white paper's conclusions is that only a third of the Army is actually intended to fight.

    In fact, if you look at page 54 of the white paper, you'll see that only 28% of the forces occupying Iraq in 2005 were combatants - this includes contractors which you might consider "civil servants" classified as "life support" because they otherwise would have to come out of the military strength, civilian or uniformed. More simply, in order to field such effective soldiers, you require a lot of support troops. The Marines pretend they have bent reality to meet their needs, but they don't admit that what they actually do is rely completely on the Navy to provide that non-combat support. Even THEN there's plenty of Marines who are actually not combat troops even though their literature & boasting proclaims otherwise.

    I needn't get into other military endeavors to shout you down regarding your assertion about Nazis vs. Resistance; If you don't like Vietnam you can consider Napoleon's occupation of Spain, where guerillas killed more than the English & Portugese. The principles remain the same over time; only the proportions vary.

    kestegs' answer is spot on so I won't reiterate it.
     
  8. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Still really not terribly complex. If you have an armed population, and they are defiant, it is terribly hard to suppress them. Iraq was disarmed previously, so weapons were distributed from Iraqi Army stockpiles to manufacture an insurgency; Saddam didn't just leave munitions lying around when he was in control. In Afghanistan, where an ink pen in one's pocket indicates an elevated status of literacy, weapons & ammo are scarce & prized possessions, though actual ownership might actually be higher than that of Iraq thanks to decades of thievery & smuggling. In fighting the USSR, the Mujadeen used turn-of-the-Century buffalo guns as sniper rifles...

    Quite so; we often react to someone ordering us about with anger, if the criticism is unwarranted or not the other person's right to express. I don't maintain my guns in NY because the Fascist Scum of the Vampire State would conduct a no-knock raid on my house (AKA kick down my door in the middle of the night) & sentence me to a year in jail for breathing. Happily that is starting to slowly change, but it didn't stop clocksmucker Governor Cuomo from throwing both a cop from out of state & an active duty Marine in jail simply because they were in transit with their validly licensed out-of-state weapons.

    Anyroad, in the U.S. many adults outside of Progressive areas (the coasts & Illinois) train their children on gun safety from their earliest ages. Here's a beautiful example of the result, which was not at all what the Leftists wanted to establish. There have been attempts at larger studies but unsurprisingly those aren't as visible - probably because they reinforce the obvious conclusion: if a child isn't taught gun safety, they are more prone to act in an unsafe fashion when encountering a gun.
     
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  9. kamap

    kamap IncGamers Member

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    True but that was after the fact when the governement wanted to install a totalitarian regime and the populace rebelled against it, not before to deter the governement and not try to install the totalitarian regime.
    If the people had been armed prior to those governements trying to install thier totalitarian regime it would have led to more bloodshed but the governement might still have tried it.
    If power hungry people decide to do it no matter what the cost it wont matter to them if the people they want to rule are armed or not.
    So it will be easier to fight back when the populace is armed but wont deter them.


    Teaching kids gun safety is good and I applaud that.
    There are still too much people all over the world who don't teach their kids that or don't practice gun safety themselves and that is how accidents happen.
    Same with letting teenagers get their hands on guns way to easily, beeing lax in background checks and check ups of the people who own a gun is also a worldwide problem.
    Sadly there isn't a clear and cut sollution, there will always be people that will want to hurt other people and they will find a way.

    What do you mean by that indecision?

    While it is true that it would be better to have it locked and loaded closeby when you need it, the safety of your kids is more important which I'm happy to see you think the same way. Sadly not everyone thinks that way and have their loaded gun lying somewhere.
    Having it loaded in a place only you can acess quickly would also be ok. Like something with a combination lock only you know or with a fingerprint scanner or a lock and the key is on your person at all times.
     
  10. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    Jmervyn, your numbers about how many soldiers are needed to keep a country in check are probably considering that there's a certain amount of rights to be granted to civilians. Certain totalitarian systems might have completely different ideas about that.

    Of course, not every totalitarian system is as terrible as the other, but it might be. With other words, it depends. There are probably totalitarian systems that can be prevented by armed people, but there are also those who are more likely to arise because of them.
     
  11. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Still isn't supportive of your original claim that <everything> about the question is situational or flexible. An armed populace is simply more capable of resisting tyranny even if supported by many citizens. Some estimates of the American Revolution are that only between 3% to 15% of the populace were actual "rebels".

    For another example, the Japanese are remarkably subservient to rule as seen w/ Fukushima & casualties in the aftermath - but the proposition of a hostile occupation was prohibitive to the US prior to the Emperor's surrender & the accompanying national shame. If Japan had decided to go ronin, it would have been ungovernable despite overwhelming US force & firepower.
    The issue isn't terribly different from driving a car, which makes your comparative view both hilarious & reinforcing of mine. I'm aware of European automobile policies in a similar vein as the American "3 strikes & you're out" criminal ones, which if enforced in the US would "scare straight" most jackass drivers who drink before getting behind the wheel. However, it would also be challenged & overturned on the basis of denying economic survival to the drunks, because the U.S. generally doesn't consider public transport or working from home to be legitimate (untrue, but a good lawyer would make the case).
    Not really; I know you're allergic to reading my sources but it is in consideration of hostile occupation. Ethnic cleansing of the host population aside, the principles hold true.
    Sorry kris, but you've been proven wrong in a variety of styles.

    And here people make fun of ME for not conceding my claim about the lyrics of Steely Dan's "Do it Again"!
     
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  12. kestegs

    kestegs D3 Monk Moderator

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    You couldn't answer what is an extremely simple question. And it's really not even a question that warrants an opinion attached to it, it's a simple fact that it's more difficult any way you look at it.

    Yes, I have considered getting such things for gun storage as well, just haven't done it.
     
  13. kamap

    kamap IncGamers Member

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    @jmervyn and @kestegs: Let's agree to disagree then for me in a white room situation its a yes in the real world to many factors play a roll to decide if an armed populace would deter a governement that would like to install a totalitarian regime.
    I'll give you that once that governement tries it the armed populace will be better suited to fight back.
    Though it started with deter it ever happening, no?

    Maybe the problem lies in the distinction between detering and already happening? Cause I'm talking about the detering side of things.

    @jmervyn: Yeah there are also too many drivers who don't use the logical part of their brains same with gun owners. The car you get into can be as deadly as the gun you are carrying.
    Sadly here in Belgium the 3 strikes your out rule for drivers isn't there, they can keep speeding and drunken driving as long as no one gets killed its mostly just a slap on the wrist and it enfuriates me.
     
  14. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    I don't think so.
     
  15. LozHinge the Unhinged

    LozHinge the Unhinged IncGamers Member

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    Yes, but you've been wrong before ...
     
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  16. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    Probably, but nut not at the topics of your choice.
     
  17. LozHinge the Unhinged

    LozHinge the Unhinged IncGamers Member

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    Yeah, OK kris. You're a legend in your own lunchtime!
     
  18. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    Yes, I'm pretty good at knowing what I know.
     
  19. LozHinge the Unhinged

    LozHinge the Unhinged IncGamers Member

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    On that razor-fine point we can agree!
     
  20. kestegs

    kestegs D3 Monk Moderator

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    Sound logic, he's got us there!
     

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