No Baal Runs!!!

Akse

Banned
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

One other thing about the popularity of Baal run or CS run is the boss experience. All the super unique bosses and the other ones at the throne give so huge amount of experience that killing those quickly again and again is really the only smart way to level up these days.

This only happens in 1.10+ iirc. They added boss creatures and also the experience you get from them. I really see this while atm doing river of flame with my barb and I only get very little exp at 89(in classic) from normal monsters.. so I've really started to only kinda hunt for those bosses because the normal ones are waste of time (unless there are urdars). Back in 1.09 the leveling wasn't so dependable on killing those bosses because iirc there were less of the bosses in each area and also they didn't give so huge amount of exp.

So normal monsters and areas have become less interesting in terms of exp because CS and baal offers unique monsters and also the super uniques that always spawn there == lots of exp. + of course baal and diablo that are high levels and drop good loot + gives good exp for high level characters.
 

Kiroptus

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Its interesting that XP was never dealt fine in D2. Pre-1.10 there was more variation until everyone discovered Cow levels and xp leech. Then now, after 1.10 its all Baal Runs and sometimes a CS run here and there.

Whatever solution there is, somehow we can feel there is one to keep the game more playable at a steady flow and not so static as it is nowdays, its up to blizzard to brainstorm about that.
 

Akse

Banned
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Its interesting that XP was never dealt fine in D2. Pre-1.10 there was more variation until everyone discovered Cow levels and xp leech. Then now, after 1.10 its all Baal Runs and sometimes a CS run here and there.

Whatever solution there is, somehow we can feel there is one to keep the game more playable at a steady flow and not so static as it is nowdays, its up to blizzard to brainstorm about that.
Yeah I really hope they figure something out that will make us play in many different areas.



 

Transistor EMF

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

About my comment earlier, I was just kidding... so don't take it too seriously. After all we're all in the same boat fishing for ideas :)

Anyways, what about more epic challenges like Uber Tristam for endgame?
Brother Laz's median mod is an excellent model for challenge variety & potential.
 

Krugar

Banned
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Anyways, what about more epic challenges like Uber Tristam for endgame?
Brother Laz's median mod is an excellent model for challenge variety & potential.
Yup. This is where I would like Blizzard to focus. More variety in terms of farmable areas and mobs. Variety both in the number of available farmable targets, but also in the challenges they will provide.

I'm just not into this idea of some new system encouraging players to "play the game" when engaged in item farming. Come endgame, I always prefer meeting bosses and doing my item finding there. I also enjoy the occasional area farming.

There must be a concept of "MF lore" that builds on player knowledge of the game and establishes certain monsters and areas as item heavens. This has been a successful part of item finding games for over 20 years. Otherwise item finding will just become much like picking mushrooms on the forest. Variety has been added but at the cost of staleness and lack of originality. One will still be doing the same endless hack & slash, only this time he has no story to tell.


 

JonoLith

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

I'm am actually 100% opposed to this idea of simply creating a few more static areas for people to farm. The entire point of this thread was to say loudly and clearly that there is a large segment of the population that does not want exactly that.

I'm trying to say this clearly, in a game where random generation is so loudly toted, and where random encounters can really breathe life back into the franchise, simply telling people to go fight one of even ten baal encounters is it's death knell.

What the D3 dev team needs to be focusing on is the idea of exploration over farming. This was one of the few things that I truly missed from Diablo 1. Back in Diablo 1 your spells were tied to books, and books would be most reliably found from bookcases, which were in libraries, which were randomly generated. What this did is it created a sense in the players that they should take a walk around the entire level and take a look around just in case that bookcase is over there and it can level up your chain lightning.

This is what the Baal runs destroyed, the sense of exploration and treasure hunting that these kinds of games should represent. I will be more than happy if the best loot in the game drops off of a chest that is randomly generated in an Act 1 dungeon, or a Wardrobe that is randomly generated in an Act 3 dungeon, or anything that is randomly generated in any random location. Or if it came off of a random encounter that was generated.

Basically, what I'm saying is this. My challenge is to create a game where there is absolutely no static loot drops. I'm of the opinion that I should never hear people say "Let's go farm X". If that's what happens, then I believe the game to be a failure, because it hasn't done anything that it's ten year old predecessor hasn't already accomplished.

Blizzard has a wonderful opportunity here to show people how you make a dungeon crawler properly. It's not about creating a WoW raid, it's about a fun exploration with your friends. Static Loot will destroy that.
 

Krugar

Banned
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

The entire point of this thread was to say loudly and clearly that there is a large segment of the population that does not want exactly that.
Was it really?
Where's this "large segment of the population" that I can't see?


 

Knight_Wolf

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

I'm am actually 100% opposed to this idea of simply creating a few more static areas for people to farm. The entire point of this thread was to say loudly and clearly that there is a large segment of the population that does not want exactly that.
Same here :yes:



JonoLith said:
What the D3 dev team needs to be focusing on is the idea of exploration over farming.

I think Blizz is already on that lane like us, they made the random adventures thing to encourage exploration .. i really hope they expand upon that.


JonoLith said:
This is what the Baal runs destroyed, the sense of exploration and treasure hunting that these kinds of games should represent. I will be more than happy if the best loot in the game drops off of a chest that is randomly generated in an Act 1 dungeon, or a Wardrobe that is randomly generated in an Act 3 dungeon, or anything that is randomly generated in any random location. Or if it came off of a random encounter that was generated.

You know, i remember they did mention something new regarding the Chests ... something about special chests .. maybe they already got that idea you mentioned.

JonoLith said:
Basically, what I'm saying is this. My challenge is to create a game where there is absolutely no static loot drops. I'm of the opinion that I should never hear people say "Let's go farm X". If that's what happens, then I believe the game to be a failure, because it hasn't done anything that it's ten year old predecessor hasn't already accomplished.

Blizzard has a wonderful opportunity here to show people how you make a dungeon crawler properly. It's not about creating a WoW raid, it's about a fun exploration with your friends. Static Loot will destroy that.
Spot on ;)

Boss runs .. or even multiple boss runs (which D2 had, but Baal was the best) add nothing new to D3 and damage the goal the D3 dev team has set for their game (D3 being a team-play focused game), in short there is nothing new, exciting or interesting about boss runs to warrant its return in any way.


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Krugar said:
What about the 9001 people who aren't fine with it and are also quiet?
Hahaha, their fault, if they weren't pleased why did they stay silent ... those who area pleased feel no need to voice their opinion and they are right about that .. but those who don't agree need to say so in order to change things they don't like .. otherwise they don't count :smug:





Frankly Krugar .. there is something you aren't taking into account here ... allowing .. note .. "allowing" play-throughs to be as rewarding as boss runs doesn't mean boss runs are not possible or will be changed too dramatically (because the normal play-throughs is what got a boost in its drop rates) ... they will still be possible ... but people who don't like them will have ANOTHER option to hunt for gear other than being forced into boring monotonous and repetitive boss runs

And slowly over time people will realize how boring and awful boss runs are compared to the other option and switch over to anothe item hunting way because they have an option to (unlike D2 players who were stuck with boss runs if they wanted good gear).

Not to mention there was no balance at all between the gear and EXP people got form Baal and those people got from anywhere else .. what where the designers thinking really !!!?


 

Krugar

Banned
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Hahaha, their fault, if they weren't pleased why did they stay silent ... those who area pleased feel no need to voice their opinion and they are right about that .. but those who don't agree need to say so in order to change things they don't like .. otherwise they don't count
I just had to laugh at the initial post idea that he does represent a vast number of players. The vast majority of players is actually unaccounted for.

Frankly Krugar .. there is something you aren't taking into account here ... allowing .. note .. "allowing" play-throughs to be as rewarding as boss runs doesn't mean boss runs are not possible or will be changed too dramatically
Hmm... I seem to recall this wasn't the issue. There was an intention in your idea of forcing players off boss runs. If I read that wrong then I owe you a huge apology.

And slowly over time people will realize how boring and awful boss runs are compared to the other option and switch over to anothe item hunting way because they have an option to (unlike D2 players who were stuck with boss runs if they wanted good gear).
Wishful thinking. You will see, if they implement a system like the one you would want to see :)

As pointed out before (I believe by Bad Ash) players will always migrate to the easiest path. That's boss runs. And this is precisely why I believe the investment should be instead on making boss runs more interesting and less boring...

Ancient Kaa the Soulless One: How interesting would this had been. He spawns randomly on one of the false tombs. Having to search for him every time would make this an interesting run. The fact he is also one the the most powerful monsters in the game is yet another +1. What he lacks? good drop rates and an interesting TC.

Diablo: A much better TC and drop rates could turn Diablo into the boss of choice. The fact teleport couldn't help much here, would turn him into quite a very fun run.

Izual: Similar to Kaa for the fact one has to search for him. What he lacks? TC, drop rates and needs to be buffed.

These are the type of runs I would like to see more in D3 (and hopefully one day made into D2).

But, mind you, if I indeed read your idea the wrong way, I really have to apologize. Necessarily catering for all tastes (if possible and without damaging anything else) is always a good idea on my book.

EDIT: Thanks for the clarification SlechtWeerBeer. Indeed that's the point :)


 

Knight_Wolf

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Hmm... I seem to recall this wasn't the issue. There was an intention in your idea of forcing players off boss runs. If I read that wrong then I owe you a huge apology.
No need to apologize, maybe i needed to rephrase my idea in a better way.

As many said here .. there is no preventing boss runs , as long as there are bosses in the game they will surely have better drop rates than normal monsters and give more EXP .. other wise they don't deserve to be called bosses to begin with ... but few things has to be done.

1-Balance the EXP gain and item drop rates between all bosses (so it is hard to point at one and say this is the best to farm .. like Baal who was drastically superior in EXP and Item gain to anything in the game) and also between the bosses as a whole and all the monsters in the game ... which is something D2 lacked altogether (specially hi-level monsters in Hell and Nightmare difficulty .. they must have good drop rates .. not individually like bosses .. but combined as a whole)


2-By doing so the game give players the options to either hunt items by playing through the game as a whole few times or by running a boss a large number of times (both require serious time investments .. not only boss runs) ... both must be equally rewarding or at least close to each other .. that option was non existent in D2 .. want good gear .. you had no option but to spam run a boss .. which one .. Baal is the best .. and that was all there is to it in D2)


3-Making exploration equally viable to Boss runs (Combo-kill EXP bonus, Random adventures, Hi-level random chests, ... etc etc )

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And no matter what changes those who -somehow- like boss runs will go for it and do it over and over.

And those who don't like it will still have the option to explore the game and get rewarded for the time they invest in that as much as the boss runners (which shows how D2 was unfair to explorers .. grrr)


 

Turnip

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Id like things like those portals in act5 with the super chest at the end, however they should be more random with a lot more randomly dangerous enemies.
 

JonoLith

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Ok, perhaps I'm simply not explaining myself clearly enough. I'm just going to talk about this as if I'm actually playing it and go through what an average game of D3 should feel like, conceptually, to avoid the Baal Run Problem.

You start up a game of Diablo 3. It will start you in the town that you left off in in the previous game you were in, much like Diablo 2. You will immediately notice that there are several quests around town, for simplicities sake, let's say that there are 3 in this town. (There should be others in other towns, as well as in the game world.) These quests will be drawn from a pool of thousands of available quests, meaning that the quest that you receive will most likely be different then the one you just played, and the combination of quests you get will most certainly be different then any other combination you've gotten previously. (As a note; these quests will be tied to the game, not the player, so all players will receive the same quests from NPCs. This is simply to avoid a ton of problems with large amounts of players in a game, and to focus their attention.)

So the players set out. Keep in mind that the game world itself is always the same. The ravine, or crumbling bridge, or cave entrance will always remain static, so when a quest giver gives you directions to said areas, you will have become quite familiar with them. Of course, there will be potentially hundreds of these kinds of locations all over the game world, and it is possible that the quest you receive in act four might bring you to act one, two, or three. (Assuming four acts) This is, of course, to keep players from simply constantly going to the same exact location over and over and over and over again to wash, rinse, repeat it.

When the player sets out the first thing that he will notice, on the static game world map, is that the monsters/events on that game world map will be extremely varied. A location that was an alter with a talisman, or rune for you in the previous game may now be replaced with an alter that summons monsters, or perhaps there's a merchant there, or a random boss, or a series of traps; any of potentially thousands of encounters my be placed in any one spot at any one time, on this static game world map. The entire time you're on this map, you're encountering new and different things, all of which are viable to drop loot and experience for your character. And this is all just while on the way to do your quest; you're not even fully exploring, you're just going from point A to point B. (Of course there would need to be a discussion about Town Portals and Way Points at this point, but that's another thread entirely.)

So, after already encountering unexpected mobs/events/bosses/chests along the way, the player comes onto his destination, for sake of ease let's just say it is a cave entrance. The last time he was here this cave entrance was where "Jim the Magician" lived. However, in this game world it is housing "Harmony and Melody the Musical Demons!" When you go into the cave, it will be a completely different instance, that has been randomly generated. (So even if you were doing the "Jim the Magician" quest again, the dungeon would still be wildly different then the first time you were through.)

As you head down into the cave you will encounter randomized mobs/bosses/traps/chests/bookcases/ect/ect/ect/, all of which will be valuable to you, as the player, to check out, and see what is in every single nook and cranny of this cave. For all you know an unsearched passage could lead to a huge random boss encounter which will drop the item you've been looking for. Once you find the quest boss, you fight them and then return to town for quest loot, which will be comprised of some pretty hefty stuff. (I imagine that some of the best loot in the game will come from these kinds of quest encounters, or certainly through them)

So, using this style of play you see that the game play is consistently changing and shifting. Players are rewarded for looking in the nooks and crannies of the game instead of encouraged to ignore them in favor of a statically placed boss encounter.

And I'll make this perfectly clear; if you were to put the system in place, that I just explained above, but at the end of act four, on the static world map, put a static boss that dropped the best loot and gave the best XP, then you've simply wasted your developers time. You might as well have simply patched Diablo 2 and called it a day.

I'll say it again, Blizzard has a wonderful opportunity here to create a game where the static bosses are not where the best rewards come from, and rather then rewarding people for going to one spot millions of times, reward them for exploration and discovery.

I don't really understand why anyone would want Baal Runs again.
 

Akse

Banned
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Excellent post JonoLith and I really hope the game will have that kind of style in it. Something else to do than just mindless running.
 

Krugar

Banned
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

This is an impossible game to develop. Sorry, but I can't find any other words for it.
 

SlechtWeerBeer

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

This is an impossible game to develop. Sorry, but I can't find any other words for it.
Nigh impossible.
Diablo II got close already, with randomly generated areas. If you also linked different 'portals' (cave entrances, teleports, sewer entrances, cats) to random randomly generated areas, you've come quite close to what JonoLith mentioned. If you can randomise an entire area without having some impassable areas/open area edges, you most certainly can attach a random area to a set-in-place portal.


 

Knight_Wolf

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

This is an impossible game to develop. Sorry, but I can't find any other words for it.
Not at all, Technology has come a long way since D2, it is possible to create something close to what JonoLith envisions, not 100% but pretty close.

Actually the random adventures system planned in D3 (where random quests are placed around both the static outdoors and the random dungeons and are pulled from a huge pool of random adventures plus the fact that Blizz made a complex dungeon generator that generates complex dungeons makes it pretty easy to imagine what JonoLith talked about being made in D3).

It's all about Exploration VS Boss runs

Making exploration rewarding and fun through randomization is the way to make D3 a fresh and new experience ... not D2.5

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And also .. balancing the bosses is crucial so the static main ones aren't really that drastically more rewarding than other bosses or hi-level monsters ... actually the random or hidden bosses or mobs should be the most rewarding (actually Final Fantasy got it right .. the optional bosses like Ultima weapons in FF7 were x20 times more tough than the final boss and a hell lot more rewarding .. and reaching them required a good deal of exploration and fighting)


 

Jednowlosy

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

I don't like some of the suggestions in the thread. I don't want forced teamwork. I enjoy 1 man army. If I wanted teamwork and 30 people needed to kill a boss, I would play wow. I hate teams, I'm a loner. :)
 
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