No Baal Runs!!!

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Every time you defended on this thread MFing through exploration should be more rewarding than by doing boss runs. Every single time you rejected boss runs, every single time you imply anyone wishing to do boss runs has no desire to "play the game".

I always said equally or more rewarding several times ... it's really irrelevant to the point ... as for the second point .. yes it is true.

When people start skipping a whole game with the aim to reach a certain location at the END of the game that's not playing the game at all ... it's like using a skip level code in an FPS to reach the last boss and defeat it cause you don't find the game interesting ... that isn't playing the game .. and a person like that is better off looking for a game that he actually like playing.

The Devs already stated they feel bad about this and indeed they are right about it .. if i made a game and founf people skipping through it after a couple of playthroughs .. that's a failure in design.


I played Halo over 5 times on various difficulties and every playthrough was fun and addicting because of the good game design and how the physics and AI design added a layer of randomness to all battles and encounters -even though the game world is static- that every time they feel like a new experience ... if i started skipping through the levels after playing it for once i would know i didn't like the game that much and be honest and quit it.


If Boss runs rewarded no items no one would have ever wanted to do them because of their extremely repetitive and boring nature .. they are boring by definition ... People do them cause they are the easiest/fastest way to get items and EXP .. if they find rewards and items else where they will go for it .. and maybe then they will realize what they were missing.


Playing through the game and exploring on the other hand is what the game is all about .. many WANTED to do it even if they found no incentive to do it .. but there were greatly let down by the severe lack of attention the Devs gave exploration .. not even a single feature to make it viably fun like it should be (be it MF or any other feature .. there were non ... and still many opted to explore just because they like doing it .. but it always felt sour how much exploration was ignored in the design process)

Don't force me to quote. I can and I will

Please do if you feel the need to :coffee:

The difference between you and me is that you want to enforce your way on everybody else, regardless. I don't.

Not really enforcing ... just taming Boss runs so they aren't as rewarding as before .. they will be possible no matter what .. but when you want to introduce a new approach after people have been doing something an old way you need to give them an incentive to try the new approach.


And frankly all games change and evolve .. and they drop outdated and rusty mechanics that encourage spam and abuse .... and most negative point about Boss run is that they are very exploitable due to their very simple nature .. if i'm making a game i'd remove all clearly exploitable features from it cause i don't want anyone exploiting my game and abusing its features in a different way than i intended it.


FPS games used to have a mechanic for health restore using health packs ... now that's outdated and replaced by rebounding health meters (pioneered by Halo into the mainstream FPS market) ... it is so much better in so many ways and keeps the action flowing smoothly and keeps the game very engaging .. if you are outgunned and low on health with med-packs you are dead and there is nothing you can do unless there is one nearby or you had the ability to carry few ... but with rebounding health meter you have to study the battlefield and use it for your advantage by hopping from cover to cover and tactically taking out your enemies while never detracting from the action and never forcing you to go backtrack a whole empty level to look for that extra med-pack you couldn't carry with you.


Boring, exploitable and rusty game mechanics are all ought to die out one day no matter for how long they have been around (med-packs had been around since Doom and still they died out) and get replaced by better more interesting mechanics .. and the D3 team seems to be very aware of that.

 

[Kiroptus]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

This thing of letting the player the choose the way they want does sound indeed quite beautiful and most of the player on this community think like that (which is one of the reasons I never felt myself fitting here, even when I first registered on another acc, 6 years ago). I mean, in D2 anyone can play how they want. Anyone can rush, anyone can PK, anyone can leech xp, anyone can play just fine, I mean... great! how beautfiul, a game where players choose to adapt their playstyle to the game! Thats wonderful!

No, its not. For the simple fact that in a MP enviroment, specially an online RPG that brings EXP and items in the core of its design, the community will find the most cheap way to play the game, obtaining those 2 elements in the cheapest way possible and thats how most of the community will play it (*cough* cowlevels+xpleech *cough* baalruns+hammerdins*cough*).

It all sounds great until you realise that most players will want to play, ops, sorry, exploit the game on how they got the least effort to get stronger. Lets not be hyprocrits here, who in Battle.net does the Khalim Will? Killing the council and getting Durance 2 WP from another character is a clear exploit that Blizzard forgot, it skips a whole act, 1/5th of the game content, certainly it wasnt intentional but thats how most of the people will play the game. Try to make it and at some point of the Khalim parts someone in your party will call their high level friends to make Travincal -> Durance 2. Thats just one example. Its the fastest and most effective way to skip it so people will do it.

If that utopic design philosofy was right then D2 would have been the most perfectly well designed game and lets face it, everyone can like the game all you want but look at it objectivelly and you will see how the is a bare bones coop Multiplayer experience because of many unhappy decisions whithin the game.

I do pray that we get a lot of restrictions on many things that were given as granted on D2, so that the game can follow a certain path to the played because if we let players decide what to do we will have Diablo2 all over again which there is barely any social aspect or cooperation in the game, only a bunch of ppl wanting to use other ppl's character to level and rush and also solo games for the drops so that players wont steal it.

That was my little rant about "letting players choose their style" but still I have to agree with Krugar that we shouldnt give up on boss fights. The reason why boss fights are chosen in D2 is because they are pathetically easy while incredibly rewarding.

I mean... I feel like, we, the humans are the opressors and the demons are the victims because they never stood a chance, look at baal on those 8ppl games, he is pathetic. If we were going to face a boss that is 8 times stronger to support 8ppl with lots of equip and throwing thousands of damage at him, we should expect a challenge but no, every single boss in D2 is a big fat and weak pinata and baal makes me sad.

In D3 I expect them to be much more menacing and actually requiring some strategy to beat. Maybe in normal difficult they can be a bit weaker, like how we saw so far, the thousand poudner, the siegebreaker and even leoric were quite easy to beat. Thats ok, its normal difficulty, but in nightmare and specially Hell difficulty, I expect them to be far more challenging, with new moves and more elaborate battles so to beat them and claim their rewards actually require time and effort, two things never necessary in Diablo2's boss fights.

"Exploration" runs and Boss runs could also go in hand together, maybe after some boss is killed a new event in a certain dungeon appears, so players will hunt those events and with that, players wont leave the game to go the next game spamming "NG" "NG" "NG" and will actually remain to see what has changed in the area, maybe a new boss, an opened passage that wasnt there that leads to more difficult but more rewarding dungeon, etc.. just throwing ideas out, I just believe that bosses can be epic and cool to fight unlike the travesty of bosses that happened in Diablo 2 so if we are to have fun killing those bosses while still leveling and gathering loot, it can be a good choice but no bosses like Diablo2, we need actual threats that emerged from hell itself and not pinatas.

 

[Surfingpikachao]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

They could always make it so that Baal/whatever drops completely rubbish items unless you complete one random quest again from each act? =]

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

They could always make it so that Baal/whatever drops completely rubbish items unless you complete one random quest again from each act? =]

No need to take it to that extent of making a boss drop rubbish items, but i do agree about making the final quest to defeat the last boss quite long .. but very rewarding once you beat it.

Why not just make Baal (or any similar end boss in D3) drop good items slightly more often than other lower bosses and monsters and slightly better in quality .. what's so hard about that ... all you will need to do after that is making the quest leading to that boss the longest quest in the game that requires lots of effort and exploration to complete and feels pretty damn epic .. that way running the end boss will be a lot more harder but beating him once will be very rewarding.

What was so hard about making it that way .. i have no freaking idea why they made it in a way that greatly encouraged spam and bots !!!?

 

[Krugar]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

What was so hard about making it that way .. i have no freaking idea why they made it in a way that greatly encouraged spam and bots !!!?[/B]

I agree it was a strange decision.
One of the things that always troubled me about D2 was the lack of a tangible reward by beating a Boss during quest time. In the context of random drops, this would mean buffing considerably the infamous "Fist Kill" and nerfing any subsequent kills. D2 does this, but not to an acceptable extent. Killing a boss during "First Kill" is a tremendous frustrating experience almost all the time.

This would result in more players wanting to quest, instead of just spamming the boss. Lowered drop chances would still give those players favoring boss spamming an option to consider. But a buffed "first kill" that guaranteed at least one unique (or maybe a 1:2, or 1:3 chance of at least one unique) would be a deserving reward for anyone wishing to quest.

Of course, the fact D2 system allows for rushing (in my opinion the one Flaw of D2 deserving of the capital letter) makes this possibility impracticable. But we shall see what D3 brings on this regard.

 

[Ishtor]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

i dont know, i like how you have to break all 5 seals and kill the uniqe monsters to release diablo to finally be able to beat him ( although it would be nice if all 5 seals would of spawned monsters, instead of jsut 3 of 5.) Also having to fight baals minions before you can fight baal was neet. It is kool to me when you know your right there but still have a little bit more to do.

I hope this is something they do to all the major bosses before you can fight them. It will defantly make the game more fun. I can honestly say running chaos runs, are my favorite thing to do because i am required to kill so many thing to actually kill diablo, more to do in one game keeps me happy.

 

[JonoLith]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

No need to take it to that extent of making a boss drop rubbish items, but i do agree about making the final quest to defeat the last boss quite long .. but very rewarding once you beat it.

Why not just make Baal (or any similar end boss in D3) drop good items slightly more often than other lower bosses and monsters and slightly better in quality .. what's so hard about that ... all you will need to do after that is making the quest leading to that boss the longest quest in the game that requires lots of effort and exploration to complete and feels pretty damn epic .. that way running the end boss will be a lot more harder but beating him once will be very rewarding.

What was so hard about making it that way .. i have no freaking idea why they made it in a way that greatly encouraged spam and bots !!!?

My concern with this would be that the allure of the Diablo franchise is really that it's go go go action action that you can jump out of at any moment. You can make progression after only a half hour of play, and it's not to the detriment of the people playing with you if you just happen to leave whenever you feel like it.

When I hear people saying "Make a long quest line", what I actually hear is "Make a time sink." And not just a time sink, but one in which a player must sit down and go through for a considerable period of time to see any achievement. (Note: I mean length of time to mean linked time. A chunk of time that must be completed in succession. I do not mean playing four hours over ten sessions of play, I mean that to succeed you must play four hours in one session of play.)

I'm not saying that this is your intention, but this is usually when happens when these kinds of systems are introduced. To see any success you MUST be willing to put in the amount of time to remain 'on par'. (Again, please not I'm talking about "time" as successive time.) Basically, if I can't sit down and play for a half hour and leave whenever I want; if I am punished for doing so because I need to play for even an hour, then that is a problem.

The diablo franchise is built on the backbone of casual play. A system like this might run counter to that.

I would also quickly like to address the idea of "Allowing the players to choose where to play." This is idealistic, but ultimately impossible. What will always happen is that the player base will find out exactly what system of play (Raiding, Exploring, Questing, Grinding Mobs, Ect. Ect. Ect.) will find them the best loot, and will play that system for eternity. Players have shown again and again that they are more then willing to do something that is less fun for more loot.

What this means is that you cannot have two systems running parallel, one that is full of fun and excitement, but not a lot of rewards, and one that is boring and repetitive, but has a lot of rewards, and expect the player base to remain pleased.

What will happen is that the player who decides that fun is the most important will play for fun and enjoy it, but then he will see the player who is playing for loot and feel as if he has been robbed because the player who is playing for loot will be leaps and bounds ahead of him, and the fun player will inevitably gravitate towards doing the more repetitive grind in order to loot up. What will inevitably happen is that the areas and events that are built for fun will become vacant and largely unused because the loot is at the boring grind.

The solution, in my mind, is simple. Offer poorer rewards at the grind, or remove it altogether. Players will always gravitate towards what is more rewarding for them.

This is something that a designer should know, incidentally, and therefore manipulate. If they want players to explore, then there are solutions for that, and one of the major ones is rewarding the player more then the grind does.

Basically, the Diablo 2 team WANTED people to do Baal runs, because they built their game to be that. I would call that a failure of design as it negated 90% of the rest of their game for the endgame, when they could have very easily opened up the world to be explored simply by dropping the loot and xp tables on the bosses across the board, and creating more randomized encounters that would benefit the player, such as the one I've suggested in previous posts.

If you try to run both of these systems side by side, one of them is going to be barren. I say, don't bother wasting resources and focus on rewarding people for doing something that is less repetitive, and more randomized.

 

[sirwhere]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

I would like to see rewards proportional to monster toughness. The higher the difference between monster and player level, the higher the chance for a good drop. Then monster modifiers like boss, superboss, extra strong/fast, champion would add to the difference, etc. Good damage would lower it, etc.

A level 90 with 20 000 damage should get nothing but a couple of coins

A level 70 beating a xfast xstrong mino boss should get a really big axe out of it

 

[Krugar]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Gah! I missed that post from Kiroptus. There's a few things there I would like to address...

That was my little rant about "letting players choose their style"

I agree with your assertions about this issue to some extent. But this is really not an issue of exploitable bugs or general player behavior that tends towards taking the easy route. The thing about "letting players choose their style" has to do with the game making that offer to players, regardless.

If players choose to exploit the game or adventure, go mass murder or invest in tactical fighting, explore or do 10k Pit runs, should be their option.

Of course, this is at the very least Utopian. But so is the thought of a peaceful planet Earth and yet everyday we try hard. The point is a game should thrive to be as wide as possible in its approach to gameplay. Forcing players into certain pre-determined playstyle is removing diversity from the game and possibly even alienating a part of the player base.

This is why I defend anyone saying they want more adventure, but will protest against anyone saying that for this we should have no more Baal runs.

There is absolutely no "Adventuring - Baal Runs" dichotomy. This is what I have been trying so hard to say. One can make D3 a game heavily adventure based and still maintain Mob and Area runs. There's this false idea that both things should exclude each other when it just doesn't need to be this way. And because it doesn't need to be this way, both sides of the fence get served.

we shouldnt give up on boss fights. The reason why boss fights are chosen in D2 is because they are pathetically easy while incredibly rewarding.

They are now because we learned all the tricks. In any case, yes! Absolutely! A mob run shouldn't be a piece of cake. But for that matter I wished this thread title would have been "No Pindle Runs!!!" and not what it is. Because Baal is the hardest of the doable runs. And it is in fact quite a fun run I must say! (If done properly. That is actually do WS K + Baal, instead of telehoping all over the place to baal minions).

I'm hoping D3 introduces heavily scripted Boss runs.

 

[JonoLith]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

I would like to see rewards proportional to monster toughness. The higher the difference between monster and player level, the higher the chance for a good drop. Then monster modifiers like boss, superboss, extra strong/fast, champion would add to the difference, etc. Good damage would lower it, etc.

A level 90 with 20 000 damage should get nothing but a couple of coins

A level 70 beating a xfast xstrong mino boss should get a really big axe out of it

I think what this is asking for is people to just break down when the best time to kill a monster would be. "Don't kill X until you are Y level." It's going to turn into one of those self imposed restrictions that players put on themselves, simply because there will always be an optimal time to do X.

 

[Kiroptus]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

If players choose to exploit the game or adventure, go mass murder or invest in tactical fighting, explore or do 10k Pit runs, should be their option.

I heavily disagree that exploiting the game should ever be an option. Its true that some players will try their best effort to do so but Developers must always be inserting rules and fixes to make it non-profitable and non-effective (contraty to D2) so I dont think it should ever have this kind of playstyle supported.


And yes, Baal is the hardest run but the problem is that with such an advent as teleport (enigma) and hammerdin, it came to the point that a robot can do it, if this power was always intended when they released 1.10 so they should have adjusted it to be even more difficult.

 

[Akse]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

I heavily disagree that exploiting the game should ever be an option. Its true that some players will try their best effort to do so but Developers must always be inserting rules and fixes to make it non-profitable and non-effective (contraty to D2) so I dont think it should ever have this kind of playstyle supported.


And yes, Baal is the hardest run but the problem is that with such an advent as teleport (enigma) and hammerdin, it came to the point that a robot can do it, if this power was always intended when they released 1.10 so they should have adjusted it to be even more difficult.

Agree!

And yes its not a hard run anymore when a bot can do it. Try make a bot to clear CS in classic.. that should give some challenge without overpowered items and no merc.

 

[LiftedUp]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

What this means is that you cannot have two systems running parallel, one that is full of fun and excitement, but not a lot of rewards, and one that is boring and repetitive, but has a lot of rewards, and expect the player base to remain pleased.

There's this false idea that both things should exclude each other when it just doesn't need to be this way. And because it doesn't need to be this way, both sides of the fence get served.

This, now, is the argument. I think. But after twelve pages it's hard to say exactly. In any case, I support Krugar's position, and here's why:

We couldn't and wouldn't have Jonolith's argument without Jonolith believing in the "fun and excitement" of the "unrewarding" path--that the unrewarding D2 path is the path worth pursuing, that it can be and is fun and exciting. That is, Jonolith's argument already presupposes that fun and excitement can be and are divorced from rewards, and that, nevertheless, fun and excitement are worth pursuing. He refutes himself for us.

What I'm here to unpopularly posit is that Krugar is right. That these two paths need not be mutually exclusive, i.e., both can be fun and exciting/boring and repetitive, both can be unrewarding/rewarding. That's how games operate: they're never reliably the same way twice. I can play Monopoly and get hotels on the blues and greens, and I can play Monopoly and get stuck with the utilities. Either way and for some reason, I keep playing.

Rushing, runs and Gubers can be and are fun for me. They can be boring and repetitive, but I really enjoy how much those who run them and join them have invested in them. It's as serious as working through Act Two one quest at a time. How can you look at a Baal running channel like Op Shockbaal on USEast and not be impressed? These guys know exactly how, where and what to do to make each Baal run as experience rich as possible. But wait...

I heavily disagree that exploiting the game should ever be an option.

Really? For me, half (maybe three-quarters) of the fun of D2 comes from manipulating mechanics. I understand PDR vs %DR, and, therefore, am able to better adapt certain builds to certain environments. Have you even seen the Statistics sub-forum? My guess is no, but let me tell you, there's a whole culture here on this larger forum that's dedicated to manipulating (exploiting?) the mechanics of a game. It's fun, refreshing, and helpful to the community as a whole as the knowledge base grows and deepens.

What Diablo 2 does is offer a variety of gameplay experiences. There's been all this talk about who speaks up and who doesn't, but are you only reading the D3 Community Forum? Have the sub-forums here suggested nothing? The single-player forum always has the most viewers/readers (i.e., a forum that revolves around people who refuse to deal with bnetters, i.e., a forum that plays the game), the trading forums get their fair share of posts per day, statistics and strategy answer questions and explore new options, and for God's sake, there's a community!

This is good. I like and want it.

 

[JonoLith]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

We couldn't and wouldn't have Jonolith's argument without Jonolith believing in the "fun and excitement" of the "unrewarding" path--that the unrewarding D2 path is the path worth pursuing, that it can be and is fun and exciting. That is, Jonolith's argument already presupposes that fun and excitement can be and are divorced from rewards, and that, nevertheless, fun and excitement are worth pursuing. He refutes himself for us.

This is an inaccurate representation of what I am saying. You are basically saying something that I am not saying at all.

You are saying that I believe "fun and excitement" to be worth pursuing bereft of any kind of rewards. This is not what I am saying at all. I hope this will make it clear.

1) "Fun and Exciting" is better then "Boring and Repetitive."

2) "The Best Loot in the Game" will always be sought after as a goal before "Fun and Exciting."

3) IF "The Best Loot in the Game" is attached to the completion of a task which is "Boring and Repetitive" THEN "Boring and Repetitive" will see more play than "Fun and Exciting" leaving "Fun and Exciting" game play unused and barren.

4) IF "The Best Loot in the Game" is attached to the completion of a task which is "Fun and Exciting" THEN "Fun and Exciting" will see more play then "Boring and Repetitive" leaving "Boring and Repetitive" game play unused and barren.

5) THEREFORE since "Fun and Exciting" is better than "Boring and Repetitive" THEN "The Best Loot in the Game" should be attached to "Fun and Exciting" game play.

6) "Random Quest Events" are more "Fun and Exciting" than "Baal Runs."

7) THEREFORE "Random Quest Events" should be attached to "The Best Loot in the Game."

Given my path of thought here, this means that "Baal Runs" which are "Boring and Repetitive" should be done away with in favor of "Random Quest Events" which are certainly more "Fun and Exciting". (I've outlined what "Random Quest Events" means in this thread, in a post that has gone largely unnoticed it seems.)

Now, If you wish to put "Baal Runs" into the game, but insist on putting the best loot in the game onto them, or even loot that is equal to other types of events, than all other types of events will become unused and barren. Here's my chain of thought for that. (Note: This chain assumes equal loot value for the completion of "Baal Runs" and "Random Quest Events".)

A) Players will always gravitate towards whatever will provide the easiest, fastest, rewards, regardless of entertainment value.

B) "Baal Runs" are static.

C) "Random Quest Events" are randomized.

D) Static Encounters are easier, and faster, to farm then Randomized ones. (Farming meaning to continuously run something repeatedly ad nauseum.)

E) THEREFORE, players will always gravitate towards Static Encounters, which are "Baal Runs".

F) GO TO Point 1 above.

So, as you can see clearly here, any system that is put in place will be ignored in favor of Baal Runs, given these conditions. The only way to avoid this, if you wish to have Baal Runs in the game, is to lower the loot that given from said Baal Run. This will, in turn, make the run useless to the player base however, which, I have already said several times throughout this thread, is fine by me.

Now, if you insist on saying that I am saying something other then what I am actually saying, I will simply requote this chain of logic for you. If, however, you wish to refute any one point I've made, please make your case. I believe, strongly, that my logic is sound.

(Note: Please do not make the case that Baal Runs can be more Fun and Exciting then the Randomized Quest Events. The mere suggestion is unsound as if there are even only two Random Quests to be had from the system, it is already twice as Fun and Exciting as a Baal Run. In fact, the system would have to simply not exist at all for it to be less Fun and Exciting.)

I'm sorry to have gone all Vulcan on you, but it seems to be the only way to make my points clearly without having someone totally twist what I have been saying all along to suit their own needs.

 

[LiftedUp]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Jono,

You haven't gone Vulcan. You've simply pretended that syllogisms are real and worthwhile in a gaming environment.

I'm all for the loot moving outside of Baal runs, and I don't run them for the loot. At the end of the season, as it is now, very few players do. That said, your argument stands. All I'm saying is that fun and exciting can be its own reward. You seem to have suggested as much, or I hope you have anyway. That a game can be a game and is enjoyable as such.

This whole forum is on board with that. This whole forum also seems to suggest that a game can be multiplicitous. If loot tied to runs and rushes means that's where the fun is and that the game has failed somehow, then I simply can't explain the number of posts this forum (outside the D3 Community Forum) sees daily.

I guess what I'm suggesting is that "fun and boring" can all happen at once. Things have been ok since then.

 

[JonoLith]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Really? For me, half (maybe three-quarters) of the fun of D2 comes from manipulating mechanics. I understand PDR vs %DR, and, therefore, am able to better adapt certain builds to certain environments. Have you even seen the Statistics sub-forum? My guess is no, but let me tell you, there's a whole culture here on this larger forum that's dedicated to manipulating (exploiting?) the mechanics of a game. It's fun, refreshing, and helpful to the community as a whole as the knowledge base grows and deepens.

Well let's be clear on one point; regardless of whether or not you believe such manipulation/exploitation is right or wrong, it is certainly in the game, and has been left there by the designers. Since the designers of the game have left it in place, and MUST have the knowledge of what players can do with that, (And if they don't then they deserve whatever happens anyway), then it is safe to say that the designers WANT the players to manipulate/exploit the game.

Now, if an exploit is found, and corrected, then it is clear that the designers don't want the players doing that.

Besides, sometimes flaws in design turn into design.

 

[Krugar]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

The thing is that Baal runs aren't really boring and repetitive. Pindle runs? Yup. But Baal runs aren't... and yet...

Players seek to make Baal runs "boring and repetitive" by telehoping around. There's a behavioral pattern here than can't be ignored: Players will always seek to simplify to the best of their abilities any task into a "boring and repetitive" task. They (we) do it because what we are after is not "fun and exciting", but something else entirely... achievement.

...

Now, I do see the merits of making the game more fun and exciting. But as LiftedUp pointed out, it's hard to conceive after 8 years of success that a game like Diablo 2 with all it's "boring and repetitive" baal runs is not a "fun and exciting" game. So... here I stand again, by proof of concept, that boring and fun aren't mutually exclusive and can live together on the same game.

Make D3 even more fun and exciting? Yes!
Give D3 more chances for exploration and adventuring? Yes!
Provide more and more varied Baal runs? Yes!
Sacrifice Baal runs for the sake of exploration and adventuring? No!

 

[LiftedUp]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Besides, sometimes flaws in design turn into design.

That's a great point. And a sensible one. I think the "right or wrong" business shouldn't enter the conversation...this isn't an ethics class after all.

I'd argue against the idea that the designers must "want" manipulation, though. I hope they desire their wives and husbands, and I hope they have ideas about what might happen in the game they build. Allowing and wanting are two very different concepts.

 

[JonoLith]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Jono,

You haven't gone Vulcan. You've simply pretended that syllogisms are real and worthwhile in a gaming environment.

The keyword here "pretended" seems to suggest that it is somehow not useful. I would simply say that I disagree because a deductive path has shown to be quite useful in almost every single other aspect of human existence. I don't understand why this would be any different.

I'm all for the loot moving outside of Baal runs, and I don't run them for the loot. At the end of the season, as it is now, very few players do. That said, your argument stands. All I'm saying is that fun and exciting can be its own reward. You seem to have suggested as much, or I hope you have anyway. That a game can be a game and is enjoyable as such.

This is absolutely true, that there is occasion to play a game for the sake of enjoying the game itself. However, you and I both know that there is certainly an aspect of advancement attached to the player mindset. People want to gain something, and they will give up fun to do so. I am merely suggesting that we make advancement (IE; Loot) tie in very closely to what is more enjoyable.

This whole forum is on board with that. This whole forum also seems to suggest that a game can be multiplicitous. If loot tied to runs and rushes means that's where the fun is and that the game has failed somehow, then I simply can't explain the number of posts this forum (outside the D3 Community Forum) sees daily.

I have never said once that somehow Loot = Fun. Fun and Loot are two different entities that exist side by side. "Fun" is the enjoyment of the experience of game play. (Or, out of game reward) "Loot" is the advancement of the character inside of the game. (Or, in game reward.) We have seen again and again that given the choice, players will give up fun in favor of loot. I am suggesting giving them both simultaneously.

I guess what I'm suggesting is that "fun and boring" can all happen at once. Things have been ok since then.

I simply disagree that something can be "fun and boring" at the same time. The statement is a paradox.

 

[LiftedUp]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Thanks for the blow by blow. Anyway.

I simply disagree that something can be "fun and boring" at the same time. The statement is a paradox.

It's not at the same time (though maybe it is). It's simply all possible at once. That I can enter the game and have a fun or boring experience. That randomized gameplay might not always be fun and that prescripted gameplay (your example would be a Baal run, I think) might not always be boring.

Both are possible in every instance/instant of gameplay.