No Baal Runs!!!

[JonoLith]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Don't be astounded. I got it, 2 pages ago. And I what I have been saying is I don't agree with this bit:

Are we clear now? Or do I also need to be astounded with the fact you keep not being able to read my arguments?

So, just so I am clear, your entire arguement is centralized around the idea of maintaining a boring Baal Run? You want your game to be boring? Why? Wouldn't you rather have a fun game?

I mean, do you just WANT the game to fail?

 

[Krugar]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

*sig*

Jonolith, I've been trying to argue the exact opposite to a boring game while maintaining mob/area runs. I summed up my arguments at least three times already. The last just a few posts above. I really will not do it once again. This is becoming ridiculous.

Naturally you can agree or not with my arguments. That's a completely different matter altogether. But you don't even know what I'm talking about as the above shows. This. I'm sorry to say, is irritating me.

So, I suggest you either do a proper reading of my earlier posts and gain full knowledge what my stance on this matter is, or -- and probably this will be best -- just ignore me and anything I have to say.

 

[JonoLith]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

just ignore me and anything I have to say.

This is probably what will happen, because as far as I'm concerned your entire point has been to say "I like Baal runs and have no interest in seeing that format go away."

You seem to think you are saying something else, but everything you've said indicates otherwise.

 

[Funkopotamus]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Somehow, boss runs and mob runs should co-exist. Some days I feel like I need the glitz and glam of fighting a boss for 6 hours. Some days I just want to mow down a lot of guys. Preferably a whole lot. It will be hard to completely eliminate "the run" though as people will eventually deduce the easiest places to farm and then formulate the best character for the build.

I feel like I mentioned this somewhere before, I hope it wasn't in this thread.

 

[traide]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Two ideas (though not entirely convinced that they are good ideas.)

1. One of the interesting concepts for me in WOW is the experience while resting concept. Take some time off, get more exp. I do NOT suggest that for D3. What I do suggest is that instead of globally giving diminishing returns to specific bosses over time, as has been suggested earlier, make it so that exp/drops reduce for individual players over time, and then regenerate after a "resting period" from that boss.
For example, after making 30 baal runs, the runs start to be less productive for me. so, I go and do some diablo runs. After a few days (or weeks, or whatever) baal becomes productive for me again. This would force variety.

2. What if different areas were good for farming different types of items? This is the case somewhat in D2, but this could be implemented much more structurally. Let's say that you were trying to put together a particular set that included armor, a sword, and a ring. Let's say that you know from game mythology that kurast blacksmiths were well known for their abilities in manufacturing weapons. So, you mine kurast until the specific armor you want drops. Then, you go to the plains of despair, because that specific place is specifically designed to drop magical swords. You find the sword you want. Then, you run nihlathak, because he and his minions tend to drop magical jewlery. The stony field would be great for gems.
If you were trying to get a specific item, and you knew that a specific monster or area had a higher chance of dropping that item, you would go to that area or monster to get it. If the armorer in act one was the only place to get raven frost, and you wanted that item for a particular character, you would mine the armorer, not baal.
Does this make sense?

Again, these are just ideas. Feel free to politely flame or disagree.

 

[FreshMeat]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

ON baal runs:

I think the new game is going to be much larger. Don't quote me on this, but most other games like Conan have no ability for this because they are so vast. It is the portal system that makes life dull. Some would say no portals makes life dull, but really, the world operates on a child/parent system. A complex world with an unbending but pleasant parent is best. Portals and easy shots like PindleSkin feed the immature, adictive aspect of the human mind. In the end they lead to little if any sense of accomplishment. You could always do 30 in a row and get a decent shot at a useful rare or unique or maybe a nice rare jewel. However, compared to beating the turf with a few good players clearing out dungeons... bah, no comparison of accomplishment. Especially if that group activity advances the group or a member on a quest or new area or something.

I think the new game is going to be more quest heavy. D2 could have had a bit more of that. It was not lacking though as the game is awesome still! It just could be a bit bigger and more wonderous. I fear that games like Guild Wars are SOOOO vast and the maps so wonderous that it makes a user like me feel a bit left out of the loop. It took me a year+ to almost get through the first purchasable disk's map. I saw the other disks on the shelf a year ago and said to myself, well gee, I cant imagine more stuff.... These are just thoughts about the differences in games.

baal runs would be stopped if it was harder to kill the throne room or more randomized throne room. Put some Ancients in it Be a lot less runs AAAaaaaa!!!

 

[Terenas]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Wow, this is a very interesting idea.

So let me try to clarify...
Let's use D2 as an example. Everybody loves Baal runs, we all know this. His minions give out the most exp, best loot, and are all in one accessible place. So let's say after about a few weeks of non-stop Baal runs from the majority of players. Baal's rates start dropping to adjust with the vast number of people killing him. After about a month, Baal isn't really worth it anymore.

So the community finds a new place, Pindleskin. Everybody wants to kill Pindleskin now, and as they do his rates start to drop as well. In the meantime, since Baal is being ignored his rates begin to rise toward their original value (To prevent nerfing Baal for the rest of eternity). Taking players away from Pindleskin back to Baal.

Is that the general idea? Certainly unique, not sure how it would work out. But props to you for coming up with something original. :thumbup:

Hi all, back in after much lurking.
The quoted idea is like Guild Wars Anti-Farm code, only based on realm behaviour.

As for the "no Baal runs" stance... well, I am amazed (to some extent) the topic is so hot.
Having played Diablo, Diablo 2, LoD (plus a number of other titles, WoW included) extensively I quite frankly have seen enough debate about drop rates, farming, anti farming measures, magic finding to think that as long as we don't know the game structure (including drop rates, loot tables etc), we only can speculate.

And while I'm at that, I must say that for me Chaos Sanctuary running is not a problem, nor it is endless cowruns, or Bloodyruns, or tristram runs, or Uber tristram runs, key runs, pit runs, etc.
Runs in D2 can answer to different kinds of criteria:
- fastest experience
- fastest loot
- best loot (as in 'highest TC/quality')
- specific loot (as in 'Uber Tristram') to name a few
plus others that can either be uniques or trade-offs between existing ones.

I am more concerned about the level of predictability of said runs, because a highly predictable run is basically a bullseye with "bot me" written on it (Pindle anyone ?).

In my opinion it remains to be seen how important the equipment will be versus the character development. But we talk about Diablo and I guess the apple is not going to fall too far from the tree.

Bye

 

[vale]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Maybe they can adjust the loot rate for creature X dynamically based on the number of times creature X has been killed by the community as a whole? I'm not sure how feasible that is, but if it turns out that Baal runs give a lot of loot and the whole community starts doing Baal runs, the loot rate could be adjusted until people start realizing the loot rate is dropping and have to find something new. If you keep dynamically adjusting, the loot rates will even out automatically so that the whole game world is equally worth exploring.

Just a n00b suggestion from a n00b player .

This combined with a "Diablo walks the earth" type scenario where a random Uber boss spawns would give a lot a variety.

In this case I suggest that only in hell difficult completely at random (and rare, but not super rarely) a Uber boss would spawn. BUT it would not spawn at the first super unique allowing you to essentially choose, but completely at random and would leave a simple hint to an act and a location of spawn. EG: Some kind of generic riddle about a Sanctuary of Chaos (Chaos Sanctuary duh) or the likes, as obvious or subtle as needed.

Uber boss could possibly spawn an Uber Champion pack or, an Uber quest (rescue a villager, hold off the demons, etc) that would give a much better than average reward/xp bonus and possibly go toward some kind of statistic on the ladder.

You could make Uber boss spawns more likely to happen when X amount of this type of monster/boss etc is killed (chosen at random, or specifically and changing weekly, monthly, as needed to provide more variety in runs as well).

 

[xZerasx]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

I don't know if this was suggested, but here's an idea.

Have each SuperUnique in an act contribute to the drop chance of the boss. Meaning. Lets say there are ten SuperUniques in the act, along with the boss. The first SuperUnique adds +0.02% chance to the drops of the boss. The next adds +0.04%. Then +0.06%. Then +0.08%. etc.

This could make killing everything in the whole act much more lucrative.

How to combat someone simply running the last SuperUnique and then the boss, with a good increase to the drop rate but still short run times? Make sure the uniques must be killed in order. Another possibility is having the SU's not uniquely contribute. Meaning. ANY SuperUnique you kill contributes +0.02%. Then ANY next one contributes +0.04%. No SU will immediately contribute a large amount like +0.20%. All must be killed to facilitate the best drops.

If anyone sees any flaws to this, let me know. It may still be worth it in some cases to simply run the boss, but at least it's something.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

I don't know if this was suggested, but here's an idea.

Have each SuperUnique in an act contribute to the drop chance of the boss. Meaning. Lets say there are ten SuperUniques in the act, along with the boss. The first SuperUnique adds +0.02% chance to the drops of the boss. The next adds +0.04%. Then +0.06%. Then +0.08%. etc.

This could make killing everything in the whole act much more lucrative.

How to combat someone simply running the last SuperUnique and then the boss, with a good increase to the drop rate but still short run times? Make sure the uniques must be killed in order. Another possibility is having the SU's not uniquely contribute. Meaning. ANY SuperUnique you kill contributes +0.02%. Then ANY next one contributes +0.04%. No SU will immediately contribute a large amount like +0.20%. All must be killed to facilitate the best drops.

If anyone sees any flaws to this, let me know. It may still be worth it in some cases to simply run the boss, but at least it's something.

Nice idea ... they already have something similar regarding EXP and continuous kills giving more EXP gain ... they can extend it to Drop rates as well :thumbup:



On a side note ... I made a topic regarding Exploration enhancing in D3 for those who want to discuss it away from Baal runs XD

http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7137631#post7137631

 

[Krugar]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

On a side note ... I made a topic regarding Exploration enhancing in D3 for those who want to discuss it away from Baal runs XD

http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7137631#post7137631

Well, I did read it. But you are talking about Baal runs there. So it's really not away from Baal runs, is it?

What I find hard to understand Knight is why is that you can't simply discuss Adventuring and Exploration outside the context of Magic Finding. Why is that for you, Exploring should include Magic Finding no matter what.

 

[JonoLith]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Well, I did read it. But you are talking about Baal runs there. So it's really not away from Baal runs, is it?

What I find hard to understand Knight is why is that you can't simply discuss Adventuring and Exploration outside the context of Magic Finding. Why is that for you, Exploring should include Magic Finding no matter what.

I would argue that any human being alive and breathing would like to find items and improve their character while exploring, else no one will do it.

It's all fine and dandy to say that exploration is fun, but the nuts and bolts of it is that if you explore and everyone else does mindless runs that are no fun, but they end up in full set gear and you end up with nothing there's a disparity there.

It's a basic rule of gaming in general. If something is unprofitable, even if it is more enjoyable, people won't do it.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

What I find hard to understand Knight is why is that you can't simply discuss Adventuring and Exploration outside the context of Magic Finding. Why is that for you, Exploring should include Magic Finding no matter what.

Because like it or not magic finding and loot are at the core of the game .... like you said .. items are a big part of Diablo ... so part (not all) of the adventuring suggestions must include good rewards of both EXP and Loot ... it's down right natural and will help many people get into the adventuring mood.


And i already suggested several other things related to adventuring that has nothing to do with magic finding, the crafting recipes, monsters bestiary and encouraged team work are some of them.



----------------------------------------------

I'd like to actually ask you the same question ... Why should something like Boss runs include Magic Finding no matter what !!? ... probably your answer will be the same or not very different from mine above .. but of course you are free to answer however you want XD

 

[Fox VII]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Ideas

1.) Set up NPC's the give repeatable quests/rewards for clearing a zone of all enemies or maybe X enemy type.

2.) Make bosses hard to reach and require certain mini-bosses or groups to be killed before they main boss is accessable.

3.) Add other neat rewards for killing normal monsters which are not provided by killing Bosses. For example, normal monsters only provide charms/gems/runes, while Bosses can only drop normal/magic/rare/legendary gear.

4.) Add a "survival bonus" type of bar that fills up (with diminishing returns) as only normal monsters are killed. If you die the bar goes back to zero. The more full your bar is, the better chance you have of obtaining a rare item from normal monsters.

 

[ditez]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

I really like this thread. Some (a lot) of really good discussion going on here. Does anyone know how we can get this into the right hands at Blizzard? Not that they haven't thought about this and much more, but I think this discussion gives a great balance of ideas and argument. If we could condense this thread into its core arguments it could be a valuable tool. Not that debating isn't enough but maybe something could come out of it.

 

[Krugar]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Because like it or not magic finding and loot are at the core of the game .... like you said .. items are a big part of Diablo ... so part (not all) of the adventuring suggestions must include good rewards of both EXP and Loot ... it's down right natural and will help many people get into the adventuring mood.

There we are again trying to lead players by the hand to places they may simply not wish to go. Don't do this.

And i already suggested several other things related to adventuring that has nothing to do with magic finding, the crafting recipes, monsters bestiary and encouraged team work are some of them.

Precisely! As you can see there is room to discuss adventuring and exploration outside magic finding. This thread is already doing the MF bit.

I'd like to actually ask you the same question ... Why should something like Boss runs include Magic Finding no matter what !!?

Oh, give me a break Knight! Don't throw a Jonolith on me. I have you in much higher regard.

I said this to exhaustion already, it's becoming out of fashion: Boss runs are about items. That's what boss runs have been for 20 years. Please!

Now, I agree we can introduce changes to the game that give room to using other means for item finding. I'm all for that. Sign me in!
But do not alienate players who don't want to commit to the game and actually prefer the simplicity behind the boss/area run method.

 

[Ishtor]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

i also like that idea, anthing that they can do to improve the game is awsome, and making it where people will want to play in the same game for a long period of time would be more enjoyable. This would aslo help on theserver because not as many a games would be made, because people would be staying in there games longer. instead of baal runs it would be act 5 runs Hopefully at the same time they do something at the same time to make you want to play all acts instead of one.

I for one have wanted to keep this seperated from wow as much as possible, but there would be a cool feature they could add to make the game more fun to play. After you beet Hell version, you can create and see games in a new mode. WOW called it heroic, basically what this does for the people who do not know is takes these dungeons, and bumping up the hardness and making them all as difficult as the other. so if they would do this along with that idea, it owuld more benificial to stay in one game instead of making more and more. This mode would just make every act the same difficulty across the board, so all acts would just as hard as the previous, and playing through all level would have a point.

 

[JonoLith]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

T
Oh, give me a break Knight! Don't throw a Jonolith on me.

lol... you're a total Troll Krugar. Just an absolute troll.

I really hope that "Pulling a JonoLith" means calling you on what you're saying, and making you look like a fool, because that is what you are, a fool. You say things, and then when people disassemble your arguements, you say "That's not what I was saying!" With no explanation whatsoever, when it is clear that you ARE INDEED saying those things, and then proceed to insult them.

You are a troll. A very good one mind you, you've managed to hijack my thread skillfully, but that makes it even more pathetic.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

There we are again trying to lead players by the hand to places they may simply not wish to go. Don't do this.

Really !!! ... isn't that what boss runs has been doing all since the beginning .. people were forced to do them since they are the only viable option GIVEN to them by the devs .. actually the ONLY thing rewarding left in the game ..... it wasn't just leading the player by hand into somewhere he/she doesn't want to go to (to repeat something extremely boring mindlessly) but forcing them in that direction with no other choice available.

Precisely! As you can see there is room to discuss adventuring and exploration outside magic finding. This thread is already doing the MF bit.

Adventuring has so many reasons going for it ... MF and others .. there is no reason to put MF out of the reasons for doing adventuring .. a group of people will do it for MF .. others will do it for other reasons and others will do it for both.

I said this to exhaustion already, it's becoming out of fashion: Boss runs are about items. That's what boss runs have been for 20 years. Please!

They were made to be about items .. the devs made them that way and ignored exploration on the other hand .. they indirectly CHOSE to make boss runs rewarding when they gave bosses ridiculous EXP and item gain ... it was all their mistake from the beginning .. for many there is nothing appealing attractive or even remotely interesting about boss runs yet the devs forced them to do it if they wanted to play the game further and stay competitive.

But do not alienate players who don't want to commit to the game and actually prefer the simplicity behind the boss/area run method.

That simplicity degenerates the end game badly ... even with that said .. where is that alienation coming from !!!?

I for one have wanted to keep this seperated from wow as much as possible, but there would be a cool feature they could add to make the game more fun to play. After you beet Hell version, you can create and see games in a new mode. WOW called it heroic, basically what this does for the people who do not know is takes these dungeons, and bumping up the hardness and making them all as difficult as the other. so if they would do this along with that idea, it owuld more benificial to stay in one game instead of making more and more. This mode would just make every act the same difficulty across the board, so all acts would just as hard as the previous, and playing through all level would have a point.

I like that idea a lot .. it is indeed different from just increasing the difficulty normally or adding extra difficulty levels ... it should actually be available as an option with a check box in every new game regardless of difficulty (maybe for both Hell and nightmare) after you finish each once.

 

[Krugar]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

That simplicity degenerates the end game badly ... even with that said .. where is that alienation coming from !!!?

Every time you defended on this thread MFing through exploration should be more rewarding than by doing boss runs. Every single time you rejected boss runs, every single time you imply anyone wishing to do boss runs has no desire to "play the game".

Don't force me to quote. I can and I will...

The difference between you and me is that I want exploration, yes! And I want MFing through exploration too. Just like you. But I don't want that to be the only style. I want for MFing through Boss/Area runs to keep existing too. And players will choose what they like best, or what they feel like doing that day.

The difference between you and me is that you want to enforce your way on everybody else, regardless. I don't.